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Thread: The Sunday Times - Southampton put up for sale at £250m

  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    Very strange.
    That's it pal, swerve the issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    None of that really has anything to do with his performance as our owner.

    Wild allegations that he's been involved in corruption, an organised murder, and money laundering are serious. I've no idea what they're all about.

    Wild allegations? He was blocked by the Premier League because he wasn't deemed to be fit and proper.

    His staying under the radar could be arrogance and a lack of understanding of what English fans expect. Alternatively it could be the sign of a bloke who's not ego driven and would rather stay out of the limelight. Either way, I doubt you'd make the same complaint if he was low key but throwing tens of millions of pounds at the club.

    I don't care how his other businesses have done - they're of no relevance to our club.
    ​How is his history in business not relevant to the running of his current business? If I owned a shop, appointed a load of rubbish people to work there and drove it into the ground and then I took over another shop, would the new employees not be concerned based on my actions at the previous shop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    ​How is his history in business not relevant to the running of his current business? If I owned a shop, appointed a load of rubbish people to work there and drove it into the ground and then I took over another shop, would the new employees not be concerned based on my actions at the previous shop?
    The allegations benjii made are bloody serious. Were they the reasons he initially failed the fit and proper person test? Genuine question.

    We ain't a corner shop. I'm only interested in how he runs our club. I repeat, the fundamental issue most people has is that he can't or won't throw tens of millions at the club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    The allegations benjii made are bloody serious. Were they the reasons he initially failed the fit and proper person test? Genuine question.

    We ain't a corner shop. I'm only interested in how he runs our club. I repeat, the fundamental issue most people has is that he can't or won't throw tens of millions at the club.
    Do you know how hard it is to fail a fit and proper person test?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Do you know how hard it is to fail a fit and proper person test?
    No. But did he fail it for the reasons benjii suggested? Didn't he ultimately pass it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    That's it pal, swerve the issues.
    He hasn't swerved them whatsoever. You stated the only thing Gao has done that fans don't like is not throwing money into the club Benji responded with his reasons. It's not that complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    The allegations benjii made are bloody serious. Were they the reasons he initially failed the fit and proper person test? Genuine question.

    We ain't a corner shop. I'm only interested in how he runs our club. I repeat, the fundamental issue most people has is that he can't or won't throw tens of millions at the club.
    I'm well aware we aren't a corner shop thanks for the patronising reply, the principle is of course still the same. You'd be a fool not to use past business performance as an indicator of present business performance- particularly because we are currently performing so badly.

    Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

  8. #308

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    I'm well aware we aren't a corner shop thanks for the patronising reply, the principle is of course still the same. You'd be a fool not to use past business performance as an indicator of present business performance- particularly because we are currently performing so badly.

    Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk
    It's his performance here that matters to me. We all have different opinions and mine is that I'd like an owner to throw in loads of money and make us better. I accept he won't or can't do that but how Gao has done in other businesses is of no relevance to his ability or willingness to do that.

    The one thing we all appear to agree on is that we'd like a different owner. The one thing that you, me and a few others don't agree on is the relevance of what Gao has done in the past or is doing elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenridge View Post
    He hasn't swerved them whatsoever. You stated the only thing Gao has done that fans don't like is not throwing money into the club Benji responded with his reasons. It's not that complicated.
    He really has. He responded to the point you quoted with some absurd allegations of organised murder, corruption and money laundering! He also ignored the point that i suspect that any negative thoughts about Gao would fade away if he chucked money at the club.

    Be honest, none of us would mind if we never saw or heard of Gao if he was giving us cash to spend. All negativity flows from his lack of cash, not that keeps himself to himself. I mean, if he was joining in the pre match huddle and doing a Delia on the mic, he wouldn't suddenly become owner of the year would he.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manji View Post
    There’s already a close connection between us and Red Bull (Post 172)
    They are pretty much our best hope IMO, they run their clubs like we used to/try to, good scouting, development of young players that they ultimately know will move on, pressing football, basically maximising every percentage off the field to improve on it.

    They may be a soft drinks corporation and hated by most German football fans, but they way they have run their football clubs is excellent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    It's his performance here that matters to me. We all have different opinions and mine is that I'd like an owner to throw in loads of money and make us better. I accept he won't or can't do that but how Gao has done in other businesses is of no relevance to his ability or willingness to do that.

