Pompey Takeover Saga

I think it is a case of whether the HMRC can show that he moved the figures to suit.

Looking back at the time when it was in court the HMRC said they were owed 11m, it seems their figure jumped as dramatically as Pompeys debt. The moment the lady judge gavve them 7 days that quickly turned into 2 weeks the whole balance changed

 

Exactly.

 

The problem is the debt numbers being claimed. In the Guardian piece they say "The hearing revealed that although HMRC's claim went up from £17m to £37m, the club's administrators managed to reduce their claim to £24m," Which means even AA realises they were owed more then the £17m first thought. Which is an increase of 41%. That is a massive increase of debt owed.

I think if they go to court and all these numbers are thrown about the judge will go against them. It will proove they were trading when insolvent. Which would mean financial iregularities, which other clubs have been done by before.

It really now boils down to if HMRC still want to go after the club, the individuals or neither. If it is the individuals then the club will get away with it. If it is neither the club get's away with it. If they go after the club then this will drag on for a very longtime yet.

AA has past history of manipulating the amount of debt owned to unsecured creditors in administration, and has been censured in the High Court. Let me remind you

 

http://bankruptcyandinsolvency.blogspot.com/2010/05/more-problems-at-pompey-we-owe-you-x.html

 

They note, "Andronikou's past record as an insolvency practitioner has not been without controversy. In December 2008 he was found by the high court to have "failed to meet the standard to be expected of a reasonably competent insolvency practitioner" during an insolvency process."

 

It is abundantly clear that AA has been acting in Chanrai's interests rather than the creditors throughout this process. I believe there is no chance at all he will get away with this. I also find it impossible to believe that all but two creditors voted in favour of this CVA - a lot of the agents and larger creditors would surely have preferred the option presented in the alternative CVA proposal.

 

Anyone who thinks this story is over and Poopey have "got away with it" needs to keep their eyes on the bigger picture. HMRC screwed Leeds and I have no doubt they will pull the same trick to challenge Poopey on the 27th day.

"We will now carefully consider our position following the chairman's decision to reduce the amount of our claim for voting purposes."

 

So basically they rigged the vote then?

Even if they do manage to bundle this CVA through, they still have to afford it. They'll struggle if they spend money gambling on promotion.

"We will now carefully consider our position following the chairman's decision to reduce the amount of our claim for voting purposes."

 

So basically they rigged the vote then?

 

Only as much as HMRC adjusted the value of their claim

Only as much as HMRC adjusted the value of their claim

 

Do you really believe that?

Do you really believe that?

 

Well on the day of voting for go ahead for a CVA (the meeting a month ago) the HMRC just happens to find that we owe alot more money. So are they incompetent to have just found that money or just doing it to gain a veto. I know people here will claim they are whiter than white right now though

Seems as though there are a few new skates fans on here...

Only as much as HMRC adjusted the value of their claim

 

Or as much as Pompey inflated the size of their debt in just a few months?

just catching up on thread - but seen bbc headlines.

 

so they got away with it!

"We will now carefully consider our position following the chairman's decision to reduce the amount of our claim for voting purposes."

 

So basically they rigged the vote then?

 

Sounds that way to me... cheating skates!!!!!!!!!

Given that we are nearly 28 of posts on , can we safely assume that the cross dressing saints/skate fan (Im not sure if he is a skate or a saints fan) NickH has been right all along.

 

There is so much injustice and this is skate episode is yet more evidence of wrong doing

I will not rise to the bait Mr Warrior. Iam not a Pompey fan, but just been realistic in my assessments. Frustrated all the same by their flagrant cheating and abuse of decent people.

Lol

 

The past days this thread has sounded like an old Queen song

 

I want it all I want it now.....

 

 

This will just keep ambling along, nothing definitive, nothing cast in stone, just a gentle rolling action as the posts add up and the views soar towards the 2 million mark.

 

All good things come to those who wait, there are many many hands of cards yet to be played.

 

Stop stressing, toast can be served in oh so many ways and we haven't even got close to deciding whether to serve Stale or Fresh baked bread yet, let alone the type of bread or if it would be a Muffin or even a Croissant.

 

Sit back and enjoy, as a mate once wisely said. The troubel with the "Want it now" generation is that if they really want instant gratification they should just use their right hands, but it is never as enjoyable as a long long long build up and carefully timed release

Well on the day of voting for go ahead for a CVA (the meeting a month ago) the HMRC just happens to find that we owe alot more money. So are they incompetent to have just found that money or just doing it to gain a veto. I know people here will claim they are whiter than white right now though

The massaging of the figures was started by AA. He managed to increase the debt hugely from the statement of accounts, which thereby sidelined HMRC. They then responded by increasing their debt, to maintain their percentage of the unsecured debt.

