Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I saw the match in which we were totally battered for a great deal of it. What difference does someone make standing around a quarter of a mile away with an iPhone? Even pros are saying it would have made any difference. If it was a big deal don’t you think that the EPL would have the same rule?

This is just delusional. Why on Earth would we be sending people to spy on Boro’s training sessions if not to gain an advantage on the pitch? Saying, "oh well, we didn’t really gain an advantage because they had loads of chances to score," would get laughed out of court.

Boro could quite reasonably argue that they had a great tactical plan to win both legs but we’ve spent a spy up there to record all their formations, tactics, lineups etc.

Out of interest, why do you think we sent someone to spy on them?

[Midfield_General]

If Borough end up getting promoted then Gibbo has played an absolute fucking blinder, to be fair him

Don't get me wrong, he's a conniving little cunt but he's demonstrated a mastery of strategy, opportunism, execution, manipulation and influence that our vacuum cleaner salesman and his bunch of clowns could only dream of.

He has absolutely run rings round everyone in this, so far. 

Our board, the EFL, the panel, the media — everyone. 

Edited 53 minutes ago by Midfield_General

[Osvaldorama]

4 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

You also need to stop blaming the lawyers.

I don’t really understand your argument about different competitions either. One is a league format so a sporting sanction of points seems reasonable and one is a knock out competition where points are irrelevant so not sure why you’d expect the same punishment necessarily. 

A few days ago I said on here I thought it would be extreme to expel us but the more you read into it the more it feels logical.

The point is; we were charged under one competition, then they’ve treated it as two. Which means we have received double the punishment. 

Although I actually agree with you, tbh. 
 

It’s all a load of nonsense. It’s been handled terribly. But you’re 100% right, the more we see what happened, the worse we look. We probably do deserve to be out of the competition now all this new stuff has come to light. 
 

I’m just hoping for a technicality that gets us to Wembley. Mostly because I think our “crime” is way less than most other teams do on a weekly basis. 

[trousers]

1 hour ago, 23rdSaint said:

Then why release comms this morning that our game kicks off at 16:30 if we win our appeal?

Because they need to be seen to be  following 'due process'...?

Edited 57 minutes ago by trousers

[Sheaf Saint]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Hollywood twist ?

Wrexham striker Nosh Windass wants the playoffs rerun with them taking our place.

Ah yes, that famous porn star that plays for Wrexham.

[johnnyboy]

What I can’t make sense of is ,Boro lost over 210 minutes as did Millwall in their tie against Hull , so why are Boro getting a pass to the final , why aren’t Millwall in the shake up ? Our cheating didn’t mean Boro get a free ride to the final as part of our punishment, why is our punishment to award a place in the final to Boro and not millwall  , how is that possible 🤪🙄

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, johnnyboy said:

What I can’t make sense of is ,Boro lost over 210 minutes as did Millwall in their tie against Hull , so why are Boro getting a pass to the final , why aren’t Millwall in the shake up ? Our cheating didn’t mean Boro get a free ride to the final as part of our punishment, why is our punishment to award a place in the final to Boro and not millwall  , how is that possible 🤪🙄

because Boro were cheated against, Millwall were not (that we are aware of)

What they have done is what has happened in other EFL knockout competitions, whether we agree with it or not

Edited 57 minutes ago by AlexLaw76

[DrSuess1979]

3 minutes ago, SaintsLoyal said:

’Incredibly William Salt was alleged to have turned up to Playford Road ahead of Southamptons game with Ipswich, pretending to attend a family fun day adjacent to Playford dressed as Mr Blobby

That’s more like it 👌

[Saint_lambden]

Snippet from the POC I used to get info from (left in August) but still knows people at the club: 

Players held a meeting with Phil Parsons this morning upon arrival to training. It got pretty heated, some them accusing him of a cover-up and putting their careers in jeopardy.  He said he took the view, to not reveal full extent of the spying to them so they could concentrate on the semi-final/final. Said he didn't want them to find out the verdict at the same time as everyone else but the club had no control over the announcement from the EFL. 