    The one thing we all appear to agree on is that we'd like a different owner. The one thing that you, me and a few others don't agree on is the relevance of what Gao has done in the past or is doing elsewhere.
    You realise that money is not the sole guarantor of success right? Quite possible to maximise our performance whilst Gao not putting his own money into the business. In that sense his judgement and recruitment is incredibly important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    You realise that money is not the sole guarantor of success right? Quite possible to maximise our performance whilst Gao not putting his own money into the business. In that sense his judgement and recruitment is incredibly important.
    Agreed - so what actually are you complaining about re Gao if it's not the lack of money? If it's that Wilson and Reed were crap, they've been binned. If it's that Hughes was crap, he's been binned. If it's that we have loads of crap players on daft contracts, Gao can't be blamed for the decisions of people he hired in good faith who made shocking decisions - he didn't know what Wesley Hoedt is like and whether he could cut it in the Prem!

    However you cut, the main issue for fans is the team, and the main issue with changing it is money. It all comes back to the same point - fans expectations that we spend money that we haven't got and that Gao can't provide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    No. But did he fail it for the reasons benjii suggested? Didn't he ultimately pass it?
    They changed the rule afterwards to refer to the commission of acts that would constitute a crime if committed in the UK so the situation wouldn’t arise again. He wasn’t convicted of anything in China or the UK so technically passed the previous test which only rules people out on the basis of actual convictions. The reports I have seen said he wasn’t convicted in China because he gave evidence against the guy who got executed. However it was established fact that he’d been involved in the bribery in question. I’ve posted about it before, with links to the rule and long quotations. I can’t be bothered to do it again.

    I also find it odd that you seem to consider anything he does outside the immediate purview of SFC as irrelevant. It’s only irrelevant if you are some sort of weird football-moral-solipsist and you don’t believe a person’s track-record is cause for optimism or concern.

    What has happened here is that you have been desperate to try to show you are cleverer and more rational than other fans - if only they would engage their brains - but you’ve run the argument into the ground and it’s time to give up. This has been a sort of adriansfc post on steroids, gone wrong by you.

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    I should add, I have no direct knowledge of anything he has or hasn’t done. I’m only repeating what I read in newspapers. Maybe it is all wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    They changed the rule afterwards to refer to the commission of acts that would constitute a crime if committed in the UK so the situation wouldn’t arise again. He wasn’t convicted of anything in China or the UK so technically passed the previous test which only rules people out on the basis of actual convictions. The reports I have seen said he wasn’t convicted in China because he gave evidence against the guy who got executed. However it was established fact that he’d been involved in the bribery in question. I’ve posted about it before, with links to the rule and long quotations. I can’t be bothered to do it again.

    I also find it odd that you seem to consider anything he does outside the immediate purview of SFC as irrelevant. It’s only irrelevant if you are some sort of weird football-moral-solipsist and you don’t believe a person’s track-record is cause for optimism or concern.

    What has happened here is that you have been desperate to try to show you are cleverer and more rational than other fans - if only they would engage their brains - but you’ve run the argument into the ground and it’s time to give up. This has been a sort of adriansfc post on steroids, gone wrong by you
    .
    The point is that we don't know what he's done. If he was convicted killer, fraudster or paedophile for example of course I wouldn't want someone like that associated with the club. He isn't any of those things and instead there's loads of wild accusations but ultimately he's not a convicted criminal.

    I've run nothing into the ground. I do however question the logic of anyone who thinks that an owner of a football club should be expected to throw tens of millions at that football club to never get it back and/or accuse the owner of all sorts of serious crimes then claim that as their dislike of the owner.

    Be honest, would you be as bothered about him as you are if he threw money at the playing side and we were performing better on the pitch? I suspect you'll say no citing his non existent criminal record or lack of Delia type passion.

    I repeat, the fundamental issue for most fans is our crap squad and performances. That comes back to money and the genuine reason for most of their dislike of Gao.

  16. #316

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    https://chinasportsinsider.com/2017/...ns-can-expect/

    Finally, what of Gao Jisheng himself?

    His background is certainly another question mark. In summary, he was caught paying bribes in order to win state contracts, but, in return for immunity, he became a witness for the prosecution, with his testimony leading to the execution of two officials. This bribery issue initially led the Premier League – not exactly known for its strenuous checks of potential owners – to block Lander’s bid for the club, but it appears that was overturned on legal grounds because Gao’s deal meant he was not technically convicted of any offense. As a direct consequence of this outcome, the Premier League voted to approve tougher ownership rules in case something like this ever arose in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    Agreed - so what actually are you complaining about re Gao if it's not the lack of money? If it's that Wilson and Reed were crap, they've been binned. If it's that Hughes was crap, he's been binned. If it's that we have loads of crap players on daft contracts, Gao can't be blamed for the decisions of people he hired in good faith who made shocking decisions - he didn't know what Wesley Hoedt is like and whether he could cut it in the Prem!

