Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[spyinthesky]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Not entirely; we are apparently 100k drivers short, having lost about 20k due to Brexit, so 80k are down to our own policy failings.

I was a Remainer have to say that the shortage of HGV drivers is only partly down to Brexit.

There were shortages before we left the EU and very few young people were joining the industry mainly because of the relatively low wages.

The growth of home deliveries for Amazon and the like meant that a lot of the long distance HGV drivers could earn more money driving vans around their locality and sleep the night in their own bed rather than the back of a cab.

Just in time deliveries also complicated matters as there was additional pressure on jobs especially as our trunk roads/motorways are so congested at times.

And, as been said before, there arev shortages of HGV drivers across Europe and the USA.

[hypochondriac]

52 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Not entirely; we are apparently 100k drivers short, having lost about 20k due to Brexit, so 80k are down to our own policy failings.

Fair enough. So seems a little silly to blame brexit for this situation then doesn't it. It's a poor government policy problem. 

[Tamesaint]

17 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Fair enough. So seems a little silly entirely to blame brexit for this situation then doesn't it. It's a poor government policy problem. 

Corrected for you.

[The Cat]

This article in Private Eye explains some of the problem.

[hypochondriac]

2 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

Corrected for you.

Again, the problem is that being in the EU meant that companies just accepted dirt cheap labour from abroad, lowering wages for everyone and not bothering to train anyone else. The fact that leaving the EU may have contributed to less workers willing to work for peanuts just proves what a crummy deal it was for many people. 

[CB Fry]

Pretty sure most of the Brexit hardliners wanted to leave to facilitate a bonfire of employment regulations and workers rights, the old Brussels "red tape" holding back growth.

Apparently now actually what they really really wanted to do is invest in lots of training, improve working conditions and increase everyone's wages. But of course.

[TwoPints]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Again, the problem is that being in the EU meant that companies just accepted dirt cheap labour from abroad, lowering wages for everyone and not bothering to train anyone else. The fact that leaving the EU may have contributed to less workers willing to work for peanuts just proves what a crummy deal it was for many people. 

No, it doesn't prove that at all.  We have an ageing population so within the next 5 to 10 years we will have a large chunk of our working population that are no longer working.  We already have insufficient working people to fill all the vacancies.  By preventing free movement of European labour we have just exacerbated the situation and brought the problem forward even sooner.  Anyone that's studied the population data would tell you there was a problem brewing even before we left the EU.  We need more working age people to pay tax as a large number of the population will be drawing their pension which need to be paid for by those that are working.  

 

 

[whelk]

Just what your readership has been crying out for 

 

[whelk]

The former Finnish PM is feeling sorry for us

 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

Pretty sure most of the Brexit hardliners wanted to leave to facilitate a bonfire of employment regulations and workers rights, the old Brussels "red tape" holding back growth.

Apparently now actually what they really really wanted to do is invest in lots of training, improve working conditions and increase everyone's wages. But of course.

No idea about what most wanted to do. That's what I wanted to do. 

[skintsaint]

Shouldn't be short of a job when we return to the UK then. Happy days.

[a1ex2001]

8 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

No idea about what most wanted to do. That's what I wanted to do. 

Funnily enough I don’t remember the huge bus mounted slogans that said vote leave for empty shelves and power cuts and rampant inflation!!!  Increased wages only make a difference if prices don’t rocket to compensate so in reality paying truck drivers 50k+ a year while it sounds great just makes everything more expensive and the UK less competitive.  
 

The thing that is really stupid about all this is that it was all predicted by the evil ‘project fear’ and if our almighty leaders had half a brain between them could easily have been avoided by tapering down freedom of movement for key sectors rather than stopping it dead.  Sadly to appeal to the base brexit voter that had to go with the no more immigration nonsense that anyone with a brain could see is unsustainable for our population and now we have Tory U turn number 7652 as visas for truck drivers arrive that only last week Boris said wasn’t going to happen.

What a complete and utter poop sandwich brexit has turned out to be!

