Clapham Saint Posted 27 January, 2016 Share Posted 27 January, 2016 The outstanding debt was completely cleared when Markus bought the club, but were the two main creditors really paid in full? It was reported at the time that the debt was £27.5m. Approximately £4.5m to Barclays Bank and £23m to Norwich Union. It was also reported that Norwich Union were willing to write off a considerable amount of the outstanding loan to any buyer. Maybe that wasn't true, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some sort of offer as they risked losing the lot if no buyer was found. It was reported that Markus paid between £13m and £15m, but nothing was disclosed so I am not sure how this figure reached the press. Maybe that was the initial fee and then subsequent payments were made - although I think that goes against the general `all debts' have been paid' line. It is worth noting that a debt of £20.4 million appeared on the Saints balance sheet (a loan from Markus to the club) after the admin, with £2.9m of cash in the bank. I might be barking up the wrong tree, but perhaps that suggests the real fee paid for the club (and subsequently to Barclays and NU) was more like £17.5m, with Barclays and NU agreeing to write off roughly £10m between them? I believe there was talk on this forum of an additional payment to NU should we make it to the premiership. Is this true? What was this figure and did it ever appear in a subsequent financial statement? One last thing. I know the `paid in full' conclusion was made by someone on these boards based on the theory that if you add up all the payments made to NU they roughly came to the same amount as the initial loan. But of course that means NU didn't earn any interest on the loan. I am probably miles off here, and I'd be grateful if someone could explain how and why. We certainly didn't pay 4p in the pound, or ripped off local businesses and charities, but was the final agreement more like 64p in the pound (if my maths are right) than 100p in the pound? I can't be bothered to look up the exact company names or debt amounts but broadly speaking... We had two companies. The first company was called "Southampton football club Limited" (or similar). This company owned "the club" (but not the stadium) and will have owed money to other football clubs and small creditors (Terry the Builder et al). This company never went into administration. It continued to trade as it always had and paid 100% the money it owed. The seond company "Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc" owned the stadium and the shares of Southampton football club Limited. It owed £27m to Aviva which was secured on the stadium. It was Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc which went into administration. When Marcus came along he (via another company) bought the stadium and the shares in Southampton Football Club Limited from the Administrator of Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc for £15m (IIRC). This left Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc with £15m in cash to pay out to its creditors (Aviva) and so Aviva took a hit and only received £15m or so of the £27m that it should ordinarily have received. I'm not sure which company owed the money to Barclays. If it was Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc then the £15m will have been split between Barclays and Aviva. More likely is that Southampton Football Club Limited owed the money to Barclays and Marcus lent extra money to Southampton Football Club Limited so that it in turn could repay Barclays. I hope that makes sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 27 January, 2016 Share Posted 27 January, 2016 I should also say that after Southampton Leiure Holdings Plc had paid Aviva money that it received from Marcus it was liquidated and no longer exists. There was no CVA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 January, 2016 Share Posted 27 January, 2016 I can't be bothered to look up the exact company names or debt amounts but broadly speaking... We had two companies. The first company was called "Southampton football club Limited" (or similar). This company owned "the club" (but not the stadium) and will have owed money to other football clubs and small creditors (Terry the Builder et al). This company never went into administration. It continued to trade as it always had and paid 100% the money it owed. The seond company "Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc" owned the stadium and the shares of Southampton football club Limited. It owed £27m to Aviva which was secured on the stadium. It was Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc which went into administration. When Marcus came along he (via another company) bought the stadium and the shares in Southampton Football Club Limited from the Administrator of Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc for £15m (IIRC). This left Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc with £15m in cash to pay out to its creditors (Aviva) and so Aviva took a hit and only received £15m or so of the £27m that it should ordinarily have received. I'm not sure which company owed the money to Barclays. If it was Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc then the £15m will have been split between Barclays and Aviva. More likely is that Southampton Football Club Limited owed the money to Barclays and Marcus lent extra money to Southampton Football Club Limited so that it in turn could repay Barclays. I hope that makes sense... My recollection is that it was the act of Barclays 'suddenly' reducing the overdraft facility to £4m that triggered Southampton Leisure Holdings going into administration, which would tend to suggest that it was SLH that owed Barclays? (Disclaimer: I'm now at the age where my memory isn't as good as it used to be!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 27 January, 2016 Share Posted 27 January, 2016 Go on Penny, off the top board, just one more time for us! Step back everyone, and get the sandbags out by your front doors.... I still would. If I could Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 My recollection is that it was the act of Barclays 'suddenly' reducing the overdraft facility to £4m that triggered Southampton Leisure Holdings going into administration, which would tend to suggest that it was SLH that owed Barclays? (Disclaimer: I'm now at the age where my memory isn't as good as it used to be!) I think (think) Barclays reducing the overdraft, meant that Southampton Football Club couldn't pay money up to the holding company, which in turn meant that the holding company couldn't pay the Aviva loan - hence the holding company went into administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Biscuits Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 So what you guys are saying then is that, once more, the skates are making things up as they go along. Got to hand it to them, I thought this thread was finally dying and, once more, they come up with something to show that it's alive and well. It makes me laugh, they have to make stuff up about us. We just have to look at their much vaunted history...