The Spygate Saga

[Charlie Wayman]

41 minutes ago, Sunglasses Ron said:

Neil Harris bang on the money to be fair.

List of badz people in the world...

5. Harold Shipman

4. Jimmy Saville

3. Ian Huntley

2. Adolph Hitler

1. TONDA ECKERT

I'm convinced he's looking at a minimum three month ban, so KO'd until the New Year.  That probably fits between the "we've been punished enough" and the "hang him up by his private parts" narratives.

I personally feel the club should have sacked him as this is surely another season ruined, but I do understand why they made the decision they did (which I think was partially made out of defiance to the grossly unfair punishment dished out).

We hung onto him because;

1. He is an outstanding manager with huge potential and we were very unlikely to be able to recruit a replacement anywhere near his calibre.

2. The players love him and if he had been kicked out of the club most of our "star" players wouldn't be here now.

There was no sentiment in it at all.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

47 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm surprised we haven't seen more of a coordinated response from some of our 'legends.' I'd have thought you'd have seen mlt, Benali, Lambert, Walcott in the media putting pressure on this week about proportionate responses. Maybe they've been told it would be a hindrance rather than a help but stuff like that does help shape a narrative.

MLT said the aliens would not take kindly to a lengthy ban.

The club didn't look for any more legends opinions after that.

[ChristopheVAFC]

Hello friends,

It’s the day the FA makes its decision regarding Tonda; I sincerely hope the FA will be lenient, as I feel the club was already heavily penalized last May...

Between the four-point deduction, missing the championship final, the loss of millions of pounds, and the impact on the club's reputation, I think the punishment was very harsh...

Hang in there, friends.

[trousers]

3 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

If we can prove it

Edit: Although thinking about it, his defence was that he said he didn't know what the rules were. So he/ the club can't have it both ways. 

I suppose, in theory, both could be true... i.e. he asked them to do it earlier in the week because he wanted to know as in advance as possible, not because he knew it would be against the rules if he requested it later in the week...?

Edited 1 hour ago by trousers

[SW5 SAINT]

43 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm hoping if they do ban him, we just go with Ben garner and refuse to sack him. If we fail to go up this season he's who I would want in charge to maybe get playoffs next year. Most options at the moment are massively uninspiring. Just my personal opinion and I don't think we will do.

The shelf life of a manager at this level is about 18 months tops. Tonda will be long past his sell by date by/for next season…..

[trousers]

3 hours ago, sfc4prem said:

I wonder what topic all of these fans of other clubs and sports journalists will turn their sanctimonious attentions to next?

Doris the tea lady at Blackburn flashing herself to members of their U21 team?

A clandestine drug and gambling ring uncovered at the heart of Portsmouth AFC?

The CEO of Middlesbrough getting a parking and unleashing a tirade of abuse to the parking attendant?

 

I reckon they should turn their attention to the disciplinary record of Neil Harris...

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

I suppose, in theory, both could be true... i.e. he asked them to do it earlier in the week because he wanted to know as in advance as possible, not because he knew it would be against the rules if he requested it later in the week...?

Not really a mitigation then is it. He accidentally didn't break the rules!

[Midfield_General]

I think we’re missing the real question here.

Which is: when the verdict is announced, what day and time will Saintsweb crash, what will the error message be, and how long will it stay down for?

I’m going for:

Friday 25th September

2.13pm

502 Bad Gateway

72 minutes 

 

[trousers]

2 hours ago, hippo said:

To be fair, I’ve only spoken to one guy who said we deserved the punishment - a Bristol City fan that has never liked us much anyway.  Everyone else thought it was OTT. 
 

Might just be my bubble though of course!

Echo this. Almost all my circle of friends (yes, I have a few... ) concur about the proportionality of the sanctions (both what the EFL dished out and what the FA might be about to).

It's almost as if social media is peppered with a vocal minority of numbnuts...

[hypochondriac]

Surely if it's a substantial ban announced today we will find out the outcome at some point today? The suggestion from the echo was that today could be a 15 minute meeting giving him the punishment but it could be another drawn our process where they interrogate him further. 

[trousers]

2 hours ago, qwertyell said:

Given that his previous bullshit defence was that he didn't know the rules, it'd be wild if his defence has now switched to "I was specifically telling them to do it within the rules. That I didn't know about."

We have the worst fucking lawyers. 

As I say, it *could* be a coincidence that he was requesting the info before it breached the rules... 

[IFHP]

Tonda admitted he broke the rules, and admitted he didn’t know the rule. 
 

He’s pleaded guilty, today’s not a trail it’s going to court to be sentenced. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, IFHP said:

Tonda admitted he broke the rules, and admitted he didn’t know the rule. 
 