Edited 26 September, 2021 by a1ex2001

[hypochondriac]

Yeah my post wasn't an opportunity to enter into some big brexit debate again. I'm sure that brexit hasn't helped the situation in this instance but the pandemic is the primary driver for a lot of this stuff and I doubt we'd be in this situation otherwise. 

[CB Fry]

No one has stopped the government improving working conditions or investment in training and development for hauliers in the last five and a half years apart from the fact that they had no fucking interest whatsoever in doing anything of the sort.

[Plastic]

Pretty hilarious that the plan is to ‘allow’ foreign lorry drivers to come and help us in a time of crisis. Who the fuck do they actually think will want to come and do it? Plenty of opportunity on the continent already. 
 

”we’ll begrudgingly let you foreign bastards come and dig us out of our crisis, but only until Xmas eve. Then you can fuck off home, and good riddance, ‘cause you’re stealing jobs from honest hard working brits.”

[whelk]

This is what happens when you allow thick cunts a referendum. Most aren’t bright enough and fall for slogans.

[trousers]

8 minutes ago, whelk said:

This is what happens when you allow thick cunts a referendum. Most aren’t bright enough and fall for slogans.

Agree. I've always said people not blessed with intelligence (by birth or otherwise) shouldn't be allowed to participate in democracy...

Edited 26 September, 2021 by trousers

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

No one has stopped the government improving working conditions or investment in training and development for hauliers in the last five and a half years apart from the fact that they had no fucking interest whatsoever in doing anything of the sort.

Yes probably true. Also they haven't really had to because there's been a steady supply of cheap labour from the continent. Let's hope that some of this will now happen given the rather pressing need. 

[whelk]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

Agree. I've always said people not blessed with intelligence (by birth or otherwise) shouldn't be allowed to participate in democracy...

I didn’t say democracy. Referendum requirng a binary decision on a complex issue was fucking stupid. Patronising xenophobic politicians telling the proles how simple and how great it will be when it clearly wasn’t at all simple. Don’t believe the ‘experts’ 

[trousers]

19 minutes ago, whelk said:

Referendum requirng a binary decision on a complex issue was fucking stupid

Including the one held in 1975?

[trousers]

24 minutes ago, whelk said:

I didn’t say democracy

P.s. "democracy" voted in the idiots that promised a referendum in the first place... #rootcause

[badgerx16]

If you ask the British public their collective choice on an issue you end up with "Boaty McBoatface".

 

[badgerx16]

Just now, trousers said:

P.s. "democracy" voted in the idiots that promised a referendum in the first place... #rootcause

At least the referendum was decided by a majority of the votes cast- the Westminster Government is never elected by such a majority.

[hypochondriac]

30 minutes ago, whelk said:

I didn’t say democracy. Referendum requirng a binary decision on a complex issue was fucking stupid. Patronising xenophobic politicians telling the proles how simple and how great it will be when it clearly wasn’t at all simple. Don’t believe the ‘experts’ 

So in your mind was it ever possible for someone intelligent and fully aware of the facts to want to leave the EU? 

[whelk]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

So in your mind was it ever possible for someone intelligent and fully aware of the facts to want to leave the EU? 

Undoubtedly some were but that is my point, patronising as it sounds a large number of the public don’t have aptitude for understanding economic complexities. We could have a referendum on whether you want bins emptied more regularly and lower council taxes - I could tell you we would do that by eliminating ‘waste’ in public sector and tell you anyone who said otherwise was ‘project fear’. 

[trousers]

8 minutes ago, whelk said:

Undoubtedly some were but that is my point, patronising as it sounds a large number of the public don’t have aptitude for understanding economic complexities. We could have a referendum on whether you want bins emptied more regularly and lower council taxes - I could tell you we would do that by eliminating ‘waste’ in public sector and tell you anyone who said otherwise was ‘project fear’. 

The public got it right in 1975 though, so it doesn't always result in a disaster.

And the Irish public got it right more recently, after initially getting it wrong... 

Edited 26 September, 2021 by trousers

[Tamesaint]

25 minutes ago, trousers said:

The public got it right in 1975 though, so it doesn't always result in a disaster.

And the Irish public got it right more recently, after initially getting it wrong... 

