Ref's 'big team' bias?

[warsash saint]

Once again we were at the end of another shocking performance by the officials against one of the big teams yesterday!!

 

As I mentioned in the post match thread, not one free kick given to us in first half, all the yellow cards, nothing for Chelsea, 3 Chelsea players allowed to amble off after being substituted, the 'goal' that was disallowed. I am not saying we deserved to win, but who knows what would have happened at 1-1?

 

Add this to the Alonso decision last weekend, the offside goal in the League club etc. etc.

 

Harder enough to play these teams at the best of the times, but for them to have a '12th' player, makes it near impossible. & it appears to be getting worse!

 

So is it just back luck OR are refs taking a 'back hander' to help the big boys??

[Batman]

I don’t think they are knowingly or willingly being biased. It is a combination of them subconsciously ‘officiating the occasion’ like clattenburg stated a while ago, with a period of terrible refs

 

The standard of officiating in the prem is utterly terrible. How mike Riley (or whoever the head of referees is) gets away with it, is a joke.

[Window Cleaner]

I don’t think they are knowingly or willingly being biased. It is a combination of them subconsciously ‘officiating the occasion’ like clattenburg stated a while ago, with a period of terrible refs

 

The standard of officiating in the prem is utterly terrible. How mike Riley (or whoever the head of referees is) gets away with it, is a joke.

 

That's probably why there are no british refs at the World Cup this year. British refs have a tendance to interpret the rules after their fashion. They do not apply the rules as they stand in many instances. It keeps the game flowing on occasions but it's a constant source of controversy.

[RedArmy]

Can't blame the refs for Hughes sh1t tactics.

[Whitey Grandad]

That's probably why there are no british refs at the World Cup this year. British refs have a tendance to interpret the rules after their fashion. They do not apply the rules as they stand in many instances. It keeps the game flowing on occasions but it's a constant source of controversy.

 

A referee has a duty to play advantage but this can often lead to a worse infringement. Would Stephens have been sent off if the ref had stopped Wilshere's shirt-holding earlier and then booked him for it? Often a player retaliates when he is being persistently fouled. Players expect to get protection from the referee too and often a free kick and a warning can pre-empt trouble later.

[ashnats]

they say it evens out over a season.

 

so we're due a few points from the referees in the coming games. we probably lost 3 at Chelsea last week, 2 at Watford. Unless someone can think of a single game that the ref's have swung in our favour, that's 5 points guaranteed.

[Hodgey]

West Ham - 3 pts we arguably shouldn’t have got. So owed one lucky ref win still in my book

[the saint in winchester]

I think the bias is subconscious. They seem to expect the player from the lesser team to be shirt-holding, tackling from behind, etc (Ie fouling)rather than the other way around. They don't think the superior player is likely to foul the inferior player so in a challenge they will assume the inferior player is likely to have fouled if the superior player is up in arms at losing the ball. But let's recognise the players appeals influence the ref as well.

[aintforever]

They are not deliberately cheating but there are always decisions where there is a degree of doubt and there is more pressure on them to give the decision in favour of the bigger club.

 

Not sure wether it is getting worse or not but I think it is vital for clubs like us that VAR is introduced, that won’t stop the bias but should definitely help.

[eelpie]

they say it evens out over a season.

 

The little clubs are evened out sure enough.

[Whitey Grandad]

I think the bias is subconscious. They seem to expect the player from the lesser team to be shirt-holding, tackling from behind, etc (Ie fouling)rather than the other way around. They don't think the superior player is likely to foul the inferior player so in a challenge they will assume the inferior player is likely to have fouled if the superior player is up in arms at losing the ball. But let's recognise the players appeals influence the ref as well.

 

There’s some of that in it.

 

Brian Clough insisted that everybody at his club be as nice to the referee as possible because you never knew when you might need a favourable decision.