He’s pleaded guilty, today’s not a trail it’s going to court to be sentenced. 

Or interrogated further according to the Echo. 

[Dr. Kucho]

Sorry haven’t paid to much attention lately about the hearing. So to get this straight, Tonda and the club hear the punishment today and tomorrow there’s an announcement?

Hope that if he gets a significant ban the club have a manager lined up to take over from Tonda. Hope he stays but if it’s a 6/9 month ban we’ll need to employ someone new. Can’t imagine someone will step up just for a couple of months whilst Tonda waits for his ban to end and takes over after again. 

[Sunglasses Ron]

18 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

We hung onto him because;

1. He is an outstanding manager with huge potential and we were very unlikely to be able to recruit a replacement anywhere near his calibre.

2. The players love him and if he had been kicked out of the club most of our "star" players wouldn't be here now.

There was no sentiment in it at all.

Sentiment no, but Solak himself stated that he didn't want to punish himself twice by sacking him.  Much has been spoken about the way we've closed rank (which I feel is a good thing) and I think that played a part in our decision to keep him (i.e. screw what everyone else thinks).  Unfortunately, this looks like it may be about to bite us in the arse.

[OldNick]

We did wrong but really if spying a teams training os so important why the hell is it so easy to go and watch. Im sure if you leave you house with the front door open and you get robbed the insurance compay wont look kindly on your actions. The whole episode stinks, the different stories, the state of the art spying equipment etc etc !!! 

 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Kucho said:

Sorry haven’t paid to much attention lately about the hearing. So to get this straight, Tonda and the club hear the punishment today and tomorrow there’s an announcement?

Hope that if he gets a significant ban the club have a manager lined up to take over from Tonda. Hope he stays but if it’s a 6/9 month ban we’ll need to employ someone new. Can’t imagine someone will step up just for a couple of months whilst Tonda waits for his ban to end and takes over after again. 

Not necessarily: 

"The hearing could be a 15-minute wrap-up with a verdict already reached and meted out, or the panel could be preparing for another lengthy session.

Eckert has already provided his observations in an interview in July, but he may be asked to provide further observations on their deliberations since.

Either way, the club will know more about the exact process that follows by the end of the day, whether it is an immediate answer or another wait."

[Fabrice29]

1 minute ago, OldNick said:

We did wrong but really if spying a teams training os so important why the hell is it so easy to go and watch. Im sure if you leave you house with the front door open and you get robbed the insurance compay wont look kindly on your actions. The whole episode stinks, the different stories, the state of the art spying equipment etc etc !!! 

 

It’s not that easy. There’s a rule in place and the punishment for breaking that has been pretty severe so far. 

[OldNick]

1 minute ago, Sunglasses Ron said:

Sentiment no, but Solak himself stated that he didn't want to punish himself twice by sacking him.  Much has been spoken about the way we've closed rank (which I feel is a good thing) and I think that played a part in our decision to keep him (i.e. screw what everyone else thinks).  Unfortunately, this looks like it may be about to bite us in the arse.

If we had sacked him the club squad and fans morale would have been rock bottom. We were given the -4 points dection and had a new manager come in and smelt the club out we could have been in a relegation fight.

 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Fabrice29 said:

It’s not that easy. There’s a rule in place and the punishment for breaking that has been pretty severe so far. 

No new FA rule though...

[Pamplemousse]

What punishment would the club likely accept and not appeal?

A one month ban? A touchline/stadium ban?

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Pamplemousse said:

What punishment would the club likely accept and not appeal?

A one month ban? A touchline/stadium ban?

I reckon anything over a six game ban would be worth appealing. Won't really matter though as the chances of an appeal succeeding would be nil. 

[ally_uk]

So what is the contingency plan? 

Say if Tonda gets a 6 - 12 month ban, Do we give the reigns to Garner / Lallana?

Or is a fresh approach needed to put this whole thing to bed and get a new manager and setup in? 

 

[LGTL]

Could any appeal delay the ban, meaning he could be on the touchline against Pompey?

[CSA96]

3 minutes ago, LGTL said:

Could any appeal delay the ban, meaning he could be on the touchline against Pompey?

Alfie House's write up today says:

There is concern that a ban from all football activity for three or more months is on the table, and none of the noise surrounding the case is positive.

If that sanction were ordered, Saints would appeal. Owner Dragan Solak has already indicated his belief that such a punishment would be unfair.

The club expect that, during an appeal process, which would be made public by the FA, Eckert could continue to manage, but this is also not guaranteed.

The FA panel can issue an indefinite suspension that would rule Eckert out while the case was ongoing, and there is no precedent for this kind of case.