Players wanted to know who would lead the team if (in the unlikely instance) we are reinstated and play on Saturday. He wasn't able to answer that. One player (no mention of who) made the point that it shouldn't be the case that Tonda takes the team if we're reinstated as if it's all okay then. 

Stephens has tried to calm tensions and be mediator. Even some of the training ground staff (not in Tonda's direct team) made their voices heard. 

No mention of if the manager was there and took training. What a clusterf--*k. 

[saintant]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

This is just delusional. Why on Earth would we be sending people to spy on Boro’s training sessions if not to gain an advantage on the pitch? Saying, "oh well, we didn’t really gain an advantage because they had loads of chances to score," would get laughed out of court.

Boro could quite reasonably argue that they had a great tactical plan to win both legs but we’ve spent a spy up there to record all their formations, tactics, lineups etc.

Out of interest, why do you think we sent someone to spy on them?

That's the 200 million dollar question. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

God and everyone else with half a brain knows.

Yet another black mark on the hierarchy - we spied on three teams yet played abysmally against them.

[hypochondriac]

How could Tonda have been so reckless and put so much at risk. We've paid the price for hiring such a relatively young inexperienced manager and not appointing someone with more experience alongside him. Not that that excuses what he's done 

[sotonjoe]

10 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

So we had less time to prepare for them in the hearing?

 

3 minutes ago, SaintLondon said:

Wait so let me get this straight, people are saying that the 4 points is for the additional spying and the expulsion is for the spying of Boro? That is mental. I hate that we did it and I have nothing but pure anger towards those that organised and executed it but that is not a crime worthy of the punishment. What is a bit petty of me is that I want us reinstated as much to play the game but more so to piss off 'Gibbo'

 

Yeh it's nuts. If they're separate competitions and separate punishments, expulsion from a competition for one count is a much harsher punishment than future four point deviation for two counts. Can't see that as justifiable or proportionate  

[Fabrice29]

1 minute ago, johnnyboy said:

What I can’t make sense of is ,Boro lost over 210 minutes as did Millwall in their tie against Hull , so why are Boro getting a pass to the final , why aren’t Millwall in the shake up ? Our cheating didn’t mean Boro get a free ride to the final as part of our punishment, why is our punishment to award a place in the final to Boro and not millwall  , how is that possible 🤪🙄

It’s incredible to think people on this forum were mocking Boro forums for being delusional and hysterical less than 24 hours ago.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Osvaldorama said:

The point is; we were charged under one competition, then they’ve treated it as two. Which means we have received double the punishment. 

Although I actually agree with you, tbh. 
 

It’s all a load of nonsense. It’s been handled terribly. But you’re 100% right, the more we see what happened, the worse we look. We probably do deserve to be out of the competition now all this new stuff has come to light. 
 

I’m just hoping for a technicality that gets us to Wembley. Mostly because I think our “crime” is way less than most other teams do on a weekly basis. 

That's how I see it really, we've been hit by twice as they want to class the playoffs as a cup competition - but they're including games from the league in the evidence pack for that charge, so it's a bit all over the shop from the EFL.

Whatever happens I'm properly ashamed though, you can say we didn't gain an advantage because Boro didn't take their chances, but the intent was there - that's the thing. We didn't go there for fun, we went there with the intent to get some inside information that could aid our result. I'm fairly certain we've done this multiple times and in games we've won.

I don't think this goes away any time soon, this is an absolute quagmire which will stretch the entire league and I think the EFL are making it more of one that they needed to.

[johnnyboy]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

because Boro were cheated against, Millwall were not (that we are aware of)

Yes but our punishment should not reward Boro , 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, johnnyboy said:

Yes but our punishment should not reward Boro , 

it is exactly what they have done previously in a knockout competition, this is not new other than the stakes at play

[saintant]

2 minutes ago, johnnyboy said:

What I can’t make sense of is ,Boro lost over 210 minutes as did Millwall in their tie against Hull , so why are Boro getting a pass to the final , why aren’t Millwall in the shake up ? Our cheating didn’t mean Boro get a free ride to the final as part of our punishment, why is our punishment to award a place in the final to Boro and not millwall  , how is that possible 🤪🙄

It's called Gibbo's Law.

