View Poll Results: Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

Voters
146. You may not vote on this poll
  • Leave Before - Leave Now

    31 21.23%
  • Leave Before - Remain Now

    8 5.48%
  • Leave Before - Not Bothered Now

    2 1.37%
  • Remain Before - Remain Now

    82 56.16%
  • Remain Before - Leave Now

    5 3.42%
  • Remain Before - Not Bothered Now

    0 0%
  • Not Bothered Before - Leave Now

    3 2.05%
  • Not Bothered Before - Remain Now

    4 2.74%
  • I've never been bothered - Why am I on this Thread?

    2 1.37%
  • No second Ref - 2016 was Definitive and Binding

    9 6.16%
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Thread: Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk

  1. #10301

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    It's unreal - he tells people what he wants in one breath, then posts something contradicting that in the next. It seems to be a Brexiteer issue though - the inability to argue consistently and coherently about a single topic, ignoring all evidence and relying on their own, usually flawed and always bias, interpretation of the situation.
    The contradictions are difficult to paper over, even for the ideologues.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8757161.html

    And to think Jihadi John took exception to the prediction that the election of Trump would make free trade more difficult and possibly complicate the UK's post-Brexit trade policy. He really is the anti-Nostradamus

  2. #10302

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    The contradictions are difficult to paper over, even for the ideologues.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8757161.html

    And to think Jihadi John took exception to the prediction that the election of Trump would make free trade more difficult and possibly complicate the UK's post-Brexit trade policy. He really is the anti-Nostradamus
    Liam Fox is saying big countries can bully small ones in trade and the UK will face an unequal struggle. Hm, bummer. If only we could be in some big powerful block that can stand up to the US.

  3. #10303

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Liam Fox is saying big countries can bully small ones in trade and the UK will face an unequal struggle. Hm, bummer. If only we could be in some big powerful block that can stand up to the US.
    Exactly. Its no wonder that Fox wants to go down the multilateral route. Countries like US don’t want competition from UK financial services or its lawyers and accountants and the UK doesn't have the clout to make headway on these issues. Of course what Fox doesn't say is that the Doha Round made liberalisation of trade in services a priority backe in 2001. After a decade and more of fruitless and fractured negotiations, the Nairobi Ministerial Conference of 2015 basically put Doha out of its misery. The idea that the UK and Liam Fox are now going to revive this agenda through the WTO is simply fantastical thinking.

  4. #10304

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    [QUOTE=shurlock;2710286]The contradictions are difficult to paper over, even for the ideologues.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8757161.html

    From the article "Without specifically mentioning the US strategy, Mr Fox will say: “Economic nationalism may look like an attractive shelter from the winds of change that have come with the era of globalisation – and even more from the technological revolution in which we find ourselves – but it is a mirage.

    What is this all about? Really?

  5. #10305

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Honestly Wes, you're the epitome of a sad sap who sees only what he wants to. The Tories promised to leave the single market and the customs union and promised to negotiate full access to the single market and join a customs union - so pretty much a blank cheque to do what they like. Talking of Tory manifesto promises how about the one on immigration from outside the UK and bringing it down to under 100,000? Since then its gone up from 170,000 to 270,000.
    You appear to be confusing access to the single market with membership of it. Anybody can have access to it via WTO terms, but without having to endure the so-called four freedoms which constituted some of the main reasons for leaving the EU. Ditto the distinction between a Customs Union and the Customs Union. We will not join any Customs Union arrangement that prevents us having the freedom to arrange our own trade deals with the faster developing areas of the World outside of the EU.

    I note that your response didn't mention your beloved Norway option, which seems to have hit the buffers. But then again, that option is only what you you wanted to see, the sad sap option rather than the most realistic one.

    Regarding the immigration issue in the Conservative manifesto, I agree that it has been a fiasco since May was Home Secretary. My views have been clear on it in connection with the Brexit issue and with more recent party policy, that there should be no preference shown to immigrants from the EU above that from the rest of the World and that there should be strict controls on who comes in on the basis of our need for their skills and qualifications.

