Thierry Small

[spyinthesky]

Anyone have an update on the lad?

I guess like many on here I was quite excited about his signing and although he was rather lost on his first team debut last year in the FA Cup v Coventry, he seemed to have a bit of raw talent especially going forward.

Since then he was loaned out to Port Vale and hardly made the squad there and in a recent Stoke Sentinel review of Port Vale players, he was only given a 4/10 rating which is not a great rating for a player in League One.

[S-Clarke]

He's actually back with us now, his loan at Port Vale was terminated. I think he played in the match against Colchester last week.

I guess the results we have so far had from Small highlight the risk of just signing 'talented' young kids. At the time he was rated as one of the most exciting full backs in the country, a left sided Tino I guess, but he has shown to be nowhere near ready - if that's mental I don't know. Signing anyone is a risk but signing kids with potential is an even bigger risk if you're looking for results 'tomorrow'. Some come to the fore straight away, but others can take a fair amount of time to acclimatise to first team football.

We signed kids in the summer like Larios, Edozie, Mara etc - who knows how they will pan out, but they certainly haven't as yet provided us with the results we needed 'today'.

Edited 4 December, 2022 by S-Clarke

[SNSUN]

He's not long turned 18 so he's got a lot of time to mature and improve. We do seem to like stocking up on young left backs thought, we signed Larios (himself only 18) and Jeremi Rodriguez. Weren't we linked with another one recently too? Either way it seems Larios is the one with the brighter immediate future.

[HarvSFC]

5 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

He's not long turned 18 so he's got a lot of time to mature and improve. We do seem to like stocking up on young left backs thought, we signed Larios (himself only 18) and Jeremi Rodriguez. Weren't we linked with another one recently too? Either way it seems Larios is the one with the brighter immediate future.

Meghoma from Spurs joined in the summer too, 16, another one highly rated in the youth system with caps for the England Under 15 and 16s.

[S-Clarke]

15 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

He's not long turned 18 so he's got a lot of time to mature and improve. We do seem to like stocking up on young left backs thought, we signed Larios (himself only 18) and Jeremi Rodriguez. Weren't we linked with another one recently too? Either way it seems Larios is the one with the brighter immediate future.

Oh yeah absolutely, lots of time to mature and he can still turn into a top player - but my complaint is that as a club we can't keep going on this sole path of signing young kids and expecting them to impact the first team straight away, as shown with Small sometimes it takes a little longer. Tino and Lavia and to an extent ABK are more exceptions to the rule in terms of their immediate impact, the majority of young 18/19-year-olds take a little longer to evolve.

[FarehamSaintJames]

I read somewhere that he had a bit of attitude about him.

Although I saw nothing to suggest that having watched him play last season against Coventry - he was just awful and out of his depth on the day. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[East Kent Saint]

25 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

I read somewhere that he had a bit of attitude about him.

Although I saw nothing to suggest that having watched him play last season against Coventry - he was just awful and out of his depth on the day. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I thought the fact he wanted to move clubs because he thought he was being held back was a red flashing light !

[egg]

1 hour ago, East Kent Saint said:

I thought the fact he wanted to move clubs because he thought he was being held back was a red flashing light !

I struggle with that. Players who want to play should be applauded imo. The irony though is that some people (not saying you) thought it was great that he wanted to come here to play, but then consider him cocky cos he wanted to go on loan as he thought he was good enough to play! 

[VectisSaint]

5 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

He's actually back with us now, his loan at Port Vale was terminated. I think he played in the match against Colchester last week.

I guess the results we have so far had from Small highlight the risk of just signing 'talented' young kids. At the time he was rated as one of the most exciting full backs in the country, a left sided Tino I guess, but he has shown to be nowhere near ready - if that's mental I don't know. Signing anyone is a risk but signing kids with potential is an even bigger risk if you're looking for results 'tomorrow'. Some come to the fore straight away, but others can take a fair amount of time to acclimatise to first team football.

We signed kids in the summer like Larios, Edozie, Mara etc - who knows how they will pan out, but they certainly haven't as yet provided us with the results we needed 'today'.

Don't think it was seen as much of a risk at the time we signed him, Everton were well pissed off that we nabbed him, he was seen by many, not just Saints, as a star in the making. But he seems to have lost his way, goodness knows what happened at Vale, played as a makeshift striker when he did play, then played for our B team while still on loan, and finally the loan terminated. Now he's back, appearing sporadically (not in either of the games this weekend). Something seems to have gone seriously wrong, still time to put it right of course. 

[egg]

40 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

Don't think it was seen as much of a risk at the time we signed him, Everton were well pissed off that we nabbed him, he was seen by many, not just Saints, as a star in the making. But he seems to have lost his way, goodness knows what happened at Vale, played as a makeshift striker when he did play, then played for our B team while still on loan, and finally the loan terminated. Now he's back, appearing sporadically (not in either of the games this weekend). Something seems to have gone seriously wrong, still time to put it right of course. 