[BotleySaint]

Just now, johnnyboy said:

Yes but our punishment should not reward Boro , 

I totally agree. It should be Hull up automatically. Since we are removed there is nobody for them to play on Saturday. 

[sotonjoe]

7 minutes ago, SaintsLoyal said:

’Incredibly William Salt was alleged to have turned up to Playford Road ahead of Southamptons game with Ipswich, pretending to attend a family fun day adjacent to Playford dressed as Mr Blobby

Source?

 

And don't say Noel Edmonds.

Edited 53 minutes ago by sotonjoe

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

That's how I see it really, we've been hit by twice as they want to class the playoffs as a cup competition - but they're including games from the league in the evidence pack for that charge, so it's a bit all over the shop from the EFL.

Whatever happens I'm properly ashamed though, you can say we didn't gain an advantage because Boro didn't take their chances, but the intent was there - that's the thing. We didn't go there for fun, we went there with the intent to get some inside information that could aid our result. I'm fairly certain we've done this multiple times and in games we've won.

I don't think this goes away any time soon, this is an absolute quagmire which will stretch the entire league and I think the EFL are making it more of one that they needed to.

Agreed with that that really we've been punished twice which is why I think they might consider taking off the points deductions on appeal. Not that that's any consolation for the players who will now all leave.

[LegalEagle]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Hollywood twist ?

Wrexham striker Josh Windass wants the playoffs rerun with them taking our place.

I understand that argument more than just letting Boro through

[Lighthouse]

On tomorrow’s episode of Judge Rinder; man caught running into bank with machine gun, balaclava and large sack labeled ‘Swag £££’. Defence lawyer claims he only went in to apply for a professional studies loan.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, SaintLondon said:

If we get reinstated I'll buy everyone in here a pint. 

That's unfair to those of us that don't have multiple login IDs...!

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, Saint_lambden said:

Snippet from the POC I used to get info from (left in August) but still knows people at the club: 

Players held a meeting with Phil Parsons this morning upon arrival to training. It got pretty heated, some them accusing him of a cover-up and putting their careers in jeopardy.  He said he took the view, to not reveal full extent of the spying to them so they could concentrate on the semi-final/final. Said he didn't want them to find out the verdict at the same time as everyone else but the club had no control over the announcement from the EFL. 

Players wanted to know who would lead the team if (in the unlikely instance) we are reinstated and play on Saturday. He wasn't able to answer that. One player (no mention of who) made the point that it shouldn't be the case that Tonda takes the team if we're reinstated as if it's all okay then. 

Stephens has tried to calm tensions and be mediator. Even some of the training ground staff (not in Tonda's direct team) made their voices heard. 

No mention of if the manager was there and took training. What a clusterf--*k. 

Staggering really. I'd be stunned if there was any training today, or if the manager was there. Interesting if that is the views of the players re: Tonda, you can imagine how totally let down they all feel. Some of them have put their careers on the line, THB with his jokey celebration, Downes coming out praising Tonda for knowing everything about teams before the game etc. I just feel like their names could be dragged through the mud, like us fans, without any wrongdoing on our part.

This is a flaming mess. I've never seen anything like this in my life.

[lumuah]

3 minutes ago, johnnyboy said:

Yes but our punishment should not reward Boro , 

It certainly helps if you have someone with a vested interest on the EFL board fighting your corner with their mates....

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, S-Clarke said:

Staggering really. I'd be stunned if there was any training today, or if the manager was there. Interesting if that is the views of the players re: Tonda, you can imagine how totally let down they all feel. Some of them have put their careers on the line, THB with his jokey celebration, Downes coming out praising Tonda for knowing everything about teams before the game etc. I just feel like their names could be dragged through the mud, like us fans, without any wrongdoing on our part.