  6. #10306

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    There will either be some sort of fudge based on May's worst of all deals with a form of words inserted into a legal codicil on the backstop that satisfies us and the EU, or a hasty attempt to go for a Canada +++ deal with a backstop fudge, or we will leave on WTO terms.
    Ahhh, you can bask in the glory of the miserable deal you helped to create. Brexiteers can moan all they like about being betrayed by an incompetent government.
    Cameron offered you a gun, Farage & Johnson told you it was loaded with money. You can't blame May or the remain camp because you decided to pull the trigger.
    We are where we are, in a sh!tty position thanks to a naive decision made by an ill-informed or just plain ignorant population.

  7. #10307

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    It is not going to be a customs union and single market, as both would go against the Conservative election manifesto and the single market was ruled out by Labour's and would mean that both parties will totally have lost the trust of the electorate for years to come and would suffer the consequences. You obviously still are clinging on to the hope of your beloved Norway option, but that isn't going to happen, so at least some charity will benefit from our £50 bet on it. There will either be some sort of fudge based on May's worst of all deals with a form of words inserted into a legal codicil on the backstop that satisfies us and the EU, or a hasty attempt to go for a Canada +++ deal with a backstop fudge, or we will leave on WTO terms.

    Why bother to quote somebody when you totally misrepresent what they said? That's just completely ridiculous and pointless.
    If both main parties go against their manifesto pledge, how do you think both parties will lose out? There is no-one to take their place.

  8. #10308

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    The contradictions are difficult to paper over, even for the ideologues.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8757161.html

    And to think Jihadi John took exception to the prediction that the election of Trump would make free trade more difficult and possibly complicate the UK's post-Brexit trade policy. He really is the anti-Nostradamus
    The 'Alex Crook' of Brexit predictions, if you will.

  9. #10309

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You appear to be confusing access to the single market with membership of it. Anybody can have access to it via WTO terms, but without having to endure the so-called four freedoms which constituted some of the main reasons for leaving the EU. Ditto the distinction between a Customs Union and the Customs Union. We will not join any Customs Union arrangement that prevents us having the freedom to arrange our own trade deals with the faster developing areas of the World outside of the EU.

    I note that your response didn't mention your beloved Norway option, which seems to have hit the buffers. But then again, that option is only what you you wanted to see, the sad sap option rather than the most realistic one.

    Regarding the immigration issue in the Conservative manifesto, I agree that it has been a fiasco since May was Home Secretary. My views have been clear on it in connection with the Brexit issue and with more recent party policy, that there should be no preference shown to immigrants from the EU above that from the rest of the World and that there should be strict controls on who comes in on the basis of our need for their skills and qualifications.
    Buctootim didn't say access. He said full access Les. I'm also intrigued by your insistence on an independent trade policy. When did it become such a hot topic for you? I can understand your obsession with FoTM (though you're wrong to say that its uncontrolled freedom of movement of the citizens), the ECJ (though supervisory and enforcement mechanisms are a sine qua non of deep and comprehensive free trade which I thought you support) and the budget (though those mechanisms need to be adequately funded and the size of the budget is peanuts in the grand of scheme of things). But why are you so transfixed with an independent trade policy. It never featured highly in traditional eurosceptic arguments and is arguably pretty secondary to Brexit voters in the North. Out of all May's red lines, it would appear to be the one on which both sides could find a compromise.
    Last edited by shurlock; 01-02-2019 at 11:45 AM.

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Its going to be customs union and single market. Its just an absolute waste how much damage has been done getting there.
    There is absolutely zero chance of us remaining in the single market, unless we get an opt out on free movement.

    Customs union, maybe only for the short/Med term.

    Being a new loyal party member I had an interesting conversation with a life long member trying to tap me up for some door knocking ( I told him to **** off, I’ve got better things to do). Gathering traction with right minded people is the following as a last resort to save May’s turd; Agree to Corbyns permanent CU to get the deal over the line.

    How permanent is permanent. I know that sounds ridiculous but bare with me. The thinking is you can’t get out of the back stop because it’s designed to be temporary and is a fallback option, that nobody wants to use. A “permanent “ arrangement has to have some withdrawal mechanism. Perversely, it could be easier to get out of a permanent CU than a temporary back stop. There’s nothing to stop the next Tory manifesto containing the commitment to withdraw from it.