 

Seems fairly sensible, unless you are of the opinion that only the administrator is allowed to manipulate the levels of debt.

AA has past history of manipulating the amount of debt owned to unsecured creditors in administration, and has been censured in the High Court. Let me remind you

 

http://bankruptcyandinsolvency.blogspot.com/2010/05/more-problems-at-pompey-we-owe-you-x.html

 

 

 

It is abundantly clear that AA has been acting in Chanrai's interests rather than the creditors throughout this process. I believe there is no chance at all he will get away with this. I also find it impossible to believe that all but two creditors voted in favour of this CVA - a lot of the agents and larger creditors would surely have preferred the option presented in the alternative CVA proposal.

 

Anyone who thinks this story is over and Poopey have "got away with it" needs to keep their eyes on the bigger picture. HMRC screwed Leeds and I have no doubt they will pull the same trick to challenge Poopey on the 27th day.

I agree that it is surprising that the HMRC were the only ones to vote against it, but remember those said agents dealt with them in the first place. I doubt they wish for the truth to be aired either. Taking a dive for 'the team' I suggest. Forget not, there is a lot of future business with Pompey /HR and co in the future to make it up

From what HRMC have said I think we can expect them to appeal, which should lead to a Leeds style situation where it is not resolved before the start of the season and they get the -17.

Lol

 

The past days this thread has sounded like an old Queen song

 

I want it all I want it now.....

 

 

This will just keep ambling along, nothing definitive, nothing cast in stone, just a gentle rolling action as the posts add up and the views soar towards the 2 million mark.

 

All good things come to those who wait, there are many many hands of cards yet to be played.

 

Stop stressing, toast can be served in oh so many ways and we haven't even got close to deciding whether to serve Stale or Fresh baked bread yet, let alone the type of bread or if it would be a Muffin or even a Croissant.

 

Sit back and enjoy, as a mate once wisely said. The troubel with the "Want it now" generation is that if they really want instant gratification they should just use their right hands, but it is never as enjoyable as a long long long build up and carefully timed release

I'm left handed.

The outcome you seem to be alluding to, does seem to be losing its excitement. I've a feeling that the excitement has gone as the font doors slammed and somebody has come home early

From what HRMC have said I think we can expect them to appeal, which should lead to a Leeds style situation where it is not resolved before the start of the season and they get the -17.

I agree that the HMRC will have to make an appeal especially after their statement alludes to a fix.

Perhaps Phils (I think it was him) position was that Chanrai and co want the club to fold, and by it going back to court they could get their way

I agree that it is surprising that the HMRC were the only ones to vote against it, but remember those said agents dealt with them in the first place. I doubt they wish for the truth to be aired either. Taking a dive for 'the team' I suggest. Forget not, there is a lot of future business with Pompey /HR and co in the future to make it up

 

Is it really surprising? These debts can be off set against tax, so might not end up being that much. And when the phoenix company arises from the ashes, who do you think will get the business?

Is it really surprising? These debts can be off set against tax, so might not end up being that much. And when the phoenix company arises from the ashes, who do you think will get the business?

I said the same a while ago.Terry the builder (a pompey fan) was owed something like 50k. That included his profit for the work (not sure of the vat). Therefore the cost to him personally was low ,especially after he can put it against his tax. He was never going to bring the club down, but perhaps use the story to get more business due to his hard luck story ,without hurting his club

I think we might be missing a vital point in all of this.

 

I don't think HMRC per se has anything against Pompey's debts, other than they want what is theirs.

I think they do have a axe to grind with the individuals surrounding PCFC at the moment. I believe they are going after Android, Storrie, Redknapp, Mandaric and even Gaydamak.

 

This thing is far from over, and as dubai_phil said - sit back and enjoy the show.

Three creditors rejected the CVA:

 

HMRC (obviously)

Steve ****er - Tommy Smith's agent

 

and....

 

 

Paul Hart

I have to agree. This thread is chock full of definites that have turned out to be anything but. If I was a P*mpey fan I would be laughing at the undeserved arrogance of most of this thread by now.

 

Finally, thank you - I happily (along with nickn) pointed this out months ago, only to be shot down by the resident insolvency experts.

I agree that it is surprising that the HMRC were the only ones to vote against it, but remember those said agents dealt with them in the first place. I doubt they wish for the truth to be aired either. Taking a dive for 'the team' I suggest. Forget not, there is a lot of future business with Pompey /HR and co in the future to make it up

 

We know HMRC voted against and we know there was someone owed 40k who voted against. Griffin are supposed to represent someone who I assume voted against also and if they went far enough to get Griffin involved I guess they are not that small a creditor.

