Possession Football

[Miltonaggro]

On 08/10/2023 at 17:58, Wade Garrett said:

Just watching 2 of the most proficient possession football sides - Arsenal v Man City.

It’s like walking football and is so fucking boring.  

If this is the model Saints are aspiring to I’ll probably give it a miss.

After last season’s Sport Republic car crash a lot of Saints fans bought season tickets in the expectation and hope that we would mount a determined promotion bid. There was a good chance that we would see exciting attacking football and strong positive style at SMS for the first time in a long time. A repeat of 2011-2012 in style and substance. Crop circle Russball is not proving successful. The likes of Arsenal and Man City play possession football because it works if you have a team of £50-100m ball players front to back capable of passing other teams to death. Maybe Wilcox and Martin thought that post relegation we would have that much more quality in the Champs than the opposition that it would tell, this is naivety, arrogance and error. So far teams have taken points from Saints in various ways, bombarding our goalkeeper, hitting us on the counter with pace, harassing, bullying, and being first to the loose balls, or by just being patient and sitting back waiting for the inevitable chance. We are so predictable and that is why we will fail in terms of Sport Republic’s stated target this year. Stick with this style and wait to see the substantial hit in season ticket sales next summer, at least it will mean several thousand less saints fans for the manager and his loanees to whine about. 

[Wade Garrett]

Saints performances aside, my original point is that possession football is really boring.  

A lot of sides out there are trying to copy Guardiola.  Personally, I can’t see the point of putting your goalkeeper or defenders under pressure by needlessly passing to them.

I don’t see the point of judging keepers on how good they are with their feet, and not how commanding they are, or, God forbid, how good they are at stopping shots.

If possession football becomes the standard, I’ll switch the tv off.  It took all my powers of patience to watch the Arsenal game on Sunday, and it was being billed as the game of the season.

It is so fucking tedious and boring.  

[James G]

On 09/10/2023 at 17:02, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Martin
This season (with the goal of promotion)
Scoring 1.55 per match against a xG of 1.93
Conceding 1.91 per match against xGA of 1.28

 

 

 

The last time we were promoted, we were scoring 1.85 per match. And conceding 1 per match.

This season, Leicester are scoring 2.09 per match against a xG of 1.61, while conceding .55 against xGA 1.11

 

 

 

Ipswich are scoring 2.27 per match against a xG of 1.93, while conceding 1.18 against a xGA of 1.23
 

 

Ralph/ Jones/ Selles
Last Season (being dumped out of the Premier League)

 

Scoring .95 per match against a xG of 1.19
Conceding 1.92 per match against xGA of 1.19

 

 

 

In recent seasons...

Ralph 21/22
Scoring .1.13 per match against a xG of 1.57
Conceding 1.76 per match against xGA of 1.67

 

Ralph 20/21

 

Scoring 1.24 per match against a xG of 1.31
Conceding 1.79 per match against xGA of 1.54

 

Ralph 19/20
Scoring 1.34 per match against a xG of 1.67
Conceding 1.58 per match against xGA of 1.55

 

The stats seem to imply the system is working, it's the players that are the issue

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, James G said:

The stats seem to imply the system is working, it's the players that are the issue

Players available are the critical component to a system

 

[eurosaint]

The essence of 'possession football' is touch, control, pass & move which we are currently doing, HOWEVER, when you look at the best exponents of this (basically Guardiola teams) they do it at a pace way beyond what we do... also when they transition it is in numbers and at breakneck speed which again we don't !

Lots of people are saying that we have a strong squad but the big question is "do they have the quality to play this system consistently" ?

So basically the principle is ok IMO but you need all elements to make it work and I suspect that we are still a long way from that (if ever).....

😐

 

[Miltonaggro]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Players available are the critical component to a system

 

Intelligent coaches outside the mega-franchises pick and set up the side based on its strengths, and players based on form. That system seems to work. 

[saintant]

15 hours ago, JRM said:

Some of you Neanderthals need to watch this, it's the way the game is going and we're ahead of the curve in its implementation 

 

They're moving the ball quicker than we do 🙂

[Alanh]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Players available are the critical component to a system

 

One part of the stats suggest that we ae not scoring as many goals as our Xg.  If the team/system/tactics is creating the chances what change to the system would you suggest which will mean that more chances get converted into goals?

[AlexLaw76]

38 minutes ago, Alanh said:

One part of the stats suggest that we ae not scoring as many goals as our Xg.  If the team/system/tactics is creating the chances what change to the system would you suggest which will mean that more chances get converted into goals?

What would I suggest? One that gets the best out of our players. 
 