The stakes are high for Eckert, as the FA could also apply to FIFA for any ban to be applied internationally, and this request is usually accepted.

[Sunglasses Ron]

44 minutes ago, OldNick said:

If we had sacked him the club squad and fans morale would have been rock bottom. We were given the -4 points dection and had a new manager come in and smelt the club out we could have been in a relegation fight.

 

I think a lot of people at the time wanted him to be sacked, but then we pretty much all pulled rank together (which was great really).

Anyway, the decisions were taken and we have to let it play out.  It was a brave stance to take, but may ultimately end in failure (and more embarrassment for the club).

Let's hope it's not as bad as we're now fearing, but I have little hope sadly...

Edited 51 minutes ago by Sunglasses Ron

[James]

To be honest, if he gets a meaningful ban I hope we move on relatively quickly and get a new manager, none of this appeal stuff that leaves us in further limbo. If Tonda gets the book thrown at him, after everything that’s happened I can’t see an appeal being successful. It’s completely ridiculous it’s come to this, given the relative lack of outrage at what Bielsa did, but it’s imperative we at least make the playoffs and have a chance of going up. We won’t do that if we have interim coaches in charge and uncertainty about who may or may not be our manager to the end of the season. 

[23rdSaint]

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/26577430.southamptons-eckert-fa-misconduct-hearing-spygate-scandal/?ref=rss
 

This is a brilliant article from Alfie House. It has the nuance and, more importantly, context that so many other commentators miss. Blackmore, take note. 

[Challenger]

38 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

I think we’re missing the real question here.

Which is: when the verdict is announced, what day and time will Saintsweb crash, what will the error message be, and how long will it stay down for?

I’m going for:

Friday 25th September

2.13pm

502 Bad Gateway

72 minutes 

 

Is the bad gateway any reference to where Will Salt stood or am I reading too much into it ?

[sadoldgit]

17 minutes ago, OldNick said:

We did wrong but really if spying a teams training os so important why the hell is it so easy to go and watch. Im sure if you leave you house with the front door open and you get robbed the insurance compay wont look kindly on your actions. The whole episode stinks, the different stories, the state of the art spying equipment etc etc !!! 

 

And has been said so many times, why is it ok to do it up to 72 hours before a match. Why is it also not banned in the EPL or in any other league around the world? The other point made multiple times, clubs can watch every game that other teams play as many times as they like on video. Not kicking around on a training ground but real tactics in real time in real matches. What are you going to get more useful information from? We know what the teams are an hour before the game with a good idea of how they will set up.

Games play out over 90 minutes plus and the outcomes are governed by what happens and how various people react in real time during the game. There is only so much prep you can do before a game no matter how much information you have on the opposition. We didn’t win any of the games we admitted to spying on the opposition beforehand.

Did we break an EFL rule? Yes, clearly.

Is the rule nonsensical given the above? Yes, clearly.

[sockeye]

4 minutes ago, Challenger said:

Is the bad gateway any reference to where Will Salt stood or am I reading too much into it ?

Its the error the site went down with when the news broke of us getting kicked out the final. Bad Gateway’s what happens when a server gets inundated with requests and can’t respond to them properly. 

[LordHester]

34 minutes ago, OldNick said:

We did wrong but really if spying a teams training os so important why the hell is it so easy to go and watch.

That's a bit like asking why, if shoplifting is illegal, shops put all their stuff out on display and make it easy to steal. It's cos people are expected to act like grown ups and accept that some things are against the rules. In Saints' case, the rules are part and parcel of being in the EFL.

Not to say that I don't think the level of punishment is utterly bonkers in context. 

[LiberalCommunist]

That's a bit like asking why, if shoplifting is illegal, shops put all their stuff out on display and make it easy to steal.

-------------------------------

 

But you are allowed to take the goods outside to your car without paying till 1pm. After that, its theft.

 

That's closer to the situation. 

[LordHester]

1 minute ago, LiberalCommunist said:

But you are allowed to take the goods outside to your car without paying till 1pm. After that, its theft.

 

Rules is rules, innit. You can't complain about them only after you've been caught.

[OldNick]

9 minutes ago, LordHester said:

That's a bit like asking why, if shoplifting is illegal, shops put all their stuff out on display and make it easy to steal. It's cos people are expected to act like grown ups and accept that some things are against the rules. In Saints' case, the rules are part and parcel of being in the EFL.

Not to say that I don't think the level of punishment is utterly bonkers in context. 

Fair but i suppose if you make no attempt to protect the valuables then you are foolhardy, but you are correct we brokethe rules. I will never understand why we needed to do it anyway!!! 