[saint1977]

Has it ever been any different though Warsash, even pre PL? Off the top of my head, we had Glenda sparked out in the late 80s at Highbury, not even a free kick given but about 10 minutes injury time in which Arsenal came from 2-0 down and it punctured our great start, plus we lost a key player long term. Jimmy sent off on the halfway line at OT in the Cup when the ref melted like a groupie when Bryan Robson started kicking off. Steve Dunn at OT in 1996 disallowing Shipperley’s goal which shocked even Fergie. Henchoz’s handball volleyball punch at Anfield for the most obvious penalty ever and ignored.

 

I bet plenty of others can remember dozens of other incidents going back to the 60s and 70s and plenty of other clubs too that have been prey to poor decisions by bootlicking referees.

[saint michael]

The handball goal for Watford hardly got a mention. If that had been a top side you wouldn’t have head the end of it. Refs frightened to get it wrong for the big clubs so will keep giving... another feature of the prem I’m afraid

[Saint-Fred]

I think the bias is subconscious. They seem to expect the player from the lesser team to be shirt-holding, tackling from behind, etc (Ie fouling)rather than the other way around. They don't think the superior player is likely to foul the inferior player so in a challenge they will assume the inferior player is likely to have fouled if the superior player is up in arms at losing the ball. But let's recognise the players appeals influence the ref as well.

 

I would disagree, they almost definately make those decisions intentionally. The back pass against Chelsea in the league game for example...he would have given that against us in a heartbeat 100%.

How many almost identical fouls do you see where our players is booked and a top 6 player is not..these can be within minutes of each other?

If that had been Giroud yesterday and Mcarthy dropped the ball, as a minimum VAR would have been used to determine the outcome driven by the "ref in the stands". In an earlier round Liverpool had a penalty given (that they missed if I remember right) that was given by the "ref in the stands" when it wasn't seen by the ref on the pitch...I thought that was not how VAR worked? I thought the ref had to request it? Apparent not if it means influencing a decision in favour of the top 6 apparenlty.

It's clear that the referees are cheating to all but those who want the top 6 to be the top 6. I am sure every fan of any other club can give 100 examples of the big club bias..

[DuncanRG]

Our referees are doing well in a very tough, thankless job. I don't think they're biased but you do see them cowed at the big grounds occasionally. I don't think that applied yesterday.

[Shropshire Saint]

Which fixture do you think is most attractive for the FA for their showcase match - Man U v Chelsea or Manu v Saints?

[the colonel]

Also don't forget the media. If a ref makes a mistake against Saints there will be a few comments in the next days papers etc and the big clubs and their fan will see it as winging Saints (or which ever smaller club involved). Where if the mistake is against one of the big clubs media and their managers will go on about it constantly in the media. So decisions are likely to go against the smaller clubs because there will be less criticism in the media.

[Bit of a plonker]

How many incidents that have gone in our favour have we forgotten? I remember Fonte on many occasions got away with fouls that should have resulted in penalties against us, including matches against Man Utd. I think human nature is to forget the incidents we benefit from and focus on those that cost us.

[warsash saint]

How many incidents that have gone in our favour have we forgotten? I remember Fonte on many occasions got away with fouls that should have resulted in penalties against us, including matches against Man Utd. I think human nature is to forget the incidents we benefit from and focus on those that cost us.

 

I would safely say , there have been more decisions go against us! Apart from the Everton game, I cant think think of any times the ref has given a dodgy decision in our favour this season.... but can reel off numerous going against us - & lots in just the last couple of games!!

[Lord Duckhunter]

If that had been Giroud yesterday and Mcarthy dropped the ball, as a minimum VAR would have been used to determine the outcome driven by the "ref in the stands". In an earlier round Liverpool had a penalty given (that they missed if I remember right) that was given by the "ref in the stands" when it wasn't seen by the ref on the pitch...I thought that was not how VAR worked? I thought the ref had to request it? Apparent not if it means influencing a decision in favour of the top 6 apparenlty.

 

I suggest you subscribe to The Ref show podcast before spouting conspiracy theories. It’s ex referees & mangers analysing the weekends decisions and explaining the laws., sounds boring but it’s really not and it helps you understand why certain things happen. It is 100% not, ex refs sticking up for refs, they are quite critical at times.