I am not a multi millionaire football manager, bright in to get a team promoted this season. Martin is failing on this point.

[Saint Billy]

I've noticed that a lot of the time when passing square the pass often goes behind the player passed to which results in lost momentum which normally ends up in move backward and another square pass or back to the goalkeeper.

Positive possession based football can be attacking and exciting but the way we are doing it is risk averse, dull and totally lacking anything apart from keeping possession until one of our ill equipped for this style of play gives possession away. 

[OldNick]

I hear often that by having the ball more than the opposition they can't score, bleeding good job too, as imagine our goal difference if we hadn't had 60% possession!

I agree with Wade that the Arsenal /Man C game was tedious. Technically good but boy is it dull where it goes forward/sideways then back. I prefer cut and thrust and so Spurs, Brighton are good to watch. Pep is a fantastic manager and I respect him greatly, but he has players who can pass through the eye of a needle dont think many of our team can pass that well.

Surely having the ball upfield and battling for the ball close to the opposition goal enables us to get a chance. Im a dinosaur who enjoys the ball in the box and being aggressive in midfield, playing the ball to a centre forward with someone for flick ons, to a degree Koeman did so with Pelle. Having the budget and quality we will ever have I can't see us ever having the ability to cope playing RM in the Prem

Edited 11 October, 2023 by OldNick

[S-Clarke]

14 hours ago, vectraman said:

One of Saints finest performances was when we dismantled Arsenal 4-0 on Boxing Day under Koeman. Cuco’s wondergoal match. It was fun, entertaining and we smashed them. 
28% possession I believe that night. 
What I’d hope is our management team analyse the opposition, and then set up Saints to exploit their weaknesses and nullify their strengths. Just turning up and saying we are playing our way and ignoring the opposition is somewhat naive and amateurish.

Play the way to beat your opposition seems to make sense to me. Maybe why I’m not a football manager 😁

It's funny you highlight that one, it came in the middle of one of our worst runs in many, many years - Koeman was being questioned and the knives were out. I think we went on and lost the following 2 as well. 4 points from 24 available was the grand total I think. The Arsenal game was a total freak if anything.

[Captain Jack]

If I recall when Leicester won the Premier league they usually had lower possession in games than their opponents, preferring a solid defence and the ability to move forward quickly on the break - benefitting from the pace they had up front with Vardy. They employed a similar tactic when they demolished us a few weeks back. we seem to be getting sucked in to this posession mentality and one of two things is happening. Either we are losing posession in our own half - often right in front of goal - and conceding. or we are losing posession in the opposition half, getting caught by a quick (leicester style) break, and conceding. What we are not doing is using the posession to grind down the opposition, forcing them to make the mistake and getting plenty of openings for ourselves. Logic would state that with the pace of Sulemana, Edozie, Frazer even both Armstrongs, we should be looking to catch teams on the break rather than slowly trying to pass our way into the goal mouth.

[Dark Munster]

7 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

Come up to Eastleigh Walking Football we have a few in 80’s still playing in own session. 
Been playing this for about 8 years now and it’s great for mental health, camaraderie, fitness etc

We also need refs:-)

Have you asked Joe Aribo?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

6 hours ago, Wade Garrett said:

Saints performances aside, my original point is that possession football is really boring.  

A lot of sides out there are trying to copy Guardiola.  Personally, I can’t see the point of putting your goalkeeper or defenders under pressure by needlessly passing to them.

I don’t see the point of judging keepers on how good they are with their feet, and not how commanding they are, or, God forbid, how good they are at stopping shots.

If possession football becomes the standard, I’ll switch the tv off.  It took all my powers of patience to watch the Arsenal game on Sunday, and it was being billed as the game of the season.

It is so fucking tedious and boring.  

I agree that passing can football can be boring. I got pretty tired of watching Barcelona although at times they could be thrilling too.

Do you really not understand the point of having goalkeepers and defenders passing though? It's to draw the opposition forward and out of their shape to leave spaces to attack. Breaking teams down who've come to defend is something we've been woeful at for several seasons, and while it can look silly when it doesn't come off, it's a tactic we need to learn

Edited 11 October, 2023 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Whitey Grandad]

4 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

I agree that passing can football can be boring. I got pretty tired of watching Barcelona although at times they could be thrilling too.

Do you really not understand the point of having goalkeepers and defenders passing though? It's to draw the opposition forward and out of their shape to leave spaces to attack. Breaking teams down who've come to defend is something we've been woeful at for several seasons, and while it can look silly when it doesn't come off, it's a tactic we need to learn

But if the opposition doesn’t take the bait then you’re wasting everybody’s time. And if heaven forbid they snatch or fluke a goal then they’re just going to sit back, relax and smile at you.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

36 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

Have you asked Joe Aribo?