    I know people are going to say that a permanent CU is that, permanent. But it can’t be. If Labour are seriously saying that we have to remain in a CU for forever and a day, what happens if The EU agree a version of TTIP in 30 years time, that opens up the NHS to US private firms ( in the CU but not part of The EU we wouldn’t have a veto), what if The EU are dominated by far right politicians in 2050, do we have to stay in? Of course not, if Government have a mandate they’ll be able to withdraw from it. Once the “people’s vote” losers disappear and frauds like Wollaston, Grieve, Sourbry & Boles are deselected, a real Tory can finish the job.


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  11. #10311

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    I note that your response didn't mention your beloved Norway option, which seems to have hit the buffers. But then again, that option is only what you you wanted to see, the sad sap option rather than the most realistic one.
    Far from hitting the buffers the final deal will be much closer to Norway+ than your 'Leave on WTO terms'

  12. #10312

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    There is absolutely zero chance of us remaining in the single market, unless we get an opt out on free movement.

    Customs union, maybe only for the short/Med term.

    Being a new loyal party member I had an interesting conversation with a life long member trying to tap me up for some door knocking ( I told him to **** off, I’ve got better things to do). Gathering traction with right minded people is the following as a last resort to save May’s turd; Agree to Corbyns permanent CU to get the deal over the line.

    How permanent is permanent. I know that sounds ridiculous but bare with me. The thinking is you can’t get out of the back stop because it’s designed to be temporary and is a fallback option, that nobody wants to use. A “permanent “ arrangement has to have some withdrawal mechanism. Perversely, it could be easier to get out of a permanent CU than a temporary back stop. There’s nothing to stop the next Tory manifesto containing the commitment to withdraw from it.

    I know people are going to say that a permanent CU is that, permanent. But it can’t be. If Labour are seriously saying that we have to remain in a CU for forever and a day, what happens if The EU agree a version of TTIP in 30 years time, that opens up the NHS to US private firms ( in the CU but not part of The EU we wouldn’t have a veto), what if The EU are dominated by far right politicians in 2050, do we have to stay in? Of course not, if Government have a mandate they’ll be able to withdraw from it. Once the “people’s vote” losers disappear and frauds like Wollaston, Grieve, Sourbry & Boles are deselected, a real Tory can finish the job.


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    Utterly clueless.

    Opening up the NHS to US private firms and the regulatory issues it raises have nothing to do with the CU.

  13. #10313

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    There is absolutely zero chance of us remaining in the single market, unless we get an opt out on free movement.

    Customs union, maybe only for the short/Med term.

    Being a new loyal party member I had an interesting conversation with a life long member trying to tap me up for some door knocking ( I told him to **** off, I’ve got better things to do). Gathering traction with right minded people is the following as a last resort to save May’s turd; Agree to Corbyns permanent CU to get the deal over the line.

    How permanent is permanent. I know that sounds ridiculous but bare with me. The thinking is you can’t get out of the back stop because it’s designed to be temporary and is a fallback option, that nobody wants to use. A “permanent “ arrangement has to have some withdrawal mechanism. Perversely, it could be easier to get out of a permanent CU than a temporary back stop. There’s nothing to stop the next Tory manifesto containing the commitment to withdraw from it.

    I know people are going to say that a permanent CU is that, permanent. But it can’t be. If Labour are seriously saying that we have to remain in a CU for forever and a day, what happens if The EU agree a version of TTIP in 30 years time, that opens up the NHS to US private firms ( in the CU but not part of The EU we wouldn’t have a veto), what if The EU are dominated by far right politicians in 2050, do we have to stay in? Of course not, if Government have a mandate they’ll be able to withdraw from it. Once the “people’s vote” losers disappear and frauds like Wollaston, Grieve, Sourbry & Boles are deselected, a real Tory can finish the job.
    I don't disagree about the 'permanent' customs union. It can be permanent until a government decides to ditch it, unlike the backstop.

