Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[Saint NL]

No chance we are back in the final.

Best we can hope for is that Boro are kicked out and Hull get a bye.

[whelk]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Boro stsrt selling tickets at 1:00 pm, so no chance the EFL will reinstate us.

Shouldn’t come into it. I am optimistic based on fuck all but better than being a pessimist and permanently miserable.

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

What wind? We broke the rules repeatedly. It was systemic. Reportedly they have text evidence where we tell analysts to go and do it. The club paid for analysts to stay at hotels whilst we did it. We had images joking about it and we tried to disguise analysts so we wouldn't be caught. It's a clear and repeated breaching of the rules to try to cheat and gain an advantage. I don't see how they reduce the penalty to be honest although I don't think it's fair to have the appeal the next day even if I understand why they've done it.

Yeah we are goosed. 
 

The charges are way worse than it was made out originally. 

Spying is a minor offence in my eyes, but all this evidence and the way we’ve presented our defence is absolutely amateur. 

No chance they’ll reinstate us. Still don’t understand why Boro are back in though, feels corrupt to me. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, 23rdSaint said:

Then why release comms this morning that if we win our appeal, our game kicks off at 16:30?

Fucked if I know.

[Saint_clark]

Just now, Saint NL said:

No chance we are back in the final.

Best we can hope for is that Boro are kicked out and Hull get a bye.

Now that is the one outcome that definitely will not happen. For one thing, Boro weren't reinstated as part of our punishment - so our appeal has nothing to do with that. For another, the EFL won't go without a playoff final, they just won't.

[Saint Scott]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Boro stsrt selling tickets at 1:00 pm, so no chance the EFL will reinstate us.

It's not the EFL's decision. Dont forget, we'd sold out our ticket allocation before the initial verdict

[Ted Bates Statue]

One of the most astonishing stories I've heard out of all this is that in 2019, Liverpool agreed to pay Manchester City just £1M for hacking into their scouting database some years prior. That's all it cost for cyber crime.

Might as well have done the same and extracted other teams' own footage rather than sending Johnny English up there on his missions. We would've certainly saved on hotels, coffees and Eastleigh tracksuits.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11669/11815645/liverpool-paid-manchester-city-lb1m-settlement-over-scouting-complaint

[Nolan]

If there wasnt a chance of us being reinstated why bother hiring one of the best sports regulatory barristers in the country?

[saintant]

37 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

I know this could be realms of fantasy stuff but I do wonder if Boro and their whistleblower only put forward the Oxford and Ipswich cases of spying given we didnt win either game and, had they bought forward "evidence" of spying on Wrexham for arguments sake then the legal minefield would have definitely become more explosive.

Just a theory/thought. 

How did the whistle blower have any evidence appertaining to the Ipswich game? Thought we sacked him in December.

[hypochondriac]

I really wish,they had booted us out prior to the playoffs starting. The second leg especially seems like a complete waste of time and effort.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

This post is just to show I caught up with the thread.

Myself and Sherpa Watson will be making base camp here, ahead of stormy weather ahead.

[Saint Scott]

1 minute ago, Nolan said:

If there wasnt a chance of us being reinstated why bother hiring one of the best sports regulatory barristers in the country?

In fairness she was hired before we were expelled

[saintant]

37 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

I’m sorry but you and others keep pushing at this, what defence did you want him to put forward? They caught an employee in the bushes ffs 🤣

Thought he was stood in the open next to a tree?

[SNSUN]

1 minute ago, Saint_clark said:

Now that is the one outcome that definitely will not happen. For one thing, Boro weren't reinstated as part of our punishment - so our appeal has nothing to do with that. For another, the EFL won't go without a playoff final, they just won't.

Correct. The only thing that could be done which is what they should possibly have done in the first place is postpone the final until all parties can make their case. But that becomes difficult to do in a World Cup year and with other fixtures that need to completed from other Leagues and Sports.

[Osvaldorama]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

I really wish,they had booted us out prior to the playoffs starting. The second leg especially seems like a complete waste of time and effort.

yeah it’s fucking grim. 
 

I was at a trade show all day, raced across the country to be back for kick off. 19 hour day in total. All for nothing. 

[LegalEagle]

The EFL have screwed this up royally which might yet play into our hands in terms of relying at the appeal on a technicality. Once they had charged us, the EFL should have pulled the final on the 23rd for a date to be announced. We then have our 14 days to file our submissions and it goes from there. If after that we were still expelled and appeal routes were exhausted then our place in the play offs should have been taken by Wrexham. To just give Boro a bye is a joke. The World Cup hasn’t helped of course because some players needed to be released. No easy answers here.