This is a flaming mess. I've never seen anything like this in my life.

The kid was ultimately out of his depth. Needed to cheat and got hooked on it.

Will probably leave the club by any means come the weekend.

[Badger]

6 minutes ago, johnnyboy said:

What I can’t make sense of is ,Boro lost over 210 minutes as did Millwall in their tie against Hull , so why are Boro getting a pass to the final , why aren’t Millwall in the shake up ? Our cheating didn’t mean Boro get a free ride to the final as part of our punishment, why is our punishment to award a place in the final to Boro and not millwall  , how is that possible 🤪🙄

I know the feeling towards Middlesbrough and agree, but to be honest then being put into the final is a sideshow, albeit unpalatable.

I’d feel the outcome more justifiable if Hull receive a bye.
 

But none of that detracts from our stupidity in getting into this mess. 

[LegalEagle]

6 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

It’s incredible to think people on this forum were mocking Boro forums for being delusional and hysterical less than 24 hours ago.

Yes yes yes but we football fans are all the same just wearing different shirts. This could have been Preston and West Brom instead and the fans and what was said would have been no different. We’re all a bit weird.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

I assume the players are fucking furious with Tonda if its true they had no idea.

I wonder where the players thought all this new inside info was coming from from...? Or perhaps, unlike most humans, they weren't curious in the slightest...?

We keep hearing that "ignorance is not a defence"... Does that not apply to the players too...? #devilsadvocate

 

[Mboto Gorge]

3 minutes ago, saintant said:

It's called Gibbo's Law.

I think if anyone thinks that this ruling has absolutely nothing to do with the Boro CEO standing on the EFL board then thats very naive. They’ve literally got the exact outcome they demanded. Expulsion, points deducted next season, and their reinstatement into the final. Must just be a huge coincidence that they have influence on the EFL board along with Gibson pulling the strings with long running EFL connections and influence. Even Simon Jordan said that ruling would’ve been swayed by the EFL directing the so called “independent” panel that they wanted to push for expulsion. It’s laughable but Gibson has absolutely done us over so fair play to him on that. Hes been able to get away with doing so 

[saintant]

Just now, Badger said:

I know the feeling towards Middlesbrough and agree, but to be honest then being put into the final is a sideshow, albeit unpalatable.

I’d feel the outcome more justifiable if Hull receive a bye.
 

But none of that detracts from our stupidity in getting into this mess. 

Amen to that.

[Toussaint]

Lets just imagine for a moment we are reinstated against this background- from the Daily Echo

 

Southampton players reportedly exploring legal options

24 mins ago

Southampton FC

Football

Sport

Southampton

 

 

SAINTS players are reportedly exploring legal options after the club was expelled from the Championship play-offs, denying a chance at promotion.

 

The St Mary's outfit were due to face Hull City on Saturday, with the winner gaining promotion to the Premier League, before being expelled on Tuesday.

An appeal has been launched against the verdict, which also saw Saints slapped with a four-point deduction for next season's Championship campaign.

The punishment arrived after Saints admitted to spying on three Championship opponents, including Middlesbrough, who they beat in the semi-final.

Reports elsewhere indicate that Saints players could take legal action, due to a potential loss of earnings, if their expulsion from the competition is upheld.

Contracts typically include clauses to increase wages upon promotion, especially for those who took a cut of 40 per cent following last season's relegation.

The decision to kick Saints out of the play-offs, with Middlesbrough now replacing them in the final, has, for now, removed the chance to earn promotion.

The Daily Mail have reported players will now also miss out on bonuses due to them in the event of gaining promotion back to England's first division.

Their report states that a £150,000 promotion bonus would have been paid to any player who featured in 50 per cent of games this season.

Additionally, a one-off pool payment, worth at least £2million, was said to be shared throughout the squad if they beat the Tigers at Wembley.

