EU referendum

[Sheaf Saint]

more thicko's voted to leave, just say it

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/

"According the polls, university graduates were the most likely people to want to remain in the EU - while those with a GCSE or equivalent as their highest qualification were more likely to back Brexit.

 

This was a pattern that was reflected in the results."

 

So, yes. More thickos voted to leave.

[ecuk268]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/

"According the polls, university graduates were the most likely people to want to remain in the EU - while those with a GCSE or equivalent as their highest qualification were more likely to back Brexit.

 

This was a pattern that was reflected in the results."

 

So, yes. More thickos voted to leave.

 

Reminds me of a remark made by Nigel Farage when asked why UKIP*always did badly in London despite it having very high immigration. He replied that Londoners were generally too young and well-educated.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Didn't DC say that if there was a vote to leave he would be obliged to invoke Article 50 immediately ?

 

Also, legally the referendum was a non-binding advisory process, as referenda are in this country - only the PR vote had clauses making it enforceable.

 

Cameron told the British people the day after a leave vote , he would trigger article 50 . That was obviously a lie , strange that because only leave told lies according to the bitter remainers on here .

 

You are quite correct a referendum is purely advisory .

[Whitey Grandad]

Cameron told the British people the day after a leave vote , he would trigger article 50 . That was obviously a lie , strange that because only leave told lies according to the bitter remainers on here .

 

You are quite correct a referendum is purely advisory .

 

What he said was:

 

(http://openeurope.org.uk/daily-shakeup/cameron-government-would-promptly-trigger-article-50-in-the-event-of-a-leave-vote/)

 

He went on to say that “If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away.”

 

So he could have been referring to 'the process of exit' and he merely said that we had a right to expect it, not that it would happen.

[Lord Duckhunter]

That's one quote , he said plenty of times that he would trigger article 50 the very next day . He also said he'd stay on, another lie

[eurosaint]

So, over 17.4 million British subjects are thick or easily led by the national newspapers ?

Either that or 16.2 million British subjects are bad losers !

[Whitey Grandad]

Yes, a referendum in Britain is only advisory but so much has been built up around this one that there will be an expectation amongst 17million that it will be carried through and the other 43 million would just have to put up with it. True democracy doesn't work like that. We have a representative process whereby the elected MPs are chosen to take the decisions for us and pass the relevant legislation. This applies checks and balances such that even if a government is elected that only represents part of the population there will still be Members who can promote the interests of those who did not vote for the ruling party. Such arrangements are refreshed ever five years at the longest. This referendum may have had a clear result but it is certainly not a clear mandate for extreme drastic action and there will need to be a significant period of negotiations and haggling and the final outcome will need to be approved by the public possibly by another referendum but more likely by a general election. To light the fuse on Article 50 right now would be extremely unwise. Fortunately this is one decision that cannot be forced upon us.

[Whitey Grandad]

That's one quote , he said plenty of times that he would trigger article 50 the very next day . He also said he'd stay on, another lie

 

It's entirely understandable given the closeness of the vote.

 

It wasn't a lie. Saying that you will do something and then not doing it is not a lie. Saying that you didn't do something that you did is a lie.

[buctootim]

So, over 17.4 million British subjects are thick or easily led by the national newspapers ?

Either that or 16.2 million British subjects are bad losers !

 

Its citizens. Has been since 1982. You didnt vote by any chance?

[eurosaint]

Yes, a referendum in Britain is only advisory but so much has been built up around this one that there will be an expectation amongst 17million that it will be carried through and the other 43 million would just have to put up with it. True democracy doesn't work like that. We have a representative process whereby the elected MPs are chosen to take the decisions for us and pass the relevant legislation. This applies checks and balances such that even if a government is elected that only represents part of the population there will still be Members who can promote the interests of those who did not vote for the ruling party. Such arrangements are refreshed ever five years at the longest. This referendum may have had a clear result but it is certainly not a clear mandate for extreme drastic action and there will need to be a significant period of negotiations and haggling and the final outcome will need to be approved by the public possibly by another referendum but more likely by a general election. To light the fuse on Article 50 right now would be extremely unwise. Fortunately this is one decision that cannot be forced upon us.

 

Wasn't it the elected MP's who offered us the referendum and set the ground rules ??

[Whitey Grandad]

Wasn't it the elected MP's who offered us the referendum and set the ground rules ??

 

Yes but it's only advisory. The practicality is that all the laws have to be passed by Parliament. What were the ground rules, did you ever find out? They certainly weren't written on the ballot paper. Even the wording is ambiguous.

 

'Should the United Kingdom remain...'

 

Why, that's almost an opinion poll.

Edited 25 June, 2016 by Whitey Grandad

[eurosaint]

Its citizens. Has been since 1982. You didnt vote by any chance?

 

I voted to stay but respect the result for what it is !