    Re the single market it will be dressed up differently but we will effectively be a member albeit in different clothes. What May will do is adopt restrictions on movement currently allowed within the single market rules and present them as some great victory. It will be some or all of:

    1. Tighter control of EU migration into the UK by applying current EU rules, which state that migrants must prove that they are either working, actively seeking work or self-sufficient. Otherwise, they can be removed after three months. Other EU countries operate a worker registration system to implement this. The UK would require EU migrants to register with their local authority. Those without jobs will be required to return to their country of origin.

    2. Proper enforcement of current migration rules by giving more resources to border control and stricter labour market controls to address unscrupulous employers using illegal labour practices to encourage people-trafficking and illegal immigration.

    3. Recruitment agencies will be banned from hiring directly from abroad and new jobs first be offered to local unemployed people.

    4. A national identity system using new technology to identify illegal migration.

    5. Ensure that companies bringing in workers from abroad pay at the local rate. An “emergency brake” system applied in case of high inflows.

    6. New funds to help communities manage the impact of rapid population change.
    Last edited by buctootim; 01-02-2019 at 12:20 PM.

  14. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    There is absolutely zero chance of us remaining in the single market, unless we get an opt out on free movement.

    Customs union, maybe only for the short/Med term.
    An interesting press release from the German think-tank Ifo Institute:

    The authors of a report released by EconPol Europe have urged the UK and EU to drop the backstop solution for Northern Ireland and instead lift the time limit on the provisional agreement while working on an ambitioned customs union. In the report, released today, the group of prominent European economists have called on the UK government and European Commission to rethink their ‘red lines’ and return to the negotiating table, adding: “A hard Brexit is in no one’s interest and would cause irreparable political and economic damage.”

    The authors* - Gabriel J. Felbermayr (LMU, Ifo Institute), Clemens Fuest (LMU, Ifo Institute), Hans Gersbach (ETH Zurich and chairman of the Board of Academic Advisors to the German BMWi), Albrecht O. Ritschl (LSE), Marcel Thum (TU Dresden, Ifo Institute, and chairman of the Advisory Board to the German BMF) and Martin T. Braml (Ifo Institute) –suggest a minimum three-month extension will be necessary to establish a European Customs Association.

    “We propose a model for the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union for the post-Brexit era that ensures close economic ties and avoids a hard Irish border,” they say. “Our aim is not to define a first-best solution but rather a politically feasible approach that minimizes economic costs.”

    The model proposes:

    • The backstop provision in the withdrawal agreement is dropped.
    • The United Kingdom permanently delegates all trade policy matters in goods to a newly created European Customs Association (ECA) in which the EU is also a member. Neither the EU nor the UK pursues independent trade policies, and the ECA represents them the World Trade Organization (WTO) in the same way as the EU has done until now for all 28 EU members.
    • The UK has voting rights in the ECA, as do all other member states. Together with the other members of the ECA, it mandates the EU Commission to negotiate trade agreements with third parties.
    • Decisions are taken with a double majority as defined in the Lisbon Treaty, and the European Court of Justice (in an extended form including all participating countries) continues to supervise all law- and policy-making in the field of trade.
    • The ECA covers all ‘classical‘ areas of trade policy, such as tariffs, quotas, rules of origin, trade defense, etc. On these issues, the EU has exclusive competence.
    • Areas in which the EU has no exclusive competence and in which countries have veto rights (trade in services, intellectual property, direct foreign investment, audiovisual and cultural services, and social, educational and health services), should not fall under the ECA. During a transition period, the pertinent provisions in the EU treaties continue to apply. For the future, arrangements in these areas are made by means of one or several supplementary bilateral agreements.
    • In existing trade agreements with third parties, provisions pertaining to ‘classical‘ areas or areas covered by bilateral agreements continue to apply to the UK, as well as those currently or in future negotiated


  15. #10315

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    An interesting press release from the German think-tank Ifo Institute:
    Sounds a lot like what Corbyn is proposing on the CU (to the extent you can elicit any detail from him). Alas the swivels probably wouldn't buy it.
    Last edited by shurlock; 01-02-2019 at 12:31 PM.

  16. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    I don't disagree about the 'permanent' customs union. It can be permanent until a government decides to ditch it, unlike the backstop.