[sotonjoe]

15 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

It wasn’t reported. The adjudicating panel were named and you can see on their website who sits on the panel. I have not seen anywhere who sat yesterday however and who is sitting as the appellate body today.

Which website? I'd like to look it up 👍

[hypochondriac]

I assume the players are fucking furious with Tonda if its true they had no idea.

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I really wish,they had booted us out prior to the playoffs starting. The second leg especially seems like a complete waste of time and effort.

I will always stand by the opinion that the EFL have made a right royal mess of this.

Like you say, they should have paused the 1st game - or at the very least, the 2nd game. Do this 'quick' deliberation they did, let us appeal, and then we know. If we're kicked out, the team who finish 7th get a crack in a 2nd leg at 0-0 against Boro.

By letting it drag on to just 3 days before the game is incompetence on par with our morons. Giving Boro a free ride to the final feels unfair in the context of everything.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

This means we can spy on Hull until 4.30 today, but Boro can only do it until 3.30.

 

Advantage Saints.

Said in jest, but nicely highlights the idiotic 'solution' the EFL came up with to deal with 'Spygate 1.0'....

[hypochondriac]

Just now, LegalEagle said:

The EFL have screwed this up royally which might yet play into our hands in terms of relying at the appeal on a technicality. Once they had charged us, the EFL should have pulled the final on the 23rd for a date to be announced. We then have our 14 days to file our submissions and it goes from there. If after that we were still expelled and appeal routes were exhausted then our place in the play offs should have been taken by Wrexham. To just give Boro a bye is a joke. The World Cup hasn’t helped of course because some players needed to be released. No easy answers here.

I'm not sure they have. Isn't the rule that they don't have to give us 14 days in exceptional circumstances ?

[Eire Saint]

16 minutes ago, BranfootsLoveChild said:

Do any of you guys think there is any chance of us being reinstated because I really don't think it will happen. Nice if it did, but just can't see it. 

From ChatGPT...

Looking at the best-known English football sanctions appeals — especially points deductions and major disciplinary punishments in the Premier League and EFL era — the majority have failed or only achieved a partial reduction.

Examples include:

• Everton FC — partially successful: 10-point deduction reduced to 6 on appeal in 2024.
• Nottingham Forest FC — appeal rejected in 2024.
• Leicester City FC — appeal rejected in 2026.
• Wigan Athletic FC — appeal dismissed in 2020.
• Multiple National League clubs in 2021 lost appeals, with only a few receiving reduced punishments rather than full reversals.

Based on publicly documented cases from roughly the last 20–25 years, a reasonable estimate is:

• Fully successful appeals: probably under 10%
• Partially successful appeals (reduced sanction): around 15–25%
• Any meaningful success at all: roughly 20–30%

So the short answer is:

In English football, teams historically have not been very successful on appeal. Roughly 1 in 4 appeals achieve any reduction or meaningful change, while outright reversals are rare

[Billy the Kidd]

Just now, LegalEagle said:

The EFL have screwed this up royally which might yet play into our hands in terms of relying at the appeal on a technicality. Once they had charged us, the EFL should have pulled the final on the 23rd for a date to be announced. We then have our 14 days to file our submissions and it goes from there. If after that we were still expelled and appeal routes were exhausted then our place in the play offs should have been taken by Wrexham. To just give Boro a bye is a joke. The World Cup hasn’t helped of course because some players needed to be released. No easy answers here.

I understood there can be exceptions to the 14 day rule though, and figured this was classed as an exception hence they expedited it.

Not that I agree with it btw, and also to only have <24 to mount an appeal again I am not sure is legal.

[LegalEagle]

1 minute ago, sotonjoe said:

Which website? I'd like to look it up 👍

https://www.sportresolutions.com/about/board-members

[SaintLondon]

If we get reinstated I'll buy everyone in here a pint. 

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I really wish,they had booted us out prior to the playoffs starting. The second leg especially seems like a complete waste of time and effort.

If they had had a set punishment to the rule that they had introduced after Leeds then everyone would have known where we stood. Sadly the EFL dragged this on so that we had to watch not only the first leg but also the second. The second particularly rankles.

[Willo of Whiteley]

Fast coming out now from many pundits how the punishment doesn’t fit the crime.

The EFL however will absolutely not be reinstating us in the final, imagine the reaction

[Midfield_General]

11 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I assume the players are fucking furious with Tonda if its true they had no idea.

Yeah, it's hard to see how his position is in any way tenable after this. He's done, surely. 