Not sure why you are asking me though ??

[buctootim]

I voted to stay but respect the result for what it is !

Not sure why you are asking me though ??

 

As Whitey says 1) it was very close and 2) it was only advisory. Its perfectly reasonable under those circumstances to expect no major constitutional change without another vote - or at least a general election with clear manifestos before any implementation.

[eurosaint]

Yes but it's only advisory. The practicality is that all the laws have to be passed by Parliament. What were the ground rules, did you ever find out? They certainly weren't written on the ballot paper. Even the wording is ambiguous.

 

'Should the United Kingdom remain...'

 

Why, that's almost an opinion poll.

 

The ground rules were that over 50% and the resolution would be carried !

I reckon that most voters would have been aware of this !

[Batman]

Yes but it's only advisory. The practicality is that all the laws have to be passed by Parliament. What were the ground rules, did you ever find out? They certainly weren't written on the ballot paper. Even the wording is ambiguous.

 

'Should the United Kingdom remain...'

 

Why, that's almost an opinion poll.

 

the government and beyond have said time and time again that the result would be an instruction to them by the people

now the prime minister has resigned, more than likely replaced by a Brexit/brexit leaning bod. it is hardly going to not happen now.

 

at the end of the day, more people in the country (a massive turnout too) have told the people in power that we have to leave.

 

if this result is not followed through, there will be serious trouble in every single election from then on.

Edited 25 June, 2016 by Batman

[Whitey Grandad]

So, over 17.4 million British subjects are thick or easily led by the national newspapers ?

Either that or 16.2 million British subjects are bad losers !

 

...thick and easily led...

[buctootim]

That's one quote , he said plenty of times that he would trigger article 50 the very next day . He also said he'd stay on, another lie

 

If you're upset with that, you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait till Brexit Boris gets into reverse gear.

[eurosaint]

As Whitey says 1) it was very close and 2) it was only advisory. Its perfectly reasonable under those circumstances to expect no major constitutional change without another vote - or at least a general election with clear manifestos before any implementation.

 

This referendum was clearly included in the Conservative manifesto at the last general election so why do we need another vote ??

[Sheaf Saint]

Here's a very interesting take on things, copied from somebody on Facebook....

 

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

 

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

 

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

 

How?

 

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

 

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

 

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

 

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

 

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

 

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

 

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

 

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

 

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

[Batman]

suck it up Bexy you little snapper.

 

the UK is leaving the EU. To not do it now would cause all sorts of issues for every single election from now on

the EU want us to leave now

[badgerx16]

 

the UK is leaving the EU.

 

Don't hold your breath.

[ecuk268]

Yes but it's only advisory. The practicality is that all the laws have to be passed by Parliament.

 

This is where problems could arise. About 75% of MPs are pro-EU and there is also a majority in the Lords.

 

Any new legislation will have to get through the Commons. At that point, the referendum is irrelevant. The Government would have complied with the result, but we may end up with new laws that aren't a lot different to the present.

 

I see that the backtracking has already started. Farage has disowned the "£350m which will go to the NHS" claim and now MEP Dan Hannan and MP Nigel Evans (both from the leave campaign) have said that they couldn't promise that immigration will come down.

[shirleysfc]

Ben Page, Ipsos MORI: Just doing some analysis that suggests if same % of young had voted as over 65s we would still be in EU...

[Whitey Grandad]

This referendum was clearly included in the Conservative manifesto at the last general election so why do we need another vote ??

 

A manifesto is not a legal contract, more a statement of intent. Nevertheless a referendum was approved by parliament and held. The democratic part now steps in and it is for parliament to interpret and put into effect the legislation to implement the results. If the politics are such that it is not possible to achieve this and some sort of watered-down compromise is all that can be obtained or if parliament decides that it would really not be in the best interests of the country to press the nuclear button then a new mandate would need to be obtained. Hence another vote of some sort. This was a referendum and not a plebiscite. (In Australia the meaning of the two terms is reversed).

 

Bexy's post sums up the situation neatly. In any case during the negotiations it is best to keep the threat of Article 50 in full view but not actually invoked. There is a saying in chess: 'The threat is greater than the execution'.

[trousers]

I'm still sticking with my original pre-referendum prediction.... "Narrow exit vote followed by a reversal to stay in"

[saint1977]

suck it up Bexy you little snapper.

 

the UK is leaving the EU. To not do it now would cause all sorts of issues for every single election from now on

the EU want us to leave now

 

How old are you? Grow up, these are serious issues with a lot of skilled jobs in our major industries at stake. It's not a football match where anyone wins or loses. If the first phases of exit are mishandled - and with Johnson, Gove, Fox etc involved there's a high probability of cocking it up - we all lose our shirt. They need to get some experienced cross party negotiators in there who have the attention to detail and negotiation experience to pull the best deal out.