The Sun say players are "furious" about the situation, while The Athletic suggest the squad could take on a class action lawsuit against Saints.

[egg]

34 minutes ago, CheshireSaint said:

Cherry picking then?

No, although I suspect the sporting penalty for Boro is the exclusion from the final, and the sporting penalty for the other games being the 4 points. If there was a current season exclusion for everything, that probably would/could/should have been exclusion from the playoffs as a whole... if I was a Wrexham lawyer I'd be all over that. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Mboto Gorge said:

I think if anyone thinks that this ruling has absolutely nothing to do with the Boro CEO standing on the EFL board then thats very naive. They’ve literally got the exact outcome they demanded. Expulsion, points deducted next season, and their reinstatement into the final. Must just be a huge coincidence that they have influence on the EFL board along with Gibson pulling the strings with long running EFL connections and influence. Even Simon Jordan said that ruling would’ve been swayed by the EFL directing the so called “independent” panel that they wanted to push for expulsion. It’s laughable but Gibson has absolutely done us over so fair play to him on that. Hes been able to get away with doing so 

but is was the IDC that set the sanction. Unless they were bought? (of course not)

[LegalEagle]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The kid was ultimately out of his depth. Needed to cheat and got hooked on it.

Will probably leave the club by any means come the weekend.

Can’t believe we haven’t sacked him yet today. Mentioned earlier how this would potentially help with an appeal.

[Sheaf Saint]

8 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Are you really that dopey. They caught us, that’s why we didn’t spy on them for the second leg, that’s why we didn’t watch the last 3 days of their preparation. It wasn’t a case of Tonda asking the bloke to pop up there and watch a few minutes of training, then come home. The judgment will be based on what effect cheating COULD have given us, not what it did give us. Anything else would be ridiculous, you’d be saying to Middlesbrough “well done for catching the bloke & bringing it to our attention, but because you did so, Southampton didn’t gain an advantage, so we’re not kicking them out”. 

FFS, people need to get a grip.

The way I see it, it's like catching and stopping a burglar from robbing your house but expecting your home insurance to pay out anyway. 

Boro were not cheated out of a place in the final, because they caught our spy and ejected him before he could obtain any useful information. Therefore the reward of being granted a free pass to the final as part of our punishment makes no sense whatsoever.

[sambosa75]

This thread is getting out of control so for now I’m just going to keep coming back and asking if we’ve been reinstated yet.  A swift response from one of you would be really appreciated to save me from the otherwise complete dirge that is being posted.

I may as well kick things off… have we been reinstated yet?

[hypochondriac]

Just now, trousers said:

I wonder where the players thought all this new inside info was coming from from...? Or perhaps, unlike most humans, they weren't curious in the slightest...?

We keep hearing that "ignorance is not a defence"... Does that not apply to the players too...? #devilsadvocate

 

I don't think it's fair to expect the players to investigate things to that extent. To a large extent I've made my peace with all the half talented ones leaving now as nothing we can do. Hopefully we can pull a team together of Bragg, Stephens, Quarshie and whoever else is laying around fro the youth team. I expect I'll be taking a break for some of next season though.

[saintant]

1 minute ago, Toussaint said:

Lets just imagine for a moment we are reinstated against this background- from the Daily Echo

 

Southampton players reportedly exploring legal options

24 mins ago

Southampton FC

Football

Sport

Southampton

 

 

SAINTS players are reportedly exploring legal options after the club was expelled from the Championship play-offs, denying a chance at promotion.

 

The St Mary's outfit were due to face Hull City on Saturday, with the winner gaining promotion to the Premier League, before being expelled on Tuesday.

An appeal has been launched against the verdict, which also saw Saints slapped with a four-point deduction for next season's Championship campaign.

The punishment arrived after Saints admitted to spying on three Championship opponents, including Middlesbrough, who they beat in the semi-final.

Reports elsewhere indicate that Saints players could take legal action, due to a potential loss of earnings, if their expulsion from the competition is upheld.

