The Labour Party

[whelk]

Couldn’t find the old thread but anyone convinced Starmer has turned Labour into credible party to govern?

Compared to Truss he is a charismatic giant. Haven’t heard his speech yet and what opinion has been but if cannot win from here then God help us!

[farawaysaint]

Labour is up 13 points and Truss's own party is already throwing her to the wolves in the press albeit anonymously. Politics is such a shambles right now if the Labour party does not win the next election it would be something of a miraculous turnaround. 

[revolution saint]

1 minute ago, farawaysaint said:

Labour is up 13 points and Truss's own party is already throwing her to the wolves in the press albeit anonymously. Politics is such a shambles right now if the Labour party does not win the next election it would be something of a miraculous turnaround. 

17 points in the latest YouGov poll isn't it?  Agree if Labour fail to win next time around then they may as well give up.

[buctootim]

48 minutes ago, whelk said:

Couldn’t find the old thread but anyone convinced Starmer has turned Labour into credible party to govern?

Compared to Truss he is a charismatic giant. Haven’t heard his speech yet and what opinion has been but if cannot win from here then God help us!

I know its not a new thought but its basically a 'meh' Labour team up against a 'FFS no' Tory team.  For the good of the country we need a change . Not expecting too much from a Labour Government but a reurn to sanity and a bit less dishonesty would be enough to be going on with. 

[farawaysaint]

24 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

17 points in the latest YouGov poll isn't it?  Agree if Labour fail to win next time around then they may as well give up.

Quite right apparently; with those figures they couldn't form a minority coalition government even with the support of both the greens and libdems which is a bit nuts. 

Edited 27 September, 2022 by farawaysaint

[Lord Duckhunter]

It’s pretty straight forward to me. Truss has thrown the kitchen sink going for growth, if she can get it up above 3% and inflation is at a “reasonable” rate, she’ll win the next election. If not, Starmer will be PM. It’ll either be ‘92 and Labour will wonder how the fuck they lost, or ‘97 and The Tory vote will collapse. 

[farawaysaint]

18 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s pretty straight forward to me. Truss has thrown the kitchen sink going for growth, if she can get it up above 3% and inflation is at a “reasonable” rate, she’ll win the next election. If not, Starmer will be PM. It’ll either be ‘92 and Labour will wonder how the fuck they lost, or ‘97 and The Tory vote will collapse. 

Tax cuts have a negligible impact on growth though especially tax cuts to the higher income bracket. 
 

The reason there is so much discontent is that Truss’s economic plan makes no sense. Not only does it not make sense but they are deliberately hiding the impact by refusing to release forecasts.

[badgerx16]

...

Edited 27 September, 2022 by badgerx16
wrong thread

[Lord Duckhunter]

9 minutes ago, farawaysaint said:

 

The reason there is so much discontent is that Truss’s economic plan makes no sense. 

It does make sense if you’re trying to win an election due in 2 years . They’ve no other choice, to continue as they are and trying to control decline until an upturn comes along, will lead to inevitable defeat. Incumbents across the world are going to be kicked and kicked hard. They’re throwing a Hail Mary hoping to kick start enough growth to squeak back in . Not saying I agree with it, (I don’t like adding to the deficit), but that’s what they’re doing. 

Edited 27 September, 2022 by Lord Duckhunter

[moonraker]

16 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It does make sense if you’re trying to win an election due in 2 years . They’ve no other choice, to continue as they are and trying to control decline until an upturn comes along, will lead to inevitable defeat. Incumbents across the world are going to be kicked and kicked hard. They’re throwing a Hail Mary hoping to kick start enough growth to squeak back in . Not saying I agree with it, (I don’t like adding to the deficit), but that’s what they’re doing. 

Truss won’t be PM by the next election.

Edited 28 September, 2022 by moonraker

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Could definitely see Boris coming back.  Truss wont last and I can't see many Tories fancying picking up this bin fire.  

[moonraker]

15 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

Could definitely see Boris coming back.  Truss wont last and I can't see many Tories fancying picking up this bin fire.  

Perfect for Rishi to mount a second bid.  Even the swivel eyed geriatrics who populate the Tory membership must see they got it wrong the first time, not that any of the current Tory parliamentary party has much appeal as a PM.  If Bojo is found in breech of parliamentary rules he may well be barred from standing.

[whelk]

Staggering although more to do with current lot being hopelessly out of their depth

 

 

[LGTL]

I don’t think that’s recoverable for the Tories. Damage has been done. 