 

What doesnt add up is how putting these 3 together still only equals 19% of the vote. AA said a while back that HMRC have around 21% alone so it is blatently obvious that margins have been moved to suit. The question is was it done legally?

 

HMRC's response suggests it will be challenged but I will be suprised if they wait till the 11th hour to do so. I would expect something fairly shortly to make sure they are not let off the hook. The ammount it will cost to drag things through the court compared to the amount they will lose now and in future based on the measly 20% means they will stick to there guns IMO and take things as far as they possibly can. They always have the chance later when the liquidation process investigates things further so I would have thought they are in the win win situation at the mo.

 

HMRC's response suggests it will be challenged but I will be suprised if they wait till the 11th hour to do so. I would expect something fairly shortly to make sure they are not let off the hook. .

If the new manager is not unveiled today after all ,perhaps the wheels have been put into motion.

The toaster might not be working at the moment.......But I am led to believe it only needs a new fuse.

Finally, thank you - I happily (along with nickn) pointed this out months ago, only to be shot down by the resident insolvency experts.

 

Tommi, we do have some top insolvency experts on here, but they must be as confused as many others how this has panned out. Im certain any other business would be dogmeat by now. I respect the others views but have felt all along that there are dark forces at play.

I look forward to being proved wrong, as that means Pomey will have indeed paid for their transgressions and the memories they have enjoyed.

Finally, thank you - I happily (along with nickn) pointed this out months ago, only to be shot down by the resident insolvency experts.

 

To be fair, its taken AA to massage the figures to put HMRC below the 25% which changed the expected outcome. Had HMRC stayed above the 25% I guess much of whats been suggested from the "experts" would have been more acurate.

The toaster might not be working at the moment.......But I am led to believe it only needs a new fuse.

the trouble is Frank Spencer seems to have been given the job to fix it

The toaster might not be working at the moment.......But I am led to believe it only needs a new fuse.

maybe they will get a refund and buy one of these http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.204-9069.aspx

Three creditors rejected the CVA:

 

HMRC (obviously)

Steve ****er - Tommy Smith's agent

 

and....

 

 

Paul Hart

 

LOL Paul Hart. But why isn't he and Smith's agent footballing creditors?

I haven't been following this at all this week as i am revising for an exam tomorrow, can someone fill me in. From what i can see i guess they have managed to get the CVA accepted (****z), have they been bought out ??

 

Also, if their fixtures have been released i can only assume they have got their golden share ??

HMRC, who oppose the Company Voluntary Arrangement (CVA) which will see non football creditors receive only 20p for every pound they are owed, are not backing down. They have 28 days to appeal but it is understood they are keen to avoid a court fight against Portsmouth's administrators.

 

HMRC said in a statement: "HMRC notes that the result of today's vote was to accept the CVA proposals. We will now be carefully considering our position.

 

"HMRC stands by the full amount of its claim. We will now carefully consider our position following chairman's decision to reduce the amount of our claim for voting purposes."

 

HMRC are challenging the Premier League and Football League's rule that 'football creditors' get priority in having their debts paid off first and in full.

 

The statement added: "HMRC believes the so called "football creditors rule" is unfair, unlawful and unacceptable.

 

"It cannot be right for millions of pounds worth of assets and income of Portsmouth FC to be earmarked for payment of football debts in full while other creditors - including the public purse - have been offered a mere 20p in the pound over five years."

 

Andrew Andronikou, the man appointed by an insolvency court to be Pompey's administrator, only gave HMRC voting rights for £24million debt rather than £37million, in effect preventing them from blocking the CVA vote which needed 75% of creditors in favour.

 

He claims the other money relates to image rights and should be not be considered part of the club's debts.

LOL Paul Hart. But why isn't he and Smith's agent footballing creditors?

They are, but they still get a vote as an unsecured creditor. I guess they've only rejected it either on a point of principle or perhaps with the thought of the legal challenge to the football creditors rule in mind.

If the new manager is not unveiled today after all ,perhaps the wheels have been put into motion.

 

I was thinking about possible transfer embargo's and so on but I believe that as the CVA was initially approved then the FL will not stop Poopy moving forward for now. It might mean heavier penaltys later should it all turn around again but based on what has happened today they will probably treat it as if its all above board and legit.

 

So they probably will hire a manager and start getting in a few loans and they may even renew some contracts. I dont know how strong those contracts will be though if HMRC challenge and win as the FL may have to back track.

 

Anyone know what happened to Leeds? Did they sign anyone in the cooling off period?

the trouble is Frank Spencer seems to have been given the job to fix it

 

I thought he was in charge of the administration?