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 I can't be bothered to look up the exact company names or debt amounts but broadly speaking... We had two companies. The first company was called "Southampton football club Limited" (or similar). This company owned "the club" (but not the stadium) and will have owed money to other football clubs and small creditors (Terry the Builder et al). This company never went into administration. It continued to trade as it always had and paid 100% the money it owed. The seond company "Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc" owned the stadium and the shares of Southampton football club Limited. It owed £27m to Aviva which was secured on the stadium. It was Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc which went into administration. When Marcus came along he (via another company) bought the stadium and the shares in Southampton Football Club Limited from the Administrator of Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc for £15m (IIRC). This left Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc with £15m in cash to pay out to its creditors (Aviva) and so Aviva took a hit and only received £15m or so of the £27m that it should ordinarily have received. I'm not sure which company owed the money to Barclays. If it was Southampton Leisure Holdings Plc then the £15m will have been split between Barclays and Aviva. More likely is that Southampton Football Club Limited owed the money to Barclays and Marcus lent extra money to Southampton Football Club Limited so that it in turn could repay Barclays. I hope that makes sense... it does. Cheers. The debt to Norwich Union (which renamed to Aviva) was £23.1m. The combined debt was £27.5m (£23.1m to NU and £4.4m to Barclays). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Do we know if the £23.1m was the sum claimed by NU or the amount accepted by the liquidator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Do we know if the £23.1m was the sum claimed by NU or the amount accepted by the liquidator? That would be the sum owed. It was negotiated to ~£15m on purchase with ~£5m on promotion to the PL. Not a bad deal really. I wouldn't know what authority the administrator would have in agreeing a reduced price. Certainly an easier job dealing with two major creditors than the 100s in PFC's case and the Saints part was still a going concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 ...~£15m on purchase with ~£5m on promotion to the PL. Not a bad deal really. .... Did they also get the money there and then instead of being drip feed via the mortgage (or equivalent) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 That would be the sum owed. Can you explain that? What did it include? Interest only up to the date of administration? Or future interest as well? Penalties? Other charges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 Can you explain that? What did it include? Interest only up to the date of administration? Or future interest as well? Penalties? Other charges? It would have been all outstanding capital and unpaid interest plus some sort of additional charge (whatever was permitted under the loan agreement) for the loan being accelerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 It would have been all outstanding capital and unpaid interest plus some sort of additional charge (whatever was permitted under the loan agreement) for the loan being accelerated. To clarify, by "unpaid interest", I mean any interest attached to overdue payments. Not all interest that would have been payable over the life of the loan. The acceleration fees are compensation for loss of the margin on that interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 That's what I would have expected, so they did pretty well then. Given that they could then lend that £20m to somebody else at a profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 That's what I would have expected, so they did pretty well then. Given that they could then lend that £20m to somebody else at a profit. Indeed. So, Aviva never lost money on our loan per se, they just didn't make as much in interest as they would have done had the mortgage run its course? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 It's been many years since I handled a dispute in England involving an insolvency, but in some of the jurisdictions that I work in the creditor's right to receive the interest on the amount owed ceases when the insolvency event occurs. But it rarely stops them from claiming it in the first instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 meanwhile the skates sign another Sheff United player. Still the £6750 they get for the extended FA Cup highlights should help. I bet their owners are wondering how on earth they didn't get selected for one of the five live games this weekend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 My recollection is that it was the act of Barclays 'suddenly' reducing the overdraft facility to £4m that triggered Southampton Leisure Holdings going into administration, which would tend to suggest that it was SLH that owed Barclays? (Disclaimer: I'm now at the age where my memory isn't as good as it used to be!) That's my memory too, from a brewpub with wifi, which may explain it.. Thanks to the expertise here - Clapham et al. Once again this thread entertains and I might have another beer to finish it. I lost a bit on my fun Saints shareholding, but unlike Pompey "shareholders" I went in eyes open.