 

Their view on the incident. Firstly, it wasn’t a foul, but would be given 9 times out of 10 in any game. Go near the keeper, it’s a foul in the modern game. As for VAR, Mark Halsey who blogged the game for them claimed Atkinson blew his whistle before the keeper carried the ball over the line, therefore it wasn’t a disallowed goal, which could be reviewed, but a subjective foul, which can’t be. Your example was different, you say in your Liverpool example that it wasn’t seen by the ref on the pitch. Atkinson did see something as he gave a foul, you’re comparing different scenarios. If the ref sees it, decides its a foul, that’s it end of. Whether the VAR assistant agrees or not is irrelevant. Had Atkinson not seen a foul, let play run on then the VAR assistant would get involved. He would then advise the ref on pitch “goal” or “foul on keeper”.

 

 

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[ecuk268]

Interesting article regarding unconscious bias in referees:

 

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/liverpool-vs-roma-home-advantage-referee-bias/

[vectraman]

I would safely say , there have been more decisions go against us! Apart from the Everton game, I cant think think of any times the ref has given a dodgy decision in our favour this season.... but can reel off numerous going against us - & lots in just the last couple of games!!

 

Home to West Ham. Our penalty right at the death was dodgy. Yes it was a foul, but soft as, and if it was given against us there would have been outcry...

So there is one example in our ‘unfair’ bank...

[Saint Billy]

Ref's big team bias or sh*te team with very frustrated fans?

[Saint-Fred]

I suggest you subscribe to The Ref show podcast before spouting conspiracy theories. It’s ex referees & mangers analysing the weekends decisions and explaining the laws., sounds boring but it’s really not and it helps you understand why certain things happen. It is 100% not, ex refs sticking up for refs, they are quite critical at times.

 

Their view on the incident. Firstly, it wasn’t a foul, but would be given 9 times out of 10 in any game. Go near the keeper, it’s a foul in the modern game. As for VAR, Mark Halsey who blogged the game for them claimed Atkinson blew his whistle before the keeper carried the ball over the line, therefore it wasn’t a disallowed goal, which could be reviewed, but a subjective foul, which can’t be. Your example was different, you say in your Liverpool example that it wasn’t seen by the ref on the pitch. Atkinson did see something as he gave a foul, you’re comparing different scenarios. If the ref sees it, decides its a foul, that’s it end of. Whether the VAR assistant agrees or not is irrelevant. Had Atkinson not seen a foul, let play run on then the VAR assistant would get involved. He would then advise the ref on pitch “goal” or “foul on keeper”.

 

 

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It might be worth a listen, however if they were sayi it wasn't a foul 9 put of 10 times, isn't that as clear and obvious an error as you can get? Isn't that what the system is for?

 

if "missed" incidents can be spotted on VAR then the system is still open to Bias. Would the ref in the stands have given the penalty to West Brom if the situation was reversed? I doubt we will ever see that happen for such a small incident as that Liverpool game.

 

Lastly the ref probably wrecked the option of VAR by being so keen to blow his whistle...Would the ref have been so quick to give the foul if the same thing happened at our end?

 

The refs are either cheating or so incompetent it's unreal....in last weeks game...how can the ref not give the foul on Long? How can the miss the blatant back pass?

[ashnats]

Ref's big team bias or sh*te team with very frustrated fans?

 

Ref’s big team bias. HTH

[hasper57saint]

The handball goal for Watford hardly got a mention. If that had been a top side you wouldn’t have head the end of it. Refs frightened to get it wrong for the big clubs so will keep giving... another feature of the prem I’m afraid

I also remember the hand assisted 'goal' by the Spurs forward at Saint Marys. Kevin (not our Friend) against Liverhampton is a classic example of bias too.Two cast iron penalties yet he didn't see them or chose not to.

[Lord Duckhunter]

It might be worth a listen, however if they were sayi it wasn't a foul 9 put of 10 times, isn't that as clear and obvious an error as you can get? Isn't that what the system is for?