Whats for tea Nickyboy,

Oh and would you like small, Medium, or biggerboy size shirt.

 

 

er Mods there ain't no smiley up yours things

Does anyone know ( roughly ) how much they will have to pay back if it,s 100% football debt and 20% for all other creditors ?

Also way has the playing staff only partly been sold off prior to the pay back offer being made to the creditors ?

And people talk about AA as if he's some sort of Muppet. He appears to be doing a bloody good job for them.

It's a bit premature to say that. Let's wait....

 

c**ts

Cannot f*cking believe that the slimey bastards got away with the CVA vote, just got to hope now that HMRC pulls out all the stops to get the sh1tty little club liquidated.

I think it all comes down to whether it is image rights tax (not legally enforcable) or fines from HMRC (legally enforcable) as to whether HMRC have a case here. If it is the image rights the AA will vigorously contest it because in law HMRC cannot enforce them.

Even if the image rights tax is contestable, the HMRC fines component would be harder to contest. Also, if AA says HMRC only are owed 24m, and that represents only 18.7% of the unsecured debt, a little maths implies that AA is claiming the total unsecured debt is now 128m. So HMRC themselves will contest that outrageous figure.

 

In summary: HMRC will probably fight to reduce the 128m total unsecured debt figure, and at the same time increase their claim to higher than 24m. A little tweak at both ends will get them to 25%.

 

 

Someone could have a lot of fun with that and photoshop. You could have a competition.

Surely they can't sign new players, offer existing players contracts or appoint a manager during the 28 cooling off period?

 

So the transfer embargo can't be lifted on 1st July. Would have to wait until cooling off period has expired without incident on 15th July.

Good question. For a normal club it would appear so. But we know the CHEATING BASTARDS somehow break all the rules.

Finally, thank you - I happily (along with nickn) pointed this out months ago, only to be shot down by the resident insolvency experts.

 

Yes, there are resident insolvency experts on this forum, posters like Clapham Saint seem to know what they are talking about. In the absence of any evidence to show that they are talking bunk, which I have not seen so far over a long period of their contributions, I'm inclined to believe their predicted outcomes rather than what that bent chancer Android says.

 

I'm sure that Joe Bloggs Jeans bloke and his family thought that they would get away with the Android massaging the debt figures to edge out HMRC too. Pompey are at that same stage of the CVA and some believe that the Android has pulled a fast one again and got away with it.

 

It is encouraging that HMRC have already made it clear that they are considering their position. Somebody believes that they will not relish crossing swords with the Android, but IMO they would love to have him by the balls in court again, proving that he is not only incompetent, but also with luck that he has acted illegally somewhere along the line.

 

It has also been suggested that HMRC won't hang around in their challenge, giving early notice. But surely it will benefit them to string it along right up to the line, utilising the time to engage legal counsel to go through everything with a fine tooth comb to achieve maximum effect of their courtroom broadside.

 

As for whether the FL lift the signings embargo before the 28 day appeals period has expired, then they might well have egg all over their faces if the appeal succeeds and the CVA is overturned and HMRC's % is deemed to be in excess of the 25%. What happens to those signings or loans in that event?

If your looking for the thing that dosn't fit nick, try this...

 

Lampitt told the club's official website: "This is a hugely significant day for the club - I'm very pleased the vote has gone through.

 

"The deal reached between the administrators and the creditors provides us with the first step towards the rebuilding of the club.

 

"One of my tasks is to bring stability to the club so that it has a long-term future. This should make it a more attractive proposition for new investment. I believe this has to the best way to bring long-term success."

 

Where does he fit in?

Tony Husband on BBC South Today just said that someone from HMRC during the meeting asked in front of everyone why their debt was reduced in voting rights AA refused to comment. Very strange not to do so if he has a valid reason that he is comfortable about. Why not just say in front of everyone at the meeting?

in the current economic climate i think the Revenue must pursue this debt, cut backs are being announced every day and a football club owes the the country money, all future Sky Money should be allocated to creditors not used to run a business.

I said the same a while ago.Terry the builder (a pompey fan) was owed something like 50k. That included his profit for the work (not sure of the vat). Therefore the cost to him personally was low ,especially after he can put it against his tax. He was never going to bring the club down, but perhaps use the story to get more business due to his hard luck story ,without hurting his club

 

Understand that Terry the builder is putting up a substantial extension to Storrie-Tellers pad at Hayling Island

 

I suppose he can set off the loss at PFC against the revenue from this deal!!

Some of the skates reckon HMRC have cut a deal with AA and thus will not be challenging. Can't see it myself but I would be livid if true.