Hasn't got the pace for walking football. 🙂

[Turkish]

7 hours ago, Miltonaggro said:

Intelligent coaches outside the mega-franchises pick and set up the side based on its strengths, and players based on form. That system seems to work. 

Such a dinosaur. It's not 1992 anymore. Picking a team to play to it's strengths is how it used to be done. now we have philosophies, identities, the days of setting up to be hard to beat are the work of the good old fashioned 4-4-2 merchants, if you had your way i bet you'd want to bring in Howard Wilkinson as manager!

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

I agree that passing can football can be boring. I got pretty tired of watching Barcelona although at times they could be thrilling too.

Do you really not understand the point of having goalkeepers and defenders passing though? It's to draw the opposition forward and out of their shape to leave spaces to attack. Breaking teams down who've come to defend is something we've been woeful at for several seasons, and while it can look silly when it doesn't come off, it's a tactic we need to learn

No one used to moan they couldn't break teams down who sat deep when we used to have a big lad up top and get it in the mixer.

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

I agree that passing can football can be boring. I got pretty tired of watching Barcelona although at times they could be thrilling too.

Do you really not understand the point of having goalkeepers and defenders passing though? It's to draw the opposition forward and out of their shape to leave spaces to attack. Breaking teams down who've come to defend is something we've been woeful at for several seasons, and while it can look silly when it doesn't come off, it's a tactic we need to learn

Law of averages.  How many goals does it lead to - not many. How many times do we concede when we give it away In dangerous areas - quite often.

There are other ways of attacking.

[saintant]

1 hour ago, Dark Munster said:

Have you asked Joe Aribo?

He'd struggle with the pace of the game.

[verlaine1979]

9 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

Barcelona team late 00's was one of the best teams the world has ever seen. Similar to City more recently. They absolutely kill teams by relentlessly passing and tiring out the opposition. That's clearly the direction we are going in, but obviously at a far inferior level, but those foundations should still work.  

Clearly we are still very early in building these foundations and we've far from perfected it.  There is no doubt that we need more quality and potency in the attacking areas but we are definitely heading in the right direction IMO. We need far more from the likes of Sulemana, Alcaraz, Adams. Arma has exceeded my expectations this season already, and looks very much comfortable at RW. We still have "the best striker in the division" to come in. 

It's highly likely that auto promotion is now gone, and I have to say I was never expecting that this season due to the turmoil.  I say have some patience and enjoy the ride...

Unfortunately this isn't a style that scales linearly. Your players can either pass the ball quickly and accurately, or they can't. And if they can't, even if it's in terms of putting the ball a ball a yard behind the intended receiver so they have to stop and track back, the benefits quickly evaporate.

Up thread, someone talks about "what if your opponent sits back and doesn't take the bait when you're passing it around at the back". Good teams, like City and Barca then proceed to play the game entirely in your half. But we've already shown we don't have the skill or composure to play that way without losing it and getting killed on the break. Obviously you can still play keep ball in your own half to boost your possession numbers, but that's not the same...

And as others have said, no matter how purist the principle, Guardiola's sides have always been absolutely ruthless on the break. It's an integral part of the tactic. If you win it back in a good position, you bomb forward, no second thoughts.

Edited 11 October, 2023 by verlaine1979

[Miltonaggro]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Such a dinosaur. It's not 1992 anymore. Picking a team to play to it's strengths is how it used to be done. now we have philosophies, identities, the days of setting up to be hard to beat are the work of the good old fashioned 4-4-2 merchants, if you had your way i bet you'd want to bring in Howard Wilkinson as manager!

Koemansaurus, paleo-Saints 😀

I’d settle for Frankie Howard or Johnny fucking Wilkinson, at least he’d sort out the shooting! 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

Law of averages.  How many goals does it lead to - not many. How many times do we concede when we give it away In dangerous areas - quite often.

There are other ways of attacking.

How do you propose that we break down teams that sit back and defend against us?

[CB Fry]

2 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

How do you propose that we break down teams that sit back and defend against us?

Do whatever Leicester are doing 

[CB Fry]

2 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

How do you propose that we break down teams that sit back and defend against us?

Don't have one of the shittest goals against columns in the league. That would also help.

[Saint Garrett]

4 hours ago, verlaine1979 said:

Unfortunately this isn't a style that scales linearly. Your players can either pass the ball quickly and accurately, or they can't. And if they can't, even if it's in terms of putting the ball a ball a yard behind the intended receiver so they have to stop and track back, the benefits quickly evaporate.