    Re the single market it will be dressed up differently but we will effectively be a member albeit in different clothes. What May will do is adopt restrictions on movement currently allowed within the single market rules and present them as some great victory. It will be some or all of:

    1. Tighter control of EU migration into the UK by applying current EU rules, which state that migrants must prove that they are either working, actively seeking work or self-sufficient. Otherwise, they can be removed after three months. Other EU countries operate a worker registration system to implement this. The UK would require EU migrants to register with their local authority. Those without jobs will be required to return to their country of origin.

    2. Proper enforcement of current migration rules by giving more resources to border control and stricter labour market controls to address unscrupulous employers using illegal labour practices to encourage people-trafficking and illegal immigration.

    3. Recruitment agencies will be banned from hiring directly from abroad and new jobs first be offered to local unemployed people.

    4. A national identity system using new technology to identify illegal migration.

    5. Ensure that companies bringing in workers from abroad pay at the local rate. An “emergency brake” system applied in case of high inflows.

    6. New funds to help communities manage the impact of rapid population change.
    Turkish EU affairs minister Volkan Bozkir threatened that Turkey would leave the CU in 2014 over TTIP, so it’s entirely feasible that a Trade deal could be the catalyst for Labour withdrawal from their permanent CU.

    Perhaps I wasn’t clear, but the “permanent “ CU the Brixiters sign up to would replace the customs arrangements in the Back stop, not come into effect on Independence Day. There would still be a transition, but more importantly for the border, the elements of the SM the Back stop gives the island of Ireland remain.

    Everything is then up for grabs during the negotiations about the future arrangement. Obviously, we’d be in a weaker position than I’d like, but no weaker than we would be under Mays turd. The key thing is we’re out, or certainly further out than we’ve been for 40 years. Following an election , a new leader, less DUP influence , less turncoats, and a bigger mandate and we can finish the job.


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  17. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Turkish EU affairs minister Volkan Bozkir threatened that Turkey would leave the CU in 2014 over TTIP, so it’s entirely feasible that a Trade deal could be the catalyst for Labour withdrawal from their permanent CU.

    Perhaps I wasn’t clear, but the “permanent “ CU the Brixiters sign up to would replace the customs arrangements in the Back stop, not come into effect on Independence Day.
    I didn't think I'd be saying this, but I feel closer to Corbyn's plan than May's.

  18. #10318

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    An interesting press release from the German think-tank Ifo Institute:
    “A hard Brexit is in no one’s interest and would cause irreparable political and economic damage".

  19. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    I didn't think I'd be saying this, but I feel closer to Corbyn's plan than May's.
    That’s because Jezzas a Brexiter and Mays not.

    The other positive about this plan is that May will probably have to commit to leaving office pretty soon afterwards. I’d imagine Brexiters will demand that in return for their vote.


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  20. #10320

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    If both main parties go against their manifesto pledge, how do you think both parties will lose out? There is no-one to take their place.
    So we are stuck with the two party system for ever more, are we? Currently there is also the Lib Dems and UKIP. And as there had also been the Liberals, the SDP and the Referendum Party historically, the impetus for one or more alternative groupings consisting of splinter groups breaking away from the Conservative and Labour Party's will be ripe following the betrayal that a large part of the electorate will feel if Brexit is not delivered properly. This has already happened in several EU countries, so no reason why it shouldn't happen here.
    Last edited by Wes Tender; 01-02-2019 at 01:10 PM.

  21. #10321

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    So we are stuck with the two party system for ever more, are we? Currently there is also the Lib Dems and UKIP. And as there had also been the Liberals, the SDP and the Referendum Party historically, the impetus for one or more alternative groupings consisting of splinter groups breaking away from the Conservative and Labour Party's will be ripe following the betrayal that a large part of the electorate will feel if Brexit is not delivered properly. This has already happened in several EU countries, so no reason why it shouldn't happen here.
    Because FPTP creates incentives for a two-party system. Duverger’s Law pal. Many EU countries operate PR.

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    I’m sure just heard on the radio driving home that, even in the event of a no deal, there will be no requirement for Brits to need visas to visit EU nations.

    Is that right?