 

 

You miss read it, or I didn’t explain myself properly. The 2 referee pundits said that they didn’t think it should be a foul, but 9 times out of 10 a challenge on the keeper like that , results in one.

 

 

 

 

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[5string]

Home to West Ham. Our penalty right at the death was dodgy. Yes it was a foul, but soft as, and if it was given against us there would have been outcry...

So there is one example in our ‘unfair’ bank...

 

Fair observation.

Not sure that counts as 'big team' bias, though.

How many decisions like that do 'small' clubs (like us) get against the 'top 6'? Probably not many.

[benjii]

I would safely say , there have been more decisions go against us! Apart from the Everton game, I cant think think of any times the ref has given a dodgy decision in our favour this season.... but can reel off numerous going against us - & lots in just the last couple of games!!

 

Penalty against West Ham, without which we would be virtually relegated.

[Kingsbridge Saint]

Has it ever been any different though Warsash, even pre PL? Off the top of my head, we had Glenda sparked out in the late 80s at Highbury, not even a free kick given but about 10 minutes injury time in which Arsenal came from 2-0 down and it punctured our great start, plus we lost a key player long term. Jimmy sent off on the halfway line at OT in the Cup when the ref melted like a groupie when Bryan Robson started kicking off. Steve Dunn at OT in 1996 disallowing Shipperley’s goal which shocked even Fergie. Henchoz’s handball volleyball punch at Anfield for the most obvious penalty ever and ignored.

 

I bet plenty of others can remember dozens of other incidents going back to the 60s and 70s and plenty of other clubs too that have been prey to poor decisions by bootlicking referees.

 

Liverpools Centre halves systemically hauling down Danny Wallace on the half way line at WHL in the cup semi-final. All game. free kicks, but nothing further. Carry on lads.

 

The bias is subconscious but it is there in spades. And its getting worse. All clubs outside the big clubs should be in favour of VAR as it will help address the bias.

[Batman]

Liverpools Centre halves systemically hauling down Danny Wallace on the half way line at WHL in the cup semi-final. All game. free kicks, but nothing further. Carry on lads.

 

The bias is subconscious but it is there in spades. And its getting worse. All clubs outside the big clubs should be in favour of VAR as it will help address the bias.

 

Var didn’t help us last weekend

[corky morris]

Ref's big team bias or sh*te team with very frustrated fans?

 

Both!?

[Lets B Avenue]

Nice to see Mike Dean still being punished for his "performance" for Chelsea.

 

Palace v Leicester tomorrow. That will teach him.

[Whitey Grandad]

Nice to see Mike Dean still being punished for his "performance" for Chelsea.

 

Palace v Leicester tomorrow. That will teach him.

 

There was only one mistake in our game. Anything else is fans' Little Team Bias

 

We'd need to see the list of available to decide whether he could have been given worse.

[East Kent Saint]

We just don't appreciate how difficult it is for match officials , it totally depends on what you see . The fans have opposing views depending on their viewing position and how a linesman can accurately note when the ball is kicked as well as if a player is millimeters in front of a defender at the same time god knows.

We still can't agree on a decision after watching it 10 times in slow motion on MotD !

It has always been the case that top clubs, in a period of domination, will always get the benefit of the doubt (ie Liverpool , Man Utd , All Blacks , Australia cricket team ) so yes there is a bias but it is not predetermined plus you have to factor in the human element , ie making up their minds so that is the decision or wanting to make a point to prove they "know the rules" .

I don't know the rules apart from the basics so get steamed up if I think it is a wrong decision ! Money is probably the root cause as usual .

[Charlie Wayman]

We just don't appreciate how difficult it is for match officials , it totally depends on what you see . The fans have opposing views depending on their viewing position and how a linesman can accurately note when the ball is kicked as well as if a player is millimeters in front of a defender at the same time god knows.

We still can't agree on a decision after watching it 10 times in slow motion on MotD !