    However you cut, the main issue for fans is the team, and the main issue with changing it is money. It all comes back to the same point - fans expectations that we spend money that we haven't got and that Gao can't provide.
    Cortese got away with being a dreadful human being because he was relatively successful with the club. It makes you wonder what kind of grief Marcus would have got if he was still with us and we were performing as we have been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    The point is that we don't know what he's done. If he was convicted killer, fraudster or paedophile for example of course I wouldn't want someone like that associated with the club. He isn't any of those things and instead there's loads of wild accusations but ultimately he's not a convicted criminal.
    You could also apply that same analysis and conclusion to Jimmy Savile (for example)... #justsaying

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajjuk View Post
    They may be a soft drinks corporation and hated by most German football fans, but they way they have run their football clubs is excellent.
    Made a pretty good job of Formula 1 as well, which is no small achievement given the level of the competition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Convict Colony View Post
    https://chinasportsinsider.com/2017/...ns-can-expect/

    Finally, what of Gao Jisheng himself?

    His background is certainly another question mark. In summary, he was caught paying bribes in order to win state contracts, but, in return for immunity, he became a witness for the prosecution, with his testimony leading to the execution of two officials. This bribery issue initially led the Premier League – not exactly known for its strenuous checks of potential owners – to block Lander’s bid for the club, but it appears that was overturned on legal grounds because Gao’s deal meant he was not technically convicted of any offense. As a direct consequence of this outcome, the Premier League voted to approve tougher ownership rules in case something like this ever arose in the future.
    Ah but he wasn't fond guilty of anything so I don't care. Or something like that...

  21. #321

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    He's not a nonce so never mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    He's not a nonce so never mind.
    So he's a business man who gives bungs and not afraid to grass? Is that the extent of his wrong doing, or are you still claiming he's involved in assassinations, corruption and international money laundering?

    Would your strong anti Gao feelings subside if he spent millions and our team was better? If not, your anti business men paying for business stance is commendable.
    Last edited by egg; 12-03-2020 at 05:36 PM.

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    What people are missing here is that Gao kept two dreadfully performing senior employees, especially Les, in post and allowed them to spunk tens of millions up the wall. Carrillo and Pellegrino were gross misconduct alone. The owner should not be buying if he cannot afford to rectify the mistakes of poor employees he has chosen to retain, up to him or people around him to know the industry. Now all we hear is ‘Les spent this money on all of these contracts and we can’t buy before selling now’. BS - the club kept Les, their choice, stop blaming fans, players etc. Put it right. If you can’t, the club, the league and the sport is beyond your level. Get out to another buyer who can afford the game, wash your face/clean your money and get out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint1977 View Post
    What people are missing here is that Gao kept two dreadfully performing senior employees, especially Les, in post and allowed them to spunk tens of millions up the wall. Carrillo and Pellegrino were gross misconduct alone. The owner should not be buying if he cannot afford to rectify the mistakes of poor employees he has chosen to retain, up to him or people around him to know the industry. Now all we hear is ‘Les spent this money on all of these contracts and we can’t buy before selling now’. BS - the club kept Les, their choice, stop blaming fans, players etc. Put it right. If you can’t, the club, the league and the sport is beyond your level. Get out to another buyer who can afford the game, wash your face/clean your money and get out.
    Its a bit more complicated - it was the summer of 2017 when the wheels really came off. While Les had a growing number of critics then after some lackluster signings, shenanigans behind the scenes and his sheer hubris, he still had plenty of fans - or at least those who were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for his previous record. If Goa had come in and made wholesale changes, doubtless he would have copped a lot of flak.
    Last edited by shurlock; 12-03-2020 at 08:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Its a bit more complicated - it was the summer of 2017 when the wheels came off. While Les had a growing number critics then, he still had plenty of fans - or at least those who were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for his previous record. If Goa had come in and made wholesale changes, doubtless he would have copped a lot of flak.
    Fair enough and can see what you are saying but by January 2018 it was obvious MP had to go and any notion of a record transfer to support the worst manager in the club’s history - and I lived through the Branfoot era - should not have been entertained. Carrillo offered nothing and Les went onto waste the £85m VVD money which is still having an impact. OK, we’d still be stuck with Wes and Mario, but RH would have had a bit (albeit not loads) more room to operate in subsequent transfer windows. I must confess to being a Reed sceptic after summer 2016 with Puel and being very light on strikers and the Fonte debacle underlined it, but realise that may not have been a majority view at that point.