 

I still think they will activate article 50 but anyone who didn't think Boris, Gove and even Farage who isn't an MP FFS were pale and petrified at what was facing them on Friday as reality dawned is a liar. They should be eager to take up article 50 asap but they are bricking it.

 

I don't agree with bit on Cameron stitching Boris up; this was genuinely a disaster for DC. That said, Boris has to now prove that he isn't the Redknapp of domestic politics propped up by his media chums. His stint as London mayor did little to dispel this.

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm still sticking with my original pre-referendum prediction.... "Narrow exit vote followed by a reversal to stay in"

 

I think you may be right, at least I hope you are. For this to happen there would most likely need to be significant concessions.

[Whitey Grandad]

How old are you? Grow up, these are serious issues with a lot of skilled jobs in our major industries at stake. It's not a football match where anyone wins or loses. If the first phases of exit are mishandled - and with Johnson, Gove, Fox etc involved there's a high probability of cocking it up - we all lose our shirt. They need to get some experienced cross party negotiators in there who have the attention to detail and negotiation experience to pull the best deal out.

 

I still think they will activate article 50 but anyone who didn't think Boris, Gove and even Farage who isn't an MP FFS were pale and petrified at what was facing them on Friday as reality dawned is a liar. They should be eager to take up article 50 asap but they are bricking it.

 

I don't agree with bit on Cameron stitching Boris up; this was genuinely a disaster for DC. That said, Boris has to now prove that he isn't the Redknapp of domestic politics propped up by his media chums. His stint as London mayor did little to dispel this.

 

There was definitely an air of 'oh shît' about them. They seemed to think that they had achieved all they need just by Winn the vote.

[saint1977]

I'm still sticking with my original pre-referendum prediction.... "Narrow exit vote followed by a reversal to stay in"

 

I wouldn't be surprised - it'll cause mayhem though. It's probably more a pause for reflection which Merkel has also called for inspite of Brussels threats for a fast exit - but the latter could also be a pressur tactic on Gove and Johnson to walk the walk.

 

Interesting times Trousers, I still think we'll exit eventually but enormous can of worms about to come wide open.

[moonraker]

suck it up Bexy you little snapper.

 

the UK is leaving the EU. To not do it now would cause all sorts of issues for every single election from now on

the EU want us to leave now

 

Shut up you part three tw*t, you bore for England

[Batman]

Shut up you part three tw*t, you bore for England

 

part 3?

what the hell are you on about?

 

suck it up, you lost

[CB Fry]

Here's a very interesting take on things, copied from somebody on Facebook....

 

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

 

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

 

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

 

How?

 

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

 

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

 

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

 

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

 

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

 

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

 

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

 

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

 

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

It was pretty obvious from early on in the campaign that Boris didn't really want Leave to win, he just wanted Boris to win, and put himself in an unassailable position with Tory grassroots to lead the party and be Prime Minister. Narrow defeat, status quo, friends again, jolly good.

 

Like Corbyn a year ago, he's found himself in a jolly awkward position of winning something he really didn't want to, and then having to, like, do the thing now.

 

Cameron walking out yesterday was his masterstroke (within a cluster fu ck of his own making). Boris - go on clever ****, sort that lot out. I can think of no better old Etonian boffin to bring hope to the run down towns like Boston and Hartlepool. They'll be dancing in the streets there in, what, three years time? Or maybe sooner when fix-it Boris starts sorting it. Hopefully they'll each get one of those new £350m schools and hospitals. Maybe in week two or three.

[Whitey Grandad]

I wouldn't be surprised - it'll cause mayhem though. It's probably more a pause for reflection which Merkel has also called for inspite of Brussels threats for a fast exit - but the latter could also be a pressur tactic on Gove and Johnson to walk the walk.

 

Interesting times Trousers, I still think we'll exit eventually but enormous can of worms about to come wide open.

 

I still think Cameron's a prat but his prompt resignation and announcement that he was leaving the decision for the next PM has bought some valuable time for discussion.

[Plastic]

 

the UK is leaving the EU. To not do it now would cause all sorts of issues for every single election from now on

the EU want us to leave now

 

What sort of issues specifically?

[moonraker]

part 3?

what the hell are you on about?

 

suck it up, you lost

 

My country has lost and time will prove you wrong

[Whitey Grandad]

part 3?

what the hell are you on about?

 

suck it up, you lost

 

Everybody lost.

[saint1977]

There was definitely an air of 'oh shît' about them. They seemed to think that they had achieved all they need just by Winn the vote.

 

Absolutely - winning the vote is the easy bit - no one will thank them who voted Leave if is a sour exit on poor terms.