The Irish public were allowed to rethink their decision. For reasons more to do with Conservative party harmony rather than the UK national interest this was never offered to the British public - despite the likes of Rees Mogg initially saying otherwise.

[hypochondriac]

57 minutes ago, whelk said:

Undoubtedly some were but that is my point, patronising as it sounds a large number of the public don’t have aptitude for understanding economic complexities. We could have a referendum on whether you want bins emptied more regularly and lower council taxes - I could tell you we would do that by eliminating ‘waste’ in public sector and tell you anyone who said otherwise was ‘project fear’. 

Like trousers said, was it reasonable to have a referendum in 1975 and then act on the decision? If it was then why could there never be a mechanism to reverse that decision when a new generation can have their say? 

[whelk]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Like trousers said, was it reasonable to have a referendum in 1975 and then act on the decision? If it was then why could there never be a mechanism to reverse that decision when a new generation can have their say? 

They did and it was foolhardy. We could have joined in 1975 without a referendum.

I am not saying this because result went against the way I wanted it to.

Maybe we should ask the public to vote annually on the treasury spending plans as to how much spending on each department? Truly trust the public.

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

They did and it was foolhardy. We could have joined in 1975 without a referendum.

I am not saying this because result went against the way I wanted it to.

Maybe we should ask the public to vote annually on the treasury spending plans as to how much spending on each department? Truly trust the public.

The vote in a General Election is supposedly based on the manifestos. The majority of policies and decisions made by Governments were never in a manifesto pledge, ( and many such pledges are ignored or forgotten ).

We never learn.

Edited 26 September, 2021 by badgerx16

[Delmary]

13 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Pretty sure most of the Brexit hardliners wanted to leave to facilitate a bonfire of employment regulations and workers rights, the old Brussels "red tape" holding back growth.

Apparently now actually what they really really wanted to do is invest in lots of training, improve working conditions and increase everyone's wages. But of course.

You can’t have a high wage low skilled economy without hyper inflation. A highly skilled based economy will facilitate high wages and low inflation. This is basic economics.

Unfortunately, the UK is a long way from achieving a South Korean style economy.

[The Cat]

The public get to vote on all sorts of things and quite clearly can't be trusted.

You only have to look at the sort of polls which often suggest they think Bohemian Rhapsody is the best song of all time when in fact it's a smug, overblown, irritating, pompous piece of wank.

If they can get that so spectacularly wrong there's no hope.

[hypochondriac]

36 minutes ago, whelk said:

They did and it was foolhardy. We could have joined in 1975 without a referendum.

I am not saying this because result went against the way I wanted it to.

Maybe we should ask the public to vote annually on the treasury spending plans as to how much spending on each department? Truly trust the public.

So we should have just left in 2016 without a referendum? 

[egg]

22 minutes ago, The Cat said:

The public get to vote on all sorts of things and quite clearly can't be trusted.

You only have to look at the sort of polls which often suggest they think Bohemian Rhapsody is the best song of all time when in fact it's a smug, overblown, irritating, pompous piece of wank.

If they can get that so spectacularly wrong there's no hope.

I dunno, Bohemian Rhapsody is great. That said, I voted leave, so what the fuck do I know. 

[trousers]

1 hour ago, The Cat said:

You only have to look at the sort of polls which often suggest they think Bohemian Rhapsody is the best song of all time

Indeed. We all know that "Don't Pay The Ferryman" is the greatest gift to music the world has ever seen but Shane, the white van driver from Basildon, has probably never heard of it, FFS

Edited 26 September, 2021 by trousers

[igsey]

Re: HGV shortage, I personally know two HGV drivers that have relatively recently changed career path and moved into tech roles (one friend of my parents', one recent joiner at my company). Both fed up of the lifestyle, though not sure if they would have stuck around with the big pay increases we've seen in the last couple of months.

UK Gov: "Retrain in cyber... no, not you!"

[badgerx16]

14 minutes ago, igsey said:

UK Gov: "Retrain in cyber... no, not you!"

When I was made redundant after 33 years in IT, the last 10 in cyber security, I was deemed too old, ( 55 ), for almost every related vacancy going.