  26. #326

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint1977 View Post
    Fair enough and can see what you are saying but by January 2018 it was obvious MP had to go and any notion of a record transfer to support the worst manager in the club’s history - and I lived through the Branfoot era - should not have been entertained. Carrillo offered nothing and Les went onto waste the £85m VVD money which is still having an impact. OK, we’d still be stuck with Wes and Mario, but RH would have had a bit (albeit not loads) more room to operate in subsequent transfer windows. I must confess to being a Reed sceptic after summer 2016 with Puel and being very light on strikers and the Fonte debacle underlined it, but realise that may not have been a majority view at that point.
    Certainly a turning point for me. The previous summer we'd had the Toby fiasco. Although many will say this was out of Reed's control his interviews and blustering over it left him looking a hapless buffoon, an image he didn't recover from with the following poor transfer windows.

  27. #327

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    Well the accounts just posted should shut up the mongs who think we are run sensibly.

    £34m loss
    £90m owed in transfer fees

    Les Reed got a nice payoff of nearly £400,000.

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    Solent also say the club is not for sale.

    What a mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints foreva View Post
    Solent also say the club is not for sale.

    What a mess.
    Toby Steele said the directors are not aware of it, that does not mean Gao is not looking to sell. He may just not have told them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints foreva View Post
    Well the accounts just posted should shut up the mongs who think we are run sensibly.

    £34m loss
    £90m owed in transfer fees

    Les Reed got a nice payoff of nearly £400,000.
    #sustainablebusinessmodel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints foreva View Post
    Well the accounts just posted should shut up the mongs who think we are run sensibly.

    £34m loss
    £90m owed in transfer fees

    Les Reed got a nice payoff of nearly £400,000.
    £250m asking price is optimistic.

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    Cheers Uncle Les and Wee Ross for all that deadwood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints foreva View Post
    Well the accounts just posted should shut up the mongs who think we are run sensibly.

    £34m loss
    £90m owed in transfer fees

    Les Reed got a nice payoff of nearly £400,000.
    To be fair, every PL club will owe money for transfers and I expect the majority will owe a lot more than £90m.

    Our two main issues are:

    - An Owner who bought the club to supposedly take us forward yet who doesn't provide any additional investment.

    - A philosophy that relies on selling players in a market where, as Steele notes, most European clubs are only interested in loaning them. Combined with having fewer quality players to sell this isn't a good combination.

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    Where’s that Les Reed appreciation page(s)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints foreva View Post
    Well the accounts just posted should shut up the mongs who think we are run sensibly.

    £34m loss
    £90m owed in transfer fees

    Les Reed got a nice payoff of nearly £400,000.
    I'd prefer to see the whole accounts rather than a couple of headlines. Got a link? Accounts aren't yet available from companies house. A loss ain't new though, the last accounts showed an operational loss but if you're info is correct, hopefully people will understand why we couldn't sign more players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusic View Post
    To be fair, every PL club will owe money for transfers and I expect the majority will owe a lot more than £90m.

    Our two main issues are:

    - An Owner who bought the club to supposedly take us forward yet who doesn't provide any additional investment.

    - A philosophy that relies on selling players in a market where, as Steele notes, most European clubs are only interested in loaning them. Combined with having fewer quality players to sell this isn't a good combination.
    Frankly if a player can’t get into our current team, it’s unlikely a European club will want to buy them without an initial loan. That’s especially the case where we’re loading up on young players without much track record. In future, it points to buying slightly more established players from richer leagues (Italy, Spain and Germany) who might be more expensive but provide some insurance value in terms of ease of exit or sale should they not pan out. It also points to more Danso-type deals - in an alternate universe where Les and Ross arrogance and hubris are still running amok, you could easily imagine us buying that type of player. In that sense, it’s good to see we’ve learned our lessons.
    Last edited by shurlock; 13-03-2020 at 07:12 AM.

  37. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Le God View Post
    Toby Steele said the directors are not aware of it, that does not mean Gao is not looking to sell. He may just not have told them.
    As "SOUTHAMPTON FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED" is owned mostly by "ST MARY'S FOOTBALL GROUP LIMITED", which is turn is owned mostly by "LANDER SPORTS (UK) INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT CO., LTD" and Lander has one sole owner (Gao) and just two Directors (Gao and Tim Greenweel - who?), then you're probably right as the directors of the first two companies wouldn't need to be informed if Lander was for sale.