[Fan The Flames]

On 27/09/2022 at 19:37, Lord Duckhunter said:

It does make sense if you’re trying to win an election due in 2 years . They’ve no other choice, to continue as they are and trying to control decline until an upturn comes along, will lead to inevitable defeat. Incumbents across the world are going to be kicked and kicked hard. They’re throwing a Hail Mary hoping to kick start enough growth to squeak back in . Not saying I agree with it, (I don’t like adding to the deficit), but that’s what they’re doing. 

So they're fucking the country up on a gamble to hold on to power. 

If that's the case the cunts should be chased out of the country.

[Sheaf Saint]

14 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

So they're fucking the country up on a gamble to hold on to power. 

If that's the case the cunts should be chased out of the country.

I don't think it's even that. I think they know damn well that the events of recent years will make them completely unelectable for a generation, and what we are seeing now is a last desperate smash and grab to transfer as much wealth as they possibly can to their donors before they disappear into the political wilderness after the next election.

[sadoldgit]

There is very little to be happy about right now, but, finally, large numbers of people who voted for this government have finally seen the error of their ways and are talking about changing their vote at the next election. Starmer looks and sounds like a credible PM. The polls are making a mockery for those who said that the Tories couldn’t do any worse than Corbyn. Starmer is a decent, honest man who wants to do right by the majority of people in this country. We have had a succession of Tory leaders who have been incrementally more incompetent than the last and we are left with Truss. Dear God. The only thing that defies belief is that there are still people who support her and her morally bankrupt party. The upcoming Tory Party Conference should be a hoot.

[Lighthouse]

5 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

There is very little to be happy about right now, but, finally, large numbers of people who voted for this government have finally seen the error of their ways

Not really an error though, when the alternative was an anti-NATO, nuclear disarmament pacifist. I’ll happily vote to get rid of the Tories now but it was never an error.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

Large numbers of people who voted for this government have finally seen the error of their ways and are talking about changing their vote at the next election

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

Not really an error though, when the alternative was an anti-NATO, nuclear disarmament pacifist. I’ll happily vote to get rid of the Tories now but it was never an error.

☝️ This. The version of the Labour Party on offer then is a completely different proposition to the Blair MkII version on offer now. 

 

 

Quote

The polls are making a mockery for those who said that the Tories couldn’t do any worse than Corbyn

Given he never got a chance to put his policies into effect, so how do we know things wouldn't have been equally bad or worse under Corbyn...? 

Edited 30 September, 2022 by trousers

[saint1977]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

☝️ This. The version of the Labour Party on offer then is a completely different proposition to the Blair MkII version on offer now. 

 

 

Given he never got a chance to put his policies into effect, so how do we know things wouldn't have been equally bad or worse under Corbyn...? 

Agree with Lighthouse, Starmer is a different proposition. As New Labour were to 1980s Labour where Kinnock was saddled with disarmament and to a lesser extent Clause 4.

Re Corbyn and Truss, I guess the comparison is in the fact that neither would have been close to being selected by their parliamentary party yet got the activists excited. To a certain extent true of the Miliband brothers as well. Unions engineered the wrong result there with some disastrous consequences, as Miliband’s rule changes let Corbyn in (plus Beckett putting Corbyn on the paper ‘for diversity’). Ed Miliband had some decent ideas but couldn’t communicate them despite the odd breakthrough eg Squeezed Middle. Not sure he has the people skill. IDS was another one as Tory leader. 

Part of the reason for that is that to build credibility for office there is a period of relationship and confidence building with key institutions nationally and globally. Blair, Brown, Major, Thatcher in her earlier days, Cameron and Osborne all did, Sunak too. Boris was well known to them and played the rebel in public but different faces to different audiences. Truss and Corbyn are outsiders and that’s what they want to be. Both are also stuck in ideologies, and ways of thinking which have past their peak a long time ago, yet they can’t fathom why they don’t work and it’s everyone else who causes them to fail (Truss now, Labour old left 1983 and 2019). 

Editing further the other aspect is that the other PMs sought to change certain aspects - Maggie’s labour reforms, City deregulation - but also knew where to be pragmatic eg channel tunnel investment by financial institutions, brokering the Single Market. There’s a certain level of trust (rather than Truss) required which I don’t think your Corbyn’s and Truss’s see the need for. Blair/Brown and BoE independence too, that’s consultation over time. She’s felt the need to distance herself in the campaign from Sunak’s orthodoxy but most leaders once elected make a realistic assessment and prepare before lurching like last Friday.

Any change to PM other than death should be a GE now. I wasn’t comfortable with Brown’s non mandate but at least the policy direction was broadly similar as was Cameron/May initially. What people especially in the Midlands and North voted for in 2019 with Boris is unrecognisable and that’s wrong.