[Picard]

26 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

When I was made redundant after 33 years in IT, the last 10 in cyber security, I was deemed too old, ( 55 ), for almost every related vacancy going.

And I thought you were a virologist.

[badgerx16]

37 minutes ago, Picard said:

And I thought you were a virologist.

BSc in Microbiology, career in chasing computer viruses.

[aintforever]

5 hours ago, whelk said:

I didn’t say democracy. Referendum requirng a binary decision on a complex issue was fucking stupid. Patronising xenophobic politicians telling the proles how simple and how great it will be when it clearly wasn’t at all simple. Don’t believe the ‘experts’ 

Agree with this. 

I was surprised at what a mess the referendum turned into. The problem with it was the fact that politicians got involved, rational debate went out the window once two groups of bell-ends took sides and decided to say whatever bollocks they thought would ‘win’ their argument. Lies written on busses, project fear and a bunch of self serving tossers trying to get their own way. Fact is as soon as rational thinking goes out the window no one wins and you end up with stupid decisions being made, empty shelves and queues for petrol.

Edited 26 September, 2021 by aintforever

[Whitey Grandad]

The country is being run by people who thought that Brexit was a good idea. No wonder we’re in such a mess.

[revolution saint]

With regard to the 1975 referendum, it was to decide whether to remain in the EU after having joined it two and a half years previously. So the equivalent would have been to leave the EU in 2014 and then hold a referendum in 2016 on continuing to remain out of the EU. Point being that you were voting on a known entity to an extent. In 1975 they knew what being in the EU was like as they’d had a decent amount of time to assess it. In 2016 we were asked to vote on leaving without anyone knowing what that would entail beyond vague promises and predictions.

[Warriorsaint]

14 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Like trousers said, was it reasonable to have a referendum in 1975 and then act on the decision? If it was then why could there never be a mechanism to reverse that decision when a new generation can have their say? 

If that is your position then we should have another one now we see the disaster it is. Surely you’d agree?

[hypochondriac]

5 hours ago, Warriorsaint said:

If that is your position then we should have another one now we see the disaster it is. Surely you’d agree?

In what way is there now a new generation in place? 

[Verbal]

16 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

The country is being run by people who thought that Brexit was a good idea. No wonder we’re in such a mess.

I'm not sure even Boris Johnson thinks Brexit is a good idea.  His desperate three-month visa ploy for HGV drivers is an explicit recognition that freezing freedom of movement doesn't work.

On which subject - if you think it's easy to drive an artic, try this:

Teabag challenge

[ecuk268]

It's all going wonderfully..

https://newsthump.com/2021/09/24/brexit-going-really-well-actually-insists-government-with-no-fuel-energy-food-workers-border-control-or-trade-deals

[whelk]

A positive is that less food may lead to less obese people.

No fuel mean we might walk more. Every cloud

[whelk]

51 minutes ago, Verbal said:

I'm not sure even Boris Johnson thinks Brexit is a good idea.  His desperate three-month visa ploy for HGV drivers is an explicit recognition that freezing freedom of movement doesn't work.

On which subject - if you think it's easy to drive an artic, try this:

Teabag challenge

I have seen experienced hgv drivers not be able to reverse a double articulated lorry onto a bay. 

[Warriorsaint]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

A positive is that less food may lead to less obese people.

No fuel mean we might walk more. Every cloud

Abstract thinking 🤔 I like it. Silver  linings I guess. Lol 😆 

[trousers]

2 hours ago, Verbal said:

freezing freedom of movement doesn't work.

Apologies, sir, if I've misinterpreted what you said but I think you may have conflated "freedom of movement" and "movement"?

My understanding of Brexit (which could be wrong, of course) is that "freedom of movement" was to be replaced with "controlled movement". i.e. movement on a 'supply & demand' basis. 

I accept that the government could be guilty of botching the "controlled movement" concept but could it not be made to work if implemented competently?

Or are you actually saying it's black and white... i.e. You either of have free movement or no movement at all and anything in-between could never be made to work?

Genuine clarification question on my part, not looking for a bun fight about it

 

 

Edited 27 September, 2021 by trousers