[Saint Pete]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

I don't think it's going to have any affect on proceedings at all, neither is that clickbait Harris interview. It's pure fantasy that the EFL and FA are doing whatever 'Gibbo' tells the press he wants to happen, we are being judged entirely on our own actions and not what's in the media.

I think you are being naive if you believe that media and public opinion has no impact or influence at all on scenarios like this. We can all argue about whether the EFL punishment in the club was correct and proportionate (quite possibly there is a good argument it was) but the massive OTT furore that blew up around what happened I believe would have at the least emboldened the EFL panel that the option of throwing us out and giving us a points penalty was not going to provoke a furious negative reaction in the media.

Think about how it might have played out if it wasn't little old Southampton in the dock but a much bigger fish with more fingers in the media pie. I suspect you would have seen much more public push back about how the offence was quite tinpot and almost comical in comparison to other cheating in the sport, with many useful pundits/ex players etc coming out to pressure the EFL saying it would be a ludicrous overreaction to go as far as expelling us. I'm not saying it would have been right if that had influenced them, but it certainly would have put in their minds that they may face a media backlash afterwards. Why do you think bigger clubs often get more lenient punishments than the smaller ones, it's a combination of PR/influence and the greater fear of litigation from richer clubs.

Whether using the media at this late stage could have any impact on the Tonda outcome is another matter, it depends on what is happening today. If today is purely about giving him his punishment, it's too late, but if it's true the final decision's not coming out until later, maybe even after International break, we could still be doing more to push back in media about what a sensible proportionate punishment should look like. 

[trousers]

Is there a limit on the number of analogies we're allowed to post on this thread per day? 🙂

[LordHester]

7 minutes ago, OldNick said:

I will never understand why we needed to do it anyway!!! 

Yeah, that's the sadness of the situation. Enormous risk with so little to gain.

[LegalEagle]

3 minutes ago, LordHester said:

Yeah, that's the sadness of the situation. Enormous risk with so little to gain.

It was a stupid thing to do. Hell of a price to pay for rank stupidity.

[LordHester]

4 minutes ago, trousers said:

Is there a limit on the number of analogies we're allowed to post on this thread per day? 🙂

Limiting the number of analogies would be a bit like ... oh shit, that's aimed at me isn't it?

[Saint Pete]

2 minutes ago, LordHester said:

Yeah, that's the sadness of the situation. Enormous risk with so little to gain.

Absolutely. You would say we possibly had the best team in our league and one of the best managers in the 2nd half of the season. So why feel the need to take such a big risk? Crazy. 

[Midfield_General]

26 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

And has been said so many times, why is it ok to do it up to 72 hours before a match. Why is it also not banned in the EPL or in any other league around the world? The other point made multiple times, clubs can watch every game that other teams play as many times as they like on video. Not kicking around on a training ground but real tactics in real time in real matches. What are you going to get more useful information from? We know what the teams are an hour before the game with a good idea of how they will set up.

Games play out over 90 minutes plus and the outcomes are governed by what happens and how various people react in real time during the game. There is only so much prep you can do before a game no matter how much information you have on the opposition. We didn’t win any of the games we admitted to spying on the opposition beforehand.

Did we break an EFL rule? Yes, clearly.

Is the rule nonsensical given the above? Yes, clearly.

Is the bit in bold the only point that has any actual relevance to this process and it's outcome?

Yes

[bpsaint]

27 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

And has been said so many times, why is it ok to do it up to 72 hours before a match. 

The argument is that anything within that 72 hour window is likely to be tactical training based on how a team sets up to face a particular opponent, and if a side plan on trying something slightly different it’ll be within that timeframe. Any training prior to the 72 hours on a standard Saturday to Saturday match week is likely to be generic fitness work.

It’s be easier if the EFL just said flatly no spying whatsoever.

[LordHester]

2 minutes ago, Saint Pete said:

So why feel the need to take such a big risk? Crazy. 

And I guess the answer is that apparently nobody knew it was against the rules, or saw fit to point it out.

[LordHester]

2 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

It’s be easier if the EFL just said flatly no spying whatsoever.

Well, it would probably be easier if the EFL just went along with every other league and didn't outlaw it.

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

Due a statement with the corner flag any moment now, surely?

[tdmickey3]

[Midfield_General]

14 minutes ago, trousers said:

Is there a limit on the number of analogies we're allowed to post on this thread per day? 🙂

Creating an analogy is very much like making love to a beautiful woman. You start with a point to prove, do your best to make it work, and when you've finished you're left wondering whether it was worth the effort.

Edited 27 minutes ago by Midfield_General

[obelisk]

4 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

It’s be easier if the EFL just said flatly no spying whatsoever

Or to erect a fence.

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Or to erect a fence.

As long as I can sit on it...