    Why is it so stupidly convoluted though, all looks like a bloody fiddle - I'm sure there are tax efficiency reasons and so on ... but.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    As "SOUTHAMPTON FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED" is owned mostly by "ST MARY'S FOOTBALL GROUP LIMITED", which is turn is owned mostly by "LANDER SPORTS (UK) INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT CO., LTD" and Lander has one sole owner (Gao) and just two Directors (Gao and Tim Greenweel - who?), then you're probably right as the directors of the first two companies wouldn't need to be informed if Lander was for sale.

    Why is it so stupidly convoluted though, all looks like a bloody fiddle - I'm sure there are tax efficiency reasons and so on ... but.
    This dude - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tim-gree...alSubdomain=uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by egg View Post
    So he's a business man who gives bungs and not afraid to grass? Is that the extent of his wrong doing, or are you still claiming he's involved in assassinations, corruption and international money laundering?

    Would your strong anti Gao feelings subside if he spent millions and our team was better? If not, your anti business men paying for business stance is commendable.
    Isn’t paying bribes or bungs the definition of corruption?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Isn’t paying bribes or bungs the definition of corruption?
    Backhanders to get business probably is to an extent, but it's not paying off officials to turn a blind eye to something illegal or something akin to that, ie corruption proper. The truth is that we don't know the extent of what he's been doing, but, if it's business related in China its not the ridiculous assassination or international money laundering suggestion that was thrown out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
    As "SOUTHAMPTON FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED" is owned mostly by "ST MARY'S FOOTBALL GROUP LIMITED", which is turn is owned mostly by "LANDER SPORTS (UK) INTERNATIONAL INVESTMENT CO., LTD" and Lander has one sole owner (Gao) and just two Directors (Gao and Tim Greenweel - who?), then you're probably right as the directors of the first two companies wouldn't need to be informed if Lander was for sale.

    Why is it so stupidly convoluted though, all looks like a bloody fiddle - I'm sure there are tax efficiency reasons and so on ... but.
    That’s only part of the picture. The UK director is Nelly Goa, not Jisheng Goa, and the ultimate holding company is in the BVI.

  42. #342

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    Whatever Toby Steel says...there are American investors interested.

  43. #343

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeG View Post
    Whatever Toby Steel says...there are American investors interested.
    Didn't one of the other ITK insinuate something about American owners as well ?

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    A football club that potentially won't play any games until 2021/2022. Can't see many investors jumping at the chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeG View Post
    Whatever Toby Steel says...there are American investors interested.
    The type that places huge debts on a club or the type that are very wealthy, bung a few quid at a club ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasoneuelllfanclub View Post
    Didn't one of the other ITK insinuate something about American owners as well ?
    K,Billy responded to Doddisalegend’s question about who he’d like to see as an owner with:

    F) American owners buying the club through loans put on the club

  47. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_clark View Post
    A football club that potentially won't play any games until 2021/2022. Can't see many investors jumping at the chance.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
    Most of our money is from the Sky TV money, and if the season gets cancelled the PL will probably still give out compensatory money as well to cover the prize money etc.

    And they might even compensate teams for loss of revenue from not getting any attendances, so I doubt finances would be a giant issue IMO, in normal circumstances we would only have about another two months or so of fixtures anyway with a gap until August with little money coming into the club.

    Global shares uncertainty is more likely to cause problems as any potential investor is not going to just have £250 million to freely speculate when they are potentially having other investments diminished.

  48. #348

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    The type that places huge debts on a club or the type that are very wealthy, bung a few quid at a club ?
    No idea who they are.

    We also have a future star in our academy...Alex Jankewitz. Was compared to Victor Wanyama only much much better. Showing the same kind of level as The Ox did....

  49. #349

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSAINT View Post
    K,Billy responded to Doddisalegend’s question about who he’d like to see as an owner with:

    F) American owners buying the club through loans put on the club
    K billy clearly had a source at or around the club a few years ago.

    but the past 2-3 years there’s been a lot of discreet ITK nodding but nothing has really followed.

    think even he would sadly admit that his ITK days are now over

  50. #350

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LeG View Post
    No idea who they are.

    We also have a future star in our academy...Alex Jankewitz. Was compared to Victor Wanyama only much much better. Showing the same kind of level as The Ox did....
    The new Brian Howard?

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