It has always been the case that top clubs, in a period of domination, will always get the benefit of the doubt (ie Liverpool , Man Utd , All Blacks , Australia cricket team ) so yes there is a bias but it is not predetermined plus you have to factor in the human element , ie making up their minds so that is the decision or wanting to make a point to prove they "know the rules" .

I don't know the rules apart from the basics so get steamed up if I think it is a wrong decision ! Money is probably the root cause as usual .

 

Agree with what you say. Even 'though I watch matches intently during play it is quite easy to miss things happening on the ball let alone all the many off ball incidents as play moves on. Of course it's the ref's job and he's a professional - 'though they don't get paid a lot - and is so much closer to the action so should miss less things than casual observers like fans but some fouls are virtually impossible to see in real time. If a ref isn't certain then he can't give anything, he's not there to guess. Nor can he carry a rule book around in his head.

 

On the other hand, refs get to know players very well so every player must have a certain reputation in a ref's mind such as "fair guy who never fouls" or "serial diver" or "elbow flayer" like Shearer. Sometimes it seems inevitable that reputations can sway a ref's mind as to whether an incident was fair or not.

[Lets B Avenue]

There was only one mistake in our game. Anything else is fans' Little Team Bias

 

We'd need to see the list of available to decide whether he could have been given worse.

 

Only 1??

 

Your constant defence of refs is getting almost "Troll" like. Time to rename you "Whitey Saint".

[Whitey Grandad]

Only 1??

 

Your constant defence of refs is getting almost "Troll" like. Time to rename you "Whitey Saint".

 

Yup, just the one. Were you thinking of something else?

 

Anything else is just a matter of opinion, and if you're a Saints fan then that opinion will be biased. It's no secret that I used to be an active referee (local level) so I know a lot about what goes on behind the scenes as far as managing and appointing refs is concerned.

Edited 27 April, 2018 by Whitey Grandad

[Whitey Grandad]

Agree with what you say. Even 'though I watch matches intently during play it is quite easy to miss things happening on the ball let alone all the many off ball incidents as play moves on. Of course it's the ref's job and he's a professional - 'though they don't get paid a lot - and is so much closer to the action so should miss less things than casual observers like fans but some fouls are virtually impossible to see in real time. If a ref isn't certain then he can't give anything, he's not there to guess. Nor can he carry a rule book around in his head.

 

On the other hand, refs get to know players very well so every player must have a certain reputation in a ref's mind such as "fair guy who never fouls" or "serial diver" or "elbow flayer" like Shearer. Sometimes it seems inevitable that reputations can sway a ref's mind as to whether an incident was fair or not.

 

You might be surprised at what they can earn, up to £100,000. Ever thought of giving it a go?

 

They are paid a retainer of around £40,000 for which the FA expects first call upon their time.

 

https://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-referee-salaries/

[East Kent Saint]

Also watching slow motion goals from behind the goal often shows a touch on the defenders boot or leg or shoulder , so what looks like a fantastic shot to us turns out to be a lucky deflection that wrong foots the goalkeeper rather than the goalkeeper being useless etc.

[East Kent Saint]

Apart from Forster of course.

[warsash saint]

I rest my case !!!

[Turkish]

Make of this what you will

 

[mrfahaji]

Can't blame the refs for Hughes sh1t tactics.

 

I'm not sure winning at Goodison Park would be classed as "sh1t", but there we go.

[Bad Wolf]

By the letter, the referee was probably right to add on the time he did but would he have done the same if they were holding onto the lead? I doubt it.

 

Didn't the referee blow about 2 minutes into 3 added minutes at home to United earlier when they were 1 up and we were pressing?

[warsash saint]

By the letter, the referee was probably right to add on the time he did but would he have done the same if they were holding onto the lead? I doubt it.

 

Didn't the referee blow about 2 minutes into 3 added minutes at home to United earlier when they were 1 up and we were pressing?

 

I think most people admit that the added time was 'just' about right.....it was the Redmond challenge & where the free kick was taken from is where the issue is.

 

The corruption will be exposed one day & we will all realise that the Premiership has been a futile exercise!