Edited 30 September, 2022 by saint1977

[Fan The Flames]

3 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

I don't think it's even that. I think they know damn well that the events of recent years will make them completely unelectable for a generation, and what we are seeing now is a last desperate smash and grab to transfer as much wealth as they possibly can to their donors before they disappear into the political wilderness after the next election.

I agree that's its not primarily about a re-election bid. I don't think it's smash and grab per se, although that is the result. And the growth stuff is a trojan horse, it's primarily an ideologically shift, to shrink the state. This shock to the tax income will be followed up by a cut in services, as sure as night follows day. They want to reverse what is seen as 'government issues to solve' and push them back to the individual 

Their hope is that things are calm by the election and of course if it's not, it leaves the next government in the shit. So win win for Steve Baker and the 55 Tufton Street boys, who have their hands up muppet Truss's arse. Steve Baker wasn't joking when he said he was going to seize power.

Labour have to get the narrative around this correct, so they can brand the tories the fuck up's they are, so it cut's through the right wing media and sticks for a long time. Labour needs at least two terms to sort this shit out.

[egg]

I like him. I'm not sure about his ideology though in that he's not fully left nor new labour either. He's got honesty and integrity though, is bright, and garners respect - basically the opposite of Truss. I'm not a labour man, but I'd vote labour tactically to force change, and I'd be happy to see him as PM. 

[LuckyNumber7]

I don't regret voting Tory at all at the last election to get Brexit over the line. Now that's done I don't see anyone worth voting for. Clearly the current government are in a mess, I would have voted for Rishi who is at least competent, but Truss is just a simpleton. Conservatives only have themselves to blame for choosing her over Sunak. Labour are obsessed with identity politics and Starmer just looks weak and limp wristed, don't like him at all. I probably won't bother as it stands.

[whelk]

14 minutes ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

I don't regret voting Tory at all at the last election to get Brexit over the line. Now that's done I don't see anyone worth voting for. Clearly the current government are in a mess, I would have voted for Rishi who is at least competent, but Truss is just a simpleton. Conservatives only have themselves to blame for choosing her over Sunak. Labour are obsessed with identity politics and Starmer just looks weak and limp wristed, don't like him at all. I probably won't bother as it stands.

Sunak wouldn’t have won next election but would have been infinitely more credible than Truss. Are you sure you aren’t swallowing the way some papers like to label Starmer rather than what he is actually doing?

[LuckyNumber7]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Sunak wouldn’t have won next election but would have been infinitely more credible than Truss. Are you sure you aren’t swallowing the way some papers like to label Starmer rather than what he is actually doing?

I don't think I'll ever be able to forget the image of him kneeling for BLM. Just sums the guy up for me, seems to be trying too hard to jump on whatever bandwagon will make him popular at the time. Plus I can't stand his whiny voice. Comes across as very insincere to me.

[Fan The Flames]

20 minutes ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

I don't regret voting Tory at all at the last election to get Brexit over the line. Now that's done I don't see anyone worth voting for. Clearly the current government are in a mess, I would have voted for Rishi who is at least competent, but Truss is just a simpleton. Conservatives only have themselves to blame for choosing her over Sunak. Labour are obsessed with identity politics and Starmer just looks weak and limp wristed, don't like him at all. I probably won't bother as it stands.

Labour aren't obsessed with identity politics, the tories want to stir up this nonsense because it works for them. That's why the right wing media try make this nonsense stick.

[Fan The Flames]

Just now, LuckyNumber7 said:

I don't think I'll ever be able to forget the image of him kneeling for BLM. Just sums the guy up for me, seems to be trying too hard to jump on whatever bandwagon will make him popular at the time. Plus I can't stand his whiny voice. Comes across as very insincere to me.

I guess there is little chance that you would ever vote labour.

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Labour aren't obsessed with identity politics, the tories want to stir up this nonsense because it works for them. That's why the right wing media try make this nonsense stick.

Yes going to be funny how Mail and Express will be so desperate and fck all to work with Truss. And Starmer isn’t giving them any grounds to paint him as leftie. As you say the culture wars and identity politics stuff is all they will have.

Although sure won’t stop them with the Liz will turn us in to world beaters etc etc

[Fan The Flames]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Yes going to be funny how Mail and Express will be so desperate and fck all to work with Truss. And Starmer isn’t giving them any grounds to paint him as leftie. As you say the culture wars and identity politics stuff is all they will have.

Although sure won’t stop them with the Liz will turn us in to world beaters etc etc

Definitely the right wing press have always tried to 'warn' the public, Labour are coming for your savings/house/pension, the trade union barons will be running the country, your taxes will rise, they are fiscally incompetent...etc etc. It's all been bollocks. So as you say all they now have is that labour will turn your boy into a girl.