The players have worked their arses off and in the cases of those who took a 40% pay cut on relegation, which would have been reinstated if we got promoted again, have just seen millions in potential wages go up in smoke because of the actions of whoever was involved in the spying. 

Hence they are now considering their own legal action against the club for loss of earnings, if the media reports are to be believed: 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2026/may/19/southampton-kicked-out-of-championship-playoff-final-docked-four-points-for-spying

What a sorry state of affairs

Edited 48 minutes ago by Midfield_General

[Saint Scott]

2 minutes ago, SaintLondon said:

If we get reinstated I'll buy everyone in here a pint. 

At Wembley prices! Corr thanks mate

[Chez]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I really wish,they had booted us out prior to the playoffs starting. The second leg especially seems like a complete waste of time and effort.

You could argue spending time watching football is a complete waste of time, full stop. It was a great night though. Glad to have experienced it. 

[Miltonaggro]

2 hours ago, lhammondo said:

So you reckon most of these potential miracles are dead in the water? 

Not really potential miracles, rather quite rudimentary / common commercial litigation procedures.  If the remarkable rumour about Phil Parsons clumsily admitting wrongdoing to Gibson et al., in the Middlesbrough boardroom on the Saturday is true, the undermines any case (in a tribunal or at law) from the outset.  This is then exacerbated by apparent thinking that admission to the other two charges, and the knowledge of TE (which the public weren't aware of until yesterday) and working to the EFL compressed timescale would somehow work to our advantage or act as mitigation.  My thoughts on the radio silence was that it was a sign of advised competence (strategic) whereas it looks like it was masking incompetence. The silence is continuing and currently we are still missing most of the facts to map a path of causation.

I think the appeal today will prove fruitless, that's what the four point penalty is for - to use as a sop / bargaining chip for the 'new' panel - they will absolutely insist on the sporting sanction - the comment that Parsons has found a 'loophole' seems idiotic.  Saints will likely refuse that and commence litigation (along the lines of my original post for disproportionality and commercial loss) on conclusion of the appeal.  Likely an announcement will be made later today by the EFL that the final will be postponed.  SFC still have a chance at law, but this appears to have been diminished and greatly undermined by the actions of their staff and the approach to the hearing.   

   

[Farmer Saint]

2 minutes ago, SaintLondon said:

If we get reinstated I'll buy everyone in here a pint. 

Quoting for my pint.

[sadoldgit]

8 minutes ago, Nolan said:

If there wasnt a chance of us being reinstated why bother hiring one of the best sports regulatory barristers in the country?

Hmmm, I thought that there was no chance that we would be kicked out, so who knows what will happen next?

[Secret Site Agent]

All I can say is, its been a shit year so far.

I lost my job, (i do have one now), my car, 5 years old car the engine piston rings are fucked,(so the car is fucked and has to go), I got a parking fine for Wickes in Hedge end at 9pm at night when I wasn't there, (and the fine took 2 months to get to me so any CCTV evidence from my Ring Cam or Starbucks next door is gone) I got a £500 bill from the taxman which should have been paid off with my repayment plan, (high income child benefit and they told me on the phone, and on the Gov.uk website said i owned nothing when I cancelled the direct debit and take an extra £149, which they refunded), and now this.

Its gotta be me, i'm the fucking jinx.

 

Good job I don't wear a tie to work anymore or you would see me dangling on it somewhere over the M27.

 

The punishment doesn't fit to crime to me, but we did it THREE FUCKING TIMES!!!! 

We deserve to be punished of course.  Just not this.  But don't know really what else they could have done?

 

This is a new low for us, but the whole football set up is a cess pit anyway.  Now I see that the Prem is changing the rules so Man City can buy their way out of the 135 charges rather than the big fines and points deduction of others.

 

But its like an abusive partner, and me being enamoured with it.  It keeps hitting me and kicking me in the balls, and even with a -4 deduction least we can still win games, potentially.

Roll on year 2 in the championship, in hope we can do it all again next year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SNSUN]

1 minute ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Fast coming out now from many pundits how the punishment doesn’t fit the crime.

The EFL however will absolutely not be reinstating us in the final, imagine the reaction

Yeah it won't make a blinding bit of difference. If we do get reinstated I think the fact that in 24 hours I'd go from joy to despair and back to joy again, I'd probably keel over with a heart attack. 

[Toussaint]

Give Hull automatic promotion, its tainted for us, its equally tainted for Middlesborough who have not in any way earned the right to a another crack at promotion. 

[SaintStinger]

If only someone had mentioned the 72h thing. 

[benjii]

10 minutes ago, Ted Bates Statue said:

One of the most astonishing stories I've heard out of all this is that in 2019, Liverpool agreed to pay Manchester City just £1M for hacking into their scouting database some years prior. That's all it cost for cyber crime.