Up thread, someone talks about "what if your opponent sits back and doesn't take the bait when you're passing it around at the back". Good teams, like City and Barca then proceed to play the game entirely in your half. But we've already shown we don't have the skill or composure to play that way without losing it and getting killed on the break. Obviously you can still play keep ball in your own half to boost your possession numbers, but that's not the same...

And as others have said, no matter how purist the principle, Guardiola's sides have always been absolutely ruthless on the break. It's an integral part of the tactic. If you win it back in a good position, you bomb forward, no second thoughts.

We can’t do it…yet… I think in time the players get more used to it, know when to play and when to not, it look Guardiola a lot of money and time to imbed his style, and that was a team that already played in a similar way. He’s also had 1 transfer window where the larger focus was out rather than in. I completely agree with the majority of what you’re saying, but, IMO, I’ll be judging at the end of the season. Until then he’s got my full backing. I’m fed up with chopping and changing constantly 

[Wade Garrett]

5 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

How do you propose that we break down teams that sit back and defend against us?

Football is a simple game made difficult by idiots.  I would have my wide players on the touch lines creating more space across the pitch.

 

[AlexLaw76]

11 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

How do you propose that we break down teams that sit back and defend against us?

Do what Ipswich and Leicester are doing...

done.

[Whitey Grandad]

8 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

We can’t do it…yet… I think in time the players get more used to it, know when to play and when to not, it look Guardiola a lot of money and time to imbed his style, and that was a team that already played in a similar way. He’s also had 1 transfer window where the larger focus was out rather than in. I completely agree with the majority of what you’re saying, but, IMO, I’ll be judging at the end of the season. Until then he’s got my full backing. I’m fed up with chopping and changing constantly 

We do that with every starting line up.

[Pamplemousse]

8 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

We can’t do it…yet… I think in time the players get more used to it, know when to play and when to not, it look Guardiola a lot of money and time to imbed his style, and that was a team that already played in a similar way. He’s also had 1 transfer window where the larger focus was out rather than in. I completely agree with the majority of what you’re saying, but, IMO, I’ll be judging at the end of the season. Until then he’s got my full backing. I’m fed up with chopping and changing constantly 

Agreed. I'm confident that once we get a bit of momentum we'll get going 

[Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan]

14 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

How do you propose that we break down teams that sit back and defend against us?

Players like Armstrong and Alcaraz, that can run at players and open up space for others in the process, and can play more intricate football. 

Mara isn't the answer off the bench that is for sure, he was hardly in the box when he came on against Rotherham, when we needed a presence in there the most.

[Miltonaggro]

17 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Have you asked Joe Aribo?

Threat from the bench! 

[Saint Garrett]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

We do that with every starting line up.

There is a difference between constantly chopping and changing manager and style etc, to tweaking line ups because of injuries or tactical reasons.

We can't play the same 11 players every game.

[Mystic Force]

Having a philosophy makes you predictable, and without the individual players able of changing the approach you will get countered that's the inevitability of all football tactics that get overcome by people who don't just sit there and take it.

[OldNick]

On 11/10/2023 at 16:11, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Do you really not understand the point of having goalkeepers and defenders passing though? It's to draw the opposition forward and out of their shape to leave spaces to attack. 

This is my very simplistic take. If the opposition want to make it difficult surely they dont get drawn forward.

We are relying defenders/goalkeeper to be able to pass the ball accurately for 90+ minutes without making a mistake, good luck with that one. These players were not IMO brought up or even used to play that way. Most were to stop the ball and kick it up the pitch, all of a sudden they are expected to play difficult balls with their feet. It all seems madness to me, but I know my little voice in the wilderness won't be heard and ill suck it up. Wherever we are I will still be having my week-ends buggered up by the team I have encumbered myself with lol

[Whitey Grandad]

7 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

There is a difference between constantly chopping and changing manager and style etc, to tweaking line ups because of injuries or tactical reasons.

We can't play the same 11 players every game.

“Nothing beats a settled team”

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

“Nothing beats a settled team”

A better team might.

[ErwinK1961]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

“Nothing beats a settled team”

Only one change made to starting lineup in the last three games isn’t it?

[InTheChannel]

https://inthechannel.blogspot.com/2023/10/boooo-gate-southampton-saga.html?m=1

 

Reaction to Downes comments on the noise at full time against Rotherham

[Saint_clark]

11 hours ago, InTheChannel said:

https://inthechannel.blogspot.com/2023/10/boooo-gate-southampton-saga.html?m=1

 

Reaction to Downes comments on the noise at full time against Rotherham

It did grate on me having a loan player that came in a couple months ago immediately start criticising the fans. Was he at West Ham when they tried to storm the directors box after they lost to Burnley? THAT is mental.