[Lord Duckhunter]

24 minutes ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

I don't think I'll ever be able to forget the image of him kneeling for BLM. Just sums the guy up for me, seems to be trying too hard to jump on whatever bandwagon will make him popular at the time. Plus I can't stand his whiny voice. Comes across as very insincere to me.

Remember he was the guy responsible for Labour’s Brexit policy which proved so disastrous for them.

On the plus side, he also scuppered any hope Theresa May had of getting BRINO through the HoC. 

[whelk]

Not in Starmer’s wildest dreams could he have imagined what Tories have presented him. 15 point lead would be ok but 33!  Arrogant twats have eaten themselves.

[whelk]

Crosby still thinks next election will be about Brexit. Comically inept

[rallyboy]

1 hour ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

I don't regret voting Tory at all at the last election to get Brexit over the line. Now that's done I don't see anyone worth voting for.

When did they get Brexit over the line?

That's just another of those half-finished, oven-ready projects that Boris kept promising but failed to complete.

[Lord Duckhunter]

7 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

When did they get Brexit over the line?

 

Are we still in the EU then? 

[buctootim]

41 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Are we still in the EU then? 

Oh cool. I thought it was about more than that. I look forward to being back in the single market and customs union. 

[Turkish]

We need a leader like this

although you freaks think defending traditional family values is right wing these days 🙄

[sadoldgit]

Whilst I am not usually a fan of Polly Toynbee, she nails the Tory UKIPpers nicely here.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/sep/26/labour-policies-election-shadow-chancellor-borrowing-tory-voters

[whelk]

They need to ditch this wet woman.

Been their downfall thinking these are issues that win them the next election. She is same woman who couldn’t say what a woman is. Get more like Tony Blair FFS and work out what voters care about

 

[saint1977]

20 minutes ago, whelk said:

They need to ditch this wet woman.

Been their downfall thinking these are issues that win them the next election. She is same woman who couldn’t say what a woman is. Get more like Tony Blair FFS and work out what voters care about

 

I wouldn’t sack her but if I was Starmer I’d remind her if the key areas of focus an attack which the majority of voters (of all faiths, creeds, and none) care about such as the cost of mortgages caused by Truss, run down services and transport (look at the state of the trains) and GP access. They’ve just reappointed Leaky Sue as well. Going down the culture war hole rabbit role, unless that’s your front bench brief, won’t contribute significantly to winning power. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[revolution saint]

32 minutes ago, whelk said:

They need to ditch this wet woman.

Been their downfall thinking these are issues that win them the next election. She is same woman who couldn’t say what a woman is. Get more like Tony Blair FFS and work out what voters care about

 

Think she got that wrong as well, it’s risen by 42% not constitutes 42% of all recorded religious hate crimes.

[whelk]

31 minutes ago, saint1977 said:

I wouldn’t sack her but if I was Starmer I’d remind her if the key areas of focus an attack which the majority of voters (of all faiths, creeds, and none) care about such as the cost of mortgages caused by Truss, run down services and transport (look at the state of the trains) and GP access. They’ve just reappointed Leaky Sue as well. Going down the culture war hole rabbit role, unless that’s your front bench brief, won’t contribute significantly to winning power. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Indeed and the fact that they think people are worried about the definition of Islamophobia not being clear shows them to be completely out of touch 

[Lighthouse]

They’ve got an open goal, they just need to tap it in.

• No taking the knee
• No confirming their pronouns
• No suggestions of 8pm curfews for men, even as a joke, when a woman is assaulted
• No CND stuff
• No Dianne Abbott
• No Owen Jones
• Just don’t even mention Israel, or anything related to Judaism, full stop.

[tajjuk]

They have always been a credible option, its just right wing dominated media scare mongering and focusing on dumb culture wars that is the issue, leading the turkeys to vote for Christmas.

Also whats wrong with Owen Jones? Guy talks constant sense. 

[sadoldgit]

13 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

They’ve got an open goal, they just need to tap it in.

• No taking the knee
• No confirming their pronouns
• No suggestions of 8pm curfews for men, even as a joke, when a woman is assaulted
• No CND stuff
• No Dianne Abbott
• No Owen Jones
• Just don’t even mention Israel, or anything related to Judaism, full stop.

Or they could just disband, all join UKIP and be done with it?

[whelk]

3 hours ago, tajjuk said:

They have always been a credible option, its just right wing dominated media scare mongering and focusing on dumb culture wars that is the issue, leading the turkeys to vote for Christmas.