Might as well have done the same and extracted other teams' own footage rather than sending Johnny English up there on his missions. We would've certainly saved on hotels, coffees and Eastleigh tracksuits.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11669/11815645/liverpool-paid-manchester-city-lb1m-settlement-over-scouting-complaint

Literally a criminal offence!

[Wade Garrett]

7 minutes ago, Nolan said:

If there wasnt a chance of us being reinstated why bother hiring one of the best sports regulatory barristers in the country?

We're hardly going to hire a shit one.

[SNSUN]

1 minute ago, Saint Scott said:

At Wembley prices! Corr thanks mate

Cheers - I'll show you the tattoo of Phil Parsons kissing Will Salt that I'll have got on my bum.

[sotonjoe]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm not sure they have. Isn't the rule that they don't have to give us 14 days in exceptional circumstances ?

 

8 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

https://www.sportresolutions.com/about/board-members

Thank you. So who said it was sport resolutions handling original hearing and who reported the identities of individuals appointed to the panel by sport resolutions? Not challenging it  but I'm compiling my own records as I have nothing better to do

 

EDIT I can see BBC reported sport resolutions appointed

Edited 49 minutes ago by sotonjoe
New findings

[Bobsmith]

Just now, Toussaint said:

Give Hull automatic promotion, its tainted for us, its equally tainted for Middlesborough who have not in any way earned the right to a another crack at promotion. 

The match going ahead highlights the EFL corruption. If they want to kick us out, fine, but to maintain their payday they reinstate Boro

[Lighthouse]

Just now, Toussaint said:

Give Hull automatic promotion, its tainted for us, its equally tainted for Middlesborough who have not in any way earned the right to a another crack at promotion. 

Why not? They finished fifth and only got beaten by a team who cheated. It's not like we're giving QPR a go at Wembley.

[LegalEagle]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm not sure they have. Isn't the rule that they don't have to give us 14 days in exceptional circumstances ?

Here what you say but my counter to that would be that this was too important a decision not to follow due process. They’re trying to lay a precedent. Make sure everything is done to the letter.

[SNSUN]

Just now, Toussaint said:

Give Hull automatic promotion, its tainted for us, its equally tainted for Middlesborough who have not in any way earned the right to a another crack at promotion. 

There has to be a final IMO. No way are the EFL losing their Final money.

[SaintLondon]

I still don’t think we’ll get reinstated, but I do think the EFL may end up regretting this decision. It sets a pretty serious precedent and, in my opinion, opens the door to further litigation and complications down the line.

The thing I find particularly interesting is the argument that the playoffs are considered a separate competition and therefore had to be dealt with differently. But if the first instance of spying dates back to December, surely that makes it a league-related offence rather than something isolated purely to the playoffs?

Maybe that’s clutching at straws at this point, but the whole thing feels messy whichever way you look at it.

Honestly, I just want the appeal finished and done with now so we can all stop checking SaintsWeb every three minutes and move on with our lives.

[saintant]

16 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

There is a chance. Pretty slim but we’re still breathing. I never saw that coming yesterday. I thought the chances of us being kicked out were slim then. Can’t help but think if it had just been Boro then we wouldn’t have been kicked out. We’ve been way too honest here and not played the Man City game book.

Only until they turn the life-support system off.

[sotonjoe]

This bit interesting from the BBC 6 days ago ....

 

"The EFL has asked for an expedited hearing to accommodate next Saturday's final while Southampton have argued they need time for an internal review."

 

So initial hearing was expedited against Southampton's request. Would presumably be something significant to lean into at appeal.

Edited 50 minutes ago by sotonjoe

[Toussaint]

2 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

There has to be a final IMO. No way are the EFL losing their Final money.

I agree, but it doesn't accord with the hyper ethical stance the EFL have taken. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, SaintLondon said:

I still don’t think we’ll get reinstated, but I do think the EFL may end up regretting this decision. It sets a pretty serious precedent and, in my opinion, opens the door to further litigation and complications down the line.

The thing I find particularly interesting is the argument that the playoffs are considered a separate competition and therefore had to be dealt with differently. But if the first instance of spying dates back to December, surely that makes it a league-related offence rather than something isolated purely to the playoffs?

Maybe that’s clutching at straws at this point, but the whole thing feels messy whichever way you look at it.

Honestly, I just want the appeal finished and done with now so we can all stop checking SaintsWeb every three minutes and move on with our lives.

That's why they gave us a points deduction too. Kicked out for the Middlesbrough spying and points deduction for the other instances.