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    A
    Quote Originally Posted by Plastic View Post
    Ahhh, you can bask in the glory of the miserable deal you helped to create. Brexiteers can moan all they like about being betrayed by an incompetent government.
    Cameron offered you a gun, Farage & Johnson told you it was loaded with money. You can't blame May or the remain camp because you decided to pull the trigger.
    We are where we are, in a sh!tty position thanks to a naive decision made by an ill-informed or just plain ignorant population.
    This in spades, and the ideological leavers are now rewriting the history of their own campaign, sadly they seem to have as many different versions as there are leavers.

  24. #10324

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plastic View Post
    Ahhh, you can bask in the glory of the miserable deal you helped to create. Brexiteers can moan all they like about being betrayed by an incompetent government.
    Cameron offered you a gun, Farage & Johnson told you it was loaded with money. You can't blame May or the remain camp because you decided to pull the trigger.
    We are where we are, in a sh!tty position thanks to a naive decision made by an ill-informed or just plain ignorant population.
    I helped create the miserable deal? I'm afraid that I wasn't part of the negotiations, that was May and her Remainer advisors and Cabinet. I can't blame May for her total incompetence in the way that she (mis)handled the negotiations? Why can't I?

    And what a shame it is that a majority of the electorate who voted to leave the EU can't be as worldly, well-informed and intelligent as you claim to be.

  25. #10325

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    In today’s news, we discover that UK factories are stockpiling goods at fastest pace in 27 years in the event of a no deal. Arron Banks has been fined for serious breaches of electronic marketing laws during the 2016 referendum. Meanwhile Gary Lineker has written a letter of love to the Germans

    It’s a laugh a minute in Brexit Britain. What an utter mess.
    Last edited by shurlock; 01-02-2019 at 01:39 PM.

  26. #10326

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Because FPTP creates incentives for a two-party system. Duverger’s Law pal. Many EU countries operate PR.
    There has never been a prospective situation like this one though, has there, pal? There is potential for the mistrust in the two main parties to be at such a level if they renege on their promise to deliver Brexit, that both parties will split and that factions of both end up either as separate parties, or join together. Alternatively one of the existing fringe parties, or a new party could well make ground even under FPTP if their main party rival's vote plummeted.

  27. #10327

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    So we are stuck with the two party system for ever more, are we? Currently there is also the Lib Dems and UKIP. And as there had also been the Liberals, the SDP and the Referendum Party historically, the impetus for one or more alternative groupings consisting of splinter groups breaking away from the Conservative and Labour Party's will be ripe following the betrayal that a large part of the electorate will feel if Brexit is not delivered properly. This has already happened in several EU countries, so no reason why it shouldn't happen here.
    You really do live in a weird little world don't you?

    The political landscape won't change that quickly whilst FPTP is around, and by the time it does all you Brexiteers will either be dead or too stupid to realise what has happened.

  28. #10328

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    I’m sure just heard on the radio driving home that, even in the event of a no deal, there will be no requirement for Brits to need visas to visit EU nations.

    Is that right?
    Was that just Gib?

  29. #10329

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    In today’s news, we discover that UK factories are stockpiling goods at fastest pace in 27 years in the event of a no deal. Aaron Banks has been fined for serious breaches of electronic marketing laws during the 2016 referendum. Meanwhile Gary Lineker has written a letter of love to the Germans

    It’s a laugh a minute in Brexit Britain. What an utter mess.
    You forgot the Institute of Directors report showing nearly one third of companies have either already triggered Brexit plans to relocate or are planning to do so.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...xit-iod-survey

  30. Default Post EU - The Way Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    So we are stuck with the two party system for ever more, are we? Currently there is also the Lib Dems and UKIP. And as there had also been the Liberals, the SDP and the Referendum Party historically, the impetus for one or more alternative groupings consisting of splinter groups breaking away from the Conservative and Labour Party's will be ripe following the betrayal that a large part of the electorate will feel if Brexit is not delivered properly. This has already happened in several EU countries, so no reason why it shouldn't happen here.
    I’m afraid the Lib Dumbs chucked the best chance of voting reform away in a rush for the ministerial limos.

    They’d spent decades fighting for PR and could have made it a red line in any coalition. Instead The Tories allowed him to save face with a ridiculous AV vote.