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waterside.saint Posted 28 January, 2016 Share Posted 28 January, 2016 meanwhile the skates sign another Sheff United player. Still the £6750 they get for the extended FA Cup highlights should help. I bet their owners are wondering how on earth they didn't get selected for one of the five live games this weekend? Living beyond their means? Surely not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 SFC Ltd continued to trade and settled it's debt in full. The Administrator of SLH Ltd quoted change out of £14m to settle and own everything including the stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danbert Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 http://www.pompeytrust.com/news/pst-to-work-with-ea-sports? So basically, my mate works for EA Sports and he'll give us some free gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALWAYS_SFC Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 http://www.pompeytrust.com/news/pst-to-work-with-ea-sports? So basically, my mate works for EA Sports and he'll give us some free gear. Speaking as a fan, I am in awe of the work the PST has carried out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 He's easily impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamplemousse Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 As Saints fans, we should all be in awe of the work they have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack rill Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 As Saints fans, we should all be in awe of the work they have done. agreed, the way we turned a large debt into a 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andysstuff Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 Ok which one of you tweets for the Echo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Balls Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 Ok which one of you tweets for the Echo? Haha. Great trolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Biscuits Posted 29 January, 2016 Share Posted 29 January, 2016 agreed, the way we turned a large debt into a 0 Yeah....... I'm sure the local traders were very impressed........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Speaking as a fan, I am in awe of the work the PST has carried out To be fair, most of the work that the PST carries out these days is because they can't afford to pay proper contractors to do it. Who's got a paintbrush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alehouseboys Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Good lad http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/pompey/saints-fan-cargill-s-pompey-snub-1-7188787 Come on the Cherries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Biscuits Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Shame James ward Prowse didn't show the same loyalty to us!!!!!!! Best comment on that page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 agreed, the way we turned a large debt into a 0 A zero you say? Have you produced any accounts to back that up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Ok which one of you tweets for the Echo? [emoji38] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 David Pleat on Radio 5 just now: "Portsmouth have beautiful facilities here and a lovely ground" I'm surprised they let him out at weekends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Alan Knight: "Without the fans the club wouldn't be here anymore" So, nothing to do with politicians interfering with HMRC's winding up order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Good lad http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/pompey/saints-fan-cargill-s-pompey-snub-1-7188787 Come on the Cherries His dad could play a bit to. Were good friends when they lived in Fair Oak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjwills Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 What a ****hole just watched the walk to the dressing room. Top notch facilities NOT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 David Pleat on Radio 5 just now: "Portsmouth have beautiful facilities here and a lovely ground" I'm surprised they let him out at weekends... Is he the match summariser on 5 Live? If he's down this way he probably took the opportunity to look up some old acquantices in Derby Road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holepuncture Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 meanwhile the skates sign another Sheff United player. Still the £6750 they get for the extended FA Cup highlights should help. I bet their owners are wondering how on earth they didn't get selected for one of the five live games this weekend? It's really funny that they haven't been selected. A cup final against the mighty Bournemouth, this will be there biggest occasion for many years. They must be absolutely gutted! BBC football focus was at fratton earlier, so they may have got a couple of hundred in for that, should keep champagne iain flowing for the afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffaSaint Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Pitch looks freshly ploughed at least Sent from my GT-S5301 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaffaSaint Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Tater just comented 18k skates biggest crowd for 4 years Sent from my GT-S5301 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyboy Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Ah the gift keeps giving ! 2-1 to Bournemouth now ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danbert Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Well, that was plucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 FFS Got to love the pompy fans just gone 1-2 down and still singing blue army! [emoji122]?[emoji122]?[emoji122]? @BBCMOTD Bet he says the same Bol0cks on MOTD tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALWAYS_SFC Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Well that's a shame? Bet the ref couldn't handle the occasion:rolleyes: They will have to concentrate on missing out on promotion whilst out spending the rest of the division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 A really good effort, that Bournemouth reserve side are one of the best 2nd XIs in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALWAYS_SFC Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Bet the pub team manager has screamed himself hoarse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Let the delusion begin.... Geo @geowillsuk Definitely proved that Pompey don't have a league two squad! Championship easily! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 Good lad http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/football/pompey/saints-fan-cargill-s-pompey-snub-1-7188787 Come on the Cherries I watched the game and he looked a decent player. Very composed, strong and decent on the ball. I wondered why they gave him the scummer chants, but he seemed to thrive on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 30 January, 2016 Share Posted 30 January, 2016 David Pleat on Radio 5 just now: "Portsmouth have beautiful facilities here and a lovely ground" I'm surprised they let him out at weekends... Curb crawling ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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