 

I'd get some experienced heads who can mix negotiation skills with ability to absorb complex detail - Rifkind, Alan Johnson - those sort of people. Cool heads at needed for article 50 and I didn't see any of those in the formal leave camp. As for Farage, look at his voting and attendance record at the EU parliament - can't do detail.

[Batman]

Everybody lost.

 

in your opinion

[Whitey Grandad]

The Scottish Question now has great significance. Just suppose they vote for independence, possibly conditional indepence if the UK left the EU. Parliament might then consider that they were no longer held by the referendum result since the United Kingdom would no longer exist and that the preservation of the UK was more important than an 'advisory' vote. A few major concessions on movement of labour or suchlike and then return to the people for a reconfirmation of their decision. Of course the jocks would need to get something out of it, more devolved powers perhaps.

[Antrimsaint]

As UK, sorry disunited kingdom, starts to break up, lose international significance, influence. England that's left will no longer have seat in UN security council and will retreat into isolationism. Maybe that's a good thing. The little Englanders that hark back to spitfires and Ian Botham (farage) will begin to understand they triggered this and we will eventually become as insignificant as Norway and Canada on the world stage.

If it stops our soldiers being sent to godawful places on imperial crusades maybe this will all have been worth it.

 

Sent from my YOGA Tablet 2-1050F using Tapatalk

[Whitey Grandad]

in your opinion

 

Let me ask you a different question. Would you still want to leave the EU if it involved the breakup of the United Kingdom?

 

As things stand that is the most likely outcome, in my opinion of course but let's just treat it as hypothetical.

[sandwichsaint]

suck it up Bexy you little snapper.

 

the UK is leaving the EU. To not do it now would cause all sorts of issues for every single election from now on

the EU want us to leave now

 

Looks like all you need now is someone with the balls to actually implement article 50, Cameron's resignation is a bit of a curve ball no? The EU want us out (tomorrow), we are rudderless for 3 or 4 months, and it turns out Boris doesn't really believe in anything beyond Boris; who knew it?

 

Leavers won't be getting £350m a week extra spent on the NHS nor will they be getting reduced immigration but whisper that one quietly (Mash will be gutted), but if we're really lucky we can pay a membership fee, 'that will be £350m a week Sir', and align ourselves with Norway to get back to where we pretty much started from.

 

Genius.

[Nolan]

UK government borrowing rates are at historic lows. 10 year yields at 1.08% 30 year yields at

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[shurlock]

There was definitely an air of 'oh shît' about them. They seemed to think that they had achieved all they need just by Winn the vote.

 

 

Some of the complacency on social media has been pretty impressive, such as pointing to the FTSE 100's limited fall. What our simple chums are oblivious to is that 80% of those companies earnings are derived from overseas, largely in $, so they gained from the brutal devaluaton of the £. So far from being a cause for celebration, that bounce was a reflection of sterling's weakness and a loss of confidence in the UK economy.

[shurlock]

UK government borrowing rates are at historic lows. 10 year yields at 1.08% 30 year yields at

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

What's that supposed to mean?

[badgerx16]

...thick and easily led...

 

 

This is the BBC news report Bexy mentioned earlier, voters who chose leave but fully expected to remain in the EU, ( mind you they are Yorkies );

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36630879

[shurlock]

This is the BBC news report Bexy mentioned earlier, voters who chose leave but fully expected to remain in the EU, ( mind you they are Yorkies );

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36630879

 

Did you watch Newsnight on Friday evening, the segment from Burnley (plenty of the locations are recognisable from trips to turfmoor)? I have nothing against the interviewees - they have legitimate grounds for anger; but the overriding impression you're left with is whether referenda are a good idea.

 

45m40s

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07gyxdf/newsnight-24062016

[Jonnyboy]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/

"According the polls, university graduates were the most likely people to want to remain in the EU - while those with a GCSE or equivalent as their highest qualification were more likely to back Brexit.

 

This was a pattern that was reflected in the results."

 

So, yes. More thickos voted to leave.

 

And racists.

[Whitey Grandad]

Did you watch Newsnight on Friday evening, the segment from Burnley (plenty of the locations are recognisable from trips to turfmoor)? I have nothing against the interviewees - they have legitimate grounds for anger; but the overriding impression you're left with is whether referenda are a good idea.

 

45m40s

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07gyxdf/newsnight-24062016

 

Whatever happens there are going to be a lot of disappointed people in Burnley. Like the old chap who said that we joined Europe to make things better. He obviously doesn't realise that they are, things could have been a lot worse. Britain has thrived under EU membership. That'll soon stop. There's also the lady who says 'give it a go'. Doesn't she realise that if she doesn't like it she can't take it back? I also am struggling to see where we are 'ruled by Europe'. I never come across of it. It's amazing what people will believe.

[Whitey Grandad]

And racists.

 

I met one in Hamble. "I'm not a racist. I just don't like foreigners". I kid you not.