Also whats wrong with Owen Jones? Guy talks constant sense. 

He’s an annoying little twat

[Lighthouse]

3 hours ago, tajjuk said:

They have always been a credible option, its just right wing dominated media scare mongering and focusing on dumb culture wars that is the issue, leading the turkeys to vote for Christmas.

Also whats wrong with Owen Jones? Guy talks constant sense. 

This is a delusion that the far left of Labour have long clung to, that anyone who doesn’t like them must have been brainwashed by the right wing press and cultural rhetoric. If Europe was run by people like Corbyn, forget Brexit the EU would cease to exist. Putin would have annexed half of the countries in it, whilst Jezza sat there dismantling our nuclear deterrent and lecturing us about how it’s all our fault, NATO expanded too aggressively. I don’t need the Daily Mail to tell me that, he’s said as much from his own mouth and was tweeting his support for an anti-NATO rally even as tanks were rolling towards Kyiv.

 

As for Owen Jones; he’s a nasty, angry misogynist, hell bent on denying the existence of women in any meaningful context, instead labelling them as ‘birth givers’ and ‘chest feeders’, whilst unilaterally assuming their consent for grown men to see them naked in a changing room. He seems to have it in for Starmer for daring to be electable and replacing his idealistic poster boy.

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

He’s an annoying little twat

Exactly. His politics don't even come into it if you can't get beyond wanting him to STFU. 

[Millbrook Saint]

8 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

This is a delusion that the far left of Labour have long clung to, that anyone who doesn’t like them must have been brainwashed by the right wing press and cultural rhetoric. If Europe was run by people like Corbyn, forget Brexit the EU would cease to exist. Putin would have annexed half of the countries in it, whilst Jezza sat there dismantling our nuclear deterrent and lecturing us about how it’s all our fault, NATO expanded too aggressively. I don’t need the Daily Mail to tell me that, he’s said as much from his own mouth and was tweeting his support for an anti-NATO rally even as tanks were rolling towards Kyiv.

 

As for Owen Jones; he’s a nasty, angry misogynist, hell bent on denying the existence of women in any meaningful context, instead labelling them as ‘birth givers’ and ‘chest feeders’, whilst unilaterally assuming their consent for grown men to see them naked in a changing room. He seems to have it in for Starmer for daring to be electable and replacing his idealistic poster boy.

Pretty much how I see the labour party and the left in general, they're all too busy hating rich people and tories to propose anything productive which might win my vote

How are they going to stop my mortgage payments raising by £500 a month next year?

How they going to reduce my utilities bill from £350 a month.

How they going to stop enough people crossing the channel in dinghies to fill St Marys more than 3 times over in a year.

Seems to me they have better things to discuss like Islamaphobia and whether women have penises than helping real working class people like me.

You can put the vile James O'Brien up there with Owen Jones as another nasty left wing knob

[whelk]

44 minutes ago, Millbrook Saint said:

Pretty much how I see the labour party and the left in general, they're all too busy hating rich people and tories to propose anything productive which might win my vote

How are they going to stop my mortgage payments raising by £500 a month next year?

How they going to reduce my utilities bill from £350 a month.

How they going to stop enough people crossing the channel in dinghies to fill St Marys more than 3 times over in a year.

Seems to me they have better things to discuss like Islamaphobia and whether women have penises than helping real working class people like me.

You can put the vile James O'Brien up there with Owen Jones as another nasty left wing knob

You got to take responsibility yourself not expect the government to sort it all out for you and cut your bills. Still sounds you are a hardcore Tory and they well and truly won you over. Oh btw it is Tory zealots that have caused your mortgage to rise so much. Oh and also they’ve been in charge for 12 years which is no time to get hold of immigration and have a workable system. Just imagine the bogeymen in charge. 
‘Left in general’ hating rich people - lol. No doubt you’d  doff your cap to Rees-Mogg on the way to the workhouse.

I expect you are probably brainwashed to think about women with penises as alway gets mentioned by the types o& you wanting to get worked up.  There is some truth in what you say but doesn’t feel like you keep yourself up to date.

Edited 31 October, 2022 by whelk

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, Millbrook Saint said:

How are they going to stop my mortgage payments raising by £500 a month next year?

How they going to reduce my utilities bill from £350 a month.

They released a detailed plan in August explaining exactly how they plan to address the cost of living crisis, which was supported by numerous senior figures in big business. But something about the tone of your post suggests to me that you wouldn't be interested in reading it anyway.

Then Truss came along and well and truly fucked the entire country with her utterly deranged plans that literally everyone with any economic sense could see were a recipe for disaster.