    It won’t happen here, not a hope in hell. The parties are coalitions themselves. The only thing that upstart parties can do is damage one of them. UKIP could only deny the Tories a majority, they could never win enough seats. They could split the Tory vote, which is why Cameron ended up offering a referendum. Had he not done so, he probably wouldn’t have won a majority.


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    Last edited by Lord Duckhunter; 01-02-2019 at 01:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    I’m sure just heard on the radio driving home that, even in the event of a no deal, there will be no requirement for Brits to need visas to visit EU nations.
    Ukrainians dont need visas either - another thing we'll soon have in common with them

  32. #10332

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    I helped create the miserable deal? I'm afraid that I wasn't part of the negotiations, that was May and her Remainer advisors and Cabinet. I can't blame May for her total incompetence in the way that she (mis)handled the negotiations? Why can't I?

    And what a shame it is that a majority of the electorate who voted to leave the EU can't be as worldly, well-informed and intelligent as you claim to be.
    And this, which I predicted very early on this thread, is the Brexiteers defence.

    "They didn't implement the way we wanted it, so it's not our fault. It would have worked otherwise."

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Ukrainians dont need visas either - another thing we'll soon have in common with them
    Cool
    Another thing we were told would be needed that now won’t

    Happy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    And this, which I predicted very early on this thread, is the Brexiteers defence.

    "They didn't implement the way we wanted it, so it's not our fault. It would have worked otherwise."
    Had they implemented things as they wanted, we would have already crashed out.

    Just look at the record Brexiters who have had a free hand at their departments because they don’t directly impinge on negotiations with the EU. Liam Fox at Dit can’t even roll over the EU’s existing FTAs -never mind improve on them because the world is a bit more complicated than he imagined while Michael Gove at Defra is vigorously championing May’s deal because he knows the alternative would be disastrous for his stakeholders.

    It’s pretty clear the buck stops with the headbangers who promised the undeliverable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    I helped create the miserable deal? I'm afraid that I wasn't part of the negotiations, that was May and her Remainer advisors and Cabinet. I can't blame May for her total incompetence in the way that she (mis)handled the negotiations? Why can't I?

    And what a shame it is that a majority of the electorate who voted to leave the EU can't be as worldly, well-informed and intelligent as you claim to be.
    It is May’s mess. When Cameron rightly abdicated being very much for staying in the EU, May insist she was the best for the job and her party agreed.

    Having seen some reaction as to why many voted leave was immigration, it is perfectly reasonable to question their thought process as the Conservatives have never upheld their manifesto promise to limit immigration to the electorate, either legitimate or illegal immigration.

    Besides, it’s clear we need an influx to fill the vacancies due to lack of skills here. All that will change is less people from the EU, more from the Asian subcontinent. Let’s see how that is received.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    That’s because Jezzas a Brexiter and Mays not.

    The other positive about this plan is that May will probably have to commit to leaving office pretty soon afterwards. I’d imagine Brexiters will demand that in return for their vote.


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    May has already played that card in trying to get her deal through. She will not be PM leading the Conservatives into the next GE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    In today’s news, we discover that UK factories are stockpiling goods at fastest pace in 27 years in the event of a no deal. Arron Banks has been fined for serious breaches of electronic marketing laws during the 2016 referendum. Meanwhile Gary Lineker has written a letter of love to the Germans

    It’s a laugh a minute in Brexit Britain. What an utter mess.
    Not sure why they're bothering. Everyone keeps telling us that the world will almost end and whatever export market we have at the moment will be obliterated on the 29th March. Seems fairly pointless to stockpile goods if there is no way to sell them! No point pretending they'll be sold in the UK as we're told that will implode as well with impending doom and the worst recession in history so no-one will have any money to buy anything!

    Either that or it's all ********.

    #MSS

  38. #10338

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    A Professor Aikharts (sp? He sounds Dutch and not sure I caught his name) was on Today programme this morning with some interesting thoughts on negating the Backstop and therefore avoiding a no deal. Something along the lines of proceeding with the Withdrawal Agreement in order to allow the Transition phase to begin on a provisional basis.

    It's about 1:17:30 in and is on for a couple of minutes.