Booing when you drop points at home to Rotherham as a recently relegated team coming off the back of 10 years in the Prem is perfectly understandable. 

[Convict Colony]

Dont mind downes having a go, I've read on here for 3yrs how too many of our players are son in laws - I do not mind him dishing it out to fans, other players or the manager as what he said was true, he's being authentic.

Every club has moron people who happen to be fans.  We were all disappointed with the result but are aware it was down to terrible finishing from several people and them getting a route 1 wonder goal and thus the majority can contain our inner neanderthal tendencies.

Beat Leeds, Beat Stoke and draw with Rotherham - 7pts

Before those games most of us guessed we would of probably lost v leeds, would guess a draw at stoke and a win v Rotherham so realistically we'd of probably guessed we would have 4pts and lets not forget we lost 4 games in a row heavily before then.

So 3pts ahead of our pessimistic selves and I expect the loch ness drogba to make a big difference hopefully v Hull next week.

[Dellyears]

Downes probably doesn't realise what we've put up with at home in recent seasons

[sfc4prem]

The problem is our September has fucked it up for us, so any slips, like drawing at home to lowly Rotherham, just act as nails in the coffin of automatic promotion. For a fairly freshly assembled side with some decent talent at this level, that is frustrating for fans.

[CB Fry]

10 hours ago, sfc4prem said:

The problem is our September has fucked it up for us, so any slips, like drawing at home to lowly Rotherham, just act as nails in the coffin of automatic promotion. For a fairly freshly assembled side with some decent talent at this level, that is frustrating for fans.

Yep. I know people don't want to think about it but September meant no automatic promotion. Over before we even started. Over before the clocks go back.

So as you say, people raving about "7 points from three games, I'd have ripped your hand off" / "Rotherham just an off day" etc etc is frustrating. Because that's not enough is the point. There's no wriggle room to not beat the worst team in the league at home. If we'd have won those three in a row, hope. Tiny bit.

We didn't. We achieved mediocrity.

[AlexLaw76]

I suspect we will all be purring about a valiant 2-2 draw at Hull...but with 70% of the ball...Nice...

 

[JRM]

3 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Yep. I know people don't want to think about it but September meant no automatic promotion. Over before we even started. Over before the clocks go back.

So as you say, people raving about "7 points from three games, I'd have ripped your hand off" / "Rotherham just an off day" etc etc is frustrating. Because that's not enough is the point. There's no wriggle room to not beat the worst team in the league at home. If we'd have won those three in a row, hope. Tiny bit.

We didn't. We achieved mediocrity.

You're absolutely right, the whingeing players who didn't enjoy not being applauded for Rotherham at home need to understand that. Fanbase was galvanised and ready for the season and had the hope they'd allowed to build  be deflated so early on , we'll end up with Ifs and what could have beens but ultimately they're not near the standards fans expected of them. 

[madge]

Chuckle brothers football…. Me to you me to you… but the chuckle brothers moved quicker than we do.

in general our transitions are far to slow and we often go backwards… this just allows the opposition to get into shape.. expect a few more matches like the Rotherham game.

[Gloucester Saint]

4 hours ago, CB Fry said:

Yep. I know people don't want to think about it but September meant no automatic promotion. Over before we even started. Over before the clocks go back.

So as you say, people raving about "7 points from three games, I'd have ripped your hand off" / "Rotherham just an off day" etc etc is frustrating. Because that's not enough is the point. There's no wriggle room to not beat the worst team in the league at home. If we'd have won those three in a row, hope. Tiny bit.

We didn't. We achieved mediocrity.

All the posters who say it’s only one point off the play offs are also wrong because it’s 2 with the negative GD. Not as if his record at Swansea and MK wasn’t a huge warning with a red beacon on it.

The issue with only had one clean sheet so far is that if by chance we do squeak into 6th on the last day of the regular season, can you really see a couple of clean sheets needed to win the play-offs. Or just three decent performances when it matters? Not an end of season propaganda run aka Swansea. 

Bring an experienced keeper in for January and maybe. Given his aggressive defence of Bazanu at the fans forum. It won’t be with him in charge.

Edited 14 October, 2023 by Gloucester Saint

[Ex Lion Tamer]

On 12/10/2023 at 06:17, AlexLaw76 said:

Do what Ipswich and Leicester are doing...

done.

What Leicester do?