Contracts typically include clauses to increase wages upon promotion, especially for those who took a cut of 40 per cent following last season's relegation.

The decision to kick Saints out of the play-offs, with Middlesbrough now replacing them in the final, has, for now, removed the chance to earn promotion.

The Daily Mail have reported players will now also miss out on bonuses due to them in the event of gaining promotion back to England's first division.

Their report states that a £150,000 promotion bonus would have been paid to any player who featured in 50 per cent of games this season.

Additionally, a one-off pool payment, worth at least £2million, was said to be shared throughout the squad if they beat the Tigers at Wembley.

The Sun say players are "furious" about the situation, while The Athletic suggest the squad could take on a class action lawsuit against Saints.

Oh dear. It gets worse.

[Fabrice29]

Just now, sambosa75 said:

This thread is getting out of control so for now I’m just going to keep coming back and asking if we’ve been reinstated yet.  A swift response from one of you would be really appreciated to save me from the otherwise complete dirge that is being posted.

I may as well kick things off… have we been reinstated yet?

Yes.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Sheaf Saint said:

The way I see it, it's like catching and stopping a burglar from robbing your house but expecting your home insurance to pay out anyway. 

Boro were not cheated out of a place in the final, because they caught our spy and ejected him before he could obtain any useful information. Therefore the reward of being granted a free pass to the final as part of our punishment makes no sense whatsoever.

It does, as they were cheated against. The sanction is similar to another incident in an EFL competition recently

[BotleySaint]

Apologies if I missed it. But is it over the course of today that we have our appeal against the level of punishment?

So we should know for sure by end of today the final degree. E.g. how many points deducted and level of fine?

I suppose, assuming its possible, we need to argue this is the actions of a small group of people and the whole club, fans and players shouldn't be punished for their rouge activity.

[sambosa75]

Just now, Fabrice29 said:

Yes.

Wonderful.  See you at Wembley 👍🏻

[Toussaint]

One thing I don't need the panel to rule on, because I openly admit it, I have barley done any meaningful work in the last two days. So, for this reason only, please make the decision because it isn't far on the boss or people who depend on my output. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 minutes ago, johnnyboy said:

Yes but our punishment should not reward Boro , 

Yeah, because if the boot was on the other foot and Boro were caught cheating against us, you’d absolutely be calling for us not to play Hull wouldn’t you. 
 

Dear God, some of our posters.. the standard process in a cup competition is anyone chucked out for cheating is replaced by the team they beat. Can you give one example of where a team was booted out of a cup, to be replaced by a team who lost in a completely different tie. It’s not some conspiracy, it’s not the EFL on “Gibbos” pay roll, it’s not a media driven anti Saints agenda. If you’re chucked out of a cup after a breach of the rules in a game, the team you beat progress to the next round…

[Midfield_General]

3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

On tomorrow’s episode of Judge Rinder; man caught running into bank with machine gun, balaclava and large sack labeled ‘Swag £££’. Defence lawyer claims he only went in to apply for a professional studies loan.

You don't seem to understand the basic premise that that is basically exactly what defence lawyers are paid millions to do. 

They find ways to get people off, or if they can't get them off, to find ways to get their punishment reduced. That's the whole point of having a defence lawyer. 

Which they do successfully, a lot of the time. Hence why the good ones are so ridiculously well-paid and in-demand. 

Unless of course their client is a complete fucking idiot who admits to everything before the defence lawyer has had the chance to get their coat off.

Like - oooh, I don't know - Phil Parsons. 

[Toussaint]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

Yes.

yay!

but I don't want to go now, so boo!

[Toussaint]

1 minute ago, sambosa75 said:

Wonderful.  See you at Wembley 👍🏻

Who was buying everyone a beer?

[Saint Scott]

4 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

Can’t believe we haven’t sacked him yet today. Mentioned earlier how this would potentially help with an appeal.

Maybe he has, but it hasn't been communicated yet