    As I say it sounded interesting to m but I am by no means an expert so would appreciate thoughts and analysis from you guys if you have any time to listen...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00028bl

  39. #10339

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    Not sure why they're bothering. Everyone keeps telling us that the world will almost end and whatever export market we have at the moment will be obliterated on the 29th March. Seems fairly pointless to stockpile goods if there is no way to sell them! No point pretending they'll be sold in the UK as we're told that will implode as well with impending doom and the worst recession in history so no-one will have any money to buy anything!

    Either that or it's all ********.

    #MSS
    If there is a 1% decrease in sales across the board, what effect do you think that will have on the economy? How about 5%, or 10%? No-one is predicting no sales whatsoever.
    Last edited by Unbelievable Jeff; 01-02-2019 at 02:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highfield Saint View Post
    A Professor Aikharts (sp? He sounds Dutch and not sure I caught his name) was on Today programme this morning with some interesting thoughts on negating the Backstop and therefore avoiding a no deal. Something along the lines of proceeding with the Withdrawal Agreement in order to allow the Transition phase to begin on a provisional basis.

    It's about 1:17:30 in and is on for a couple of minutes.

    As I say it sounded interesting to m but I am by no means an expert so would appreciate thoughts and analysis from you guys if you have any time to listen...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00028bl
    It’s Piet Eeckhout, professor of EU law and dean of UCL law school. His suggestion is certainly possible, though don’t know how politically feasible it is. I think there are strong incentives to time-limit any extension, especially as there’s a high chance that no resolution will be found.

  41. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctoroncall View Post
    May has already played that card in trying to get her deal through. She will not be PM leading the Conservatives into the next GE.
    Not quite, her wording was that she wouldn’t lead them into the election scheduled for 2022. They’ll want her gone before she gets the chance to involve herself in the future relationship. With her negotiating skills we’ll probably end end giving IOW to the French. Once a PM says they’re going, they always end up going before they want to. They won’t humiliate her, but I’m sure they’ll insist she’s gone by conference, in return for their support.


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  42. Default

    Oh dear. It’s been a bad week for Chucka, his local PLP has adopted one member one vote, making it easier for the Corbyn cult to deselect him.

    Reports are that he stormed off before the result was announced. Not so keen on the people voting in Streatham.




    https://mobile.twitter.com/streatham...01177989742595


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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    It’s Piet Eeckhout, professor of EU law and dean of UCL law school. His suggestion is certainly possible, though don’t know how politically feasible it is. I think there are strong incentives to time-limit any extension, especially as there’s a high chance that no resolution will be found.
    Many thanks Shurlock.

    Maybe as realisation dawns that a compromise is inevitable it could be that it is more about finding a structure and set of words that allow all parties to claim success?

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    Default Post EU - The Way Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    And what a shame it is that a majority of the electorate who voted to leave the EU can't be as worldly, well-informed and intelligent as you claim to be.
    Hey, tell it to this guy...

    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    The sad fact is that most voters are sheep, don't think too carefully when they vote, go with the sound bytes, what their mates do and aren't that smart.
    I think he nailed ‘most voters’ there.

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    Ha just found out 96% of the vets employed by the Food Standards Agency are from EU countries. Kick em all out and poison ourselves I say. We have the right to die!

  46. Default Post EU - The Way Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Ha just found out 96% of the vets employed by the Food Standards Agency are from EU countries. Kick em all out and poison ourselves I say. We have the right to die!
    Pathetic attempt


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Oh dear. It’s been a bad week for Chucka, his local PLP has adopted one member one vote, making it easier for the Corbyn cult to deselect him.

    Reports are that he stormed off before the result was announced. Not so keen on the people voting in Streatham.




    https://mobile.twitter.com/streatham...01177989742595


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    How odd. Not at all like a kipper to attack a black man for having the sheer nerve to be a moderate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal View Post
    How odd. Not at all like a kipper to attack a black man for having the sheer nerve to be a moderate.
    Looking at the responses, it seems there's quite enough hostility from Labour Party members to go around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable Jeff View Post
    So if they have their way we will go from being a member of the EU to a vassal of the USA. How much of a level playing field do people think any trans-Atlantic talks will take place on ?

    #MAGA #americafirst

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