There were 3 games this weekend, we don't know if he featured in one of them. 

[VectisSaint]

1 hour ago, egg said:

There were 3 games this weekend, we don't know if he featured in one of them. 

True, forgot the Bristol City friendly

[Sheaf Saint]

6 hours ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

I read somewhere that he had a bit of attitude about him.

Where did you read that? I'm told by someone who knows him very well that he might be a little bit cocky but overall is a really great lad who just wants to play and develop.

As has already been said, he's still only just 18. I don't know what's happened with his loan at PV but he's got a lot of talent and I'm certain there is much more to come from him.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

I missed the first half of the Coventry game. But do remember a couple of posts saying that although a bit of a torrid time, it did get better. Watched him in the preseasons. Raw, probably overly keen to do well, but no reason why it can't happen. We've a lot of players for that spot, that could blunt his pathway here. Hopefully a good loan move in the second half of the season, will give him lots of minutes, take off a few of the edges and settle him in on his return.

[Saint86]

15 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

I missed the first half of the Coventry game. But do remember a couple of posts saying that although a bit of a torrid time, it did get better. Watched him in the preseasons. Raw, probably overly keen to do well, but no reason why it can't happen. We've a lot of players for that spot, that could blunt his pathway here. Hopefully a good loan move in the second half of the season, will give him lots of minutes, take off a few of the edges and settle him in on his return.

That was my take on the game. At the start he was a bit of a deer in the headlights, but he grew into it and showed there is something there. Seems crazy for people to be bludgeoning such a young kid over that particularly debut appearance. And its bizarre if there were people thinking we were signing a £1.5M youngster with no first team minutes to be a first team left back in the premier league. He may be having a tough year given his PV loan, but he's got many more years to reach the required level for saints.

I also thought his interviews etc showed him to be a keen player, nice lad, and perhaps a bit cocky - but that is true of a great many teenage boys and something that usually changes as they get older.

 

[M271]

He’s going on the Spain training camp this week.

[Tommy]

If he ever becomes a premier league regular id be shocked

[JRM]

8 hours ago, Tommy said:

If he ever becomes a premier league regular id be shocked

I watched him closely in a B team game, my opinion is he's too big to be a left back, he might develop into a better player elsewhere on the pitch and is a strong lad but didn't offer much creativity and got beaten for pace a few times. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, JRM said:

I watched him closely in a B team game, my opinion is he's too big to be a left back, he might develop into a better player elsewhere on the pitch and is a strong lad but didn't offer much creativity and got beaten for pace a few times. 

I get that. The issue for the lad, I think, is that he doesn't seem to have to pace or creativity to play LB, isn't tall enough to be a CB, and doesn't look like he's a midfielder. I can see why Port Vale pushed him up front, but it's hard to see where he'll end up playing.

[david in sweden]

On 04/12/2022 at 12:59, S-Clarke said:

Oh yeah absolutely, lots of time to mature and he can still turn into a top player - but my complaint is that as a club we can't keep going on this sole path of signing young kids and expecting them to impact the first team straight away, as shown with Small sometimes it takes a little longer. Tino and Lavia and to an extent ABK are more exceptions to the rule in terms of their immediate impact, the majority of young 18/19-year-olds take a little longer to evolve.

Agree totally Clarkey.  There are some very talented teenagers in our present Academy group, and we have 16 and 17 year olds starring in the B team

every game and coming up against opposing U23 sides with Prem. players in their line-ups. The real problem comes when our young starlets are expected  

to show up in first team games and repeat the  " Shearer-type syndrome " (of scoring a hat-trick on a home debut) which might come once every generation.

(It should be noted that it took Shearer another season before he even got any match starts  - let alone scoring goals with any regularity). 

 

The difference between U18 / B team football ...and the Prem. games... is a lot more than just moving up the corridor to " the big boys"  dressing room.

It's like giving a hill-climber a place on an Everest expedition, the challenge maybe great but the level of endurance required can be " career-threatening " 

We saw enthusiastic starts from Livramento and Broja last season, but it lasted only until their first injury setback, as the physical pace and stress required

in the Prem. game soon took its toll,  and we can only hope that Tino can find his form again PDQ, otherwise he will become just another regular on the bench.

 

We must continue to support and encourage our young talents, but perhaps it's still  - a bit early for Thierry Small - if indeed his time will ever come.? 

 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

19 minutes ago, egg said:

I get that. The issue for the lad, I think, is that he doesn't seem to have to pace or creativity to play LB, isn't tall enough to be a CB, and doesn't look like he's a midfielder. I can see why Port Vale pushed him up front, but it's hard to see where he'll end up playing.

I agree, I just can't work out what position he will play. His physique is all wrong for full back. I do think he is quite skillful though. I can see him playing as a bulky wing forward like Mbappe(!) or Aboubakar Kamara, but more at the level of the latter

[egg]

1 minute ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

I agree, I just can't work out what position he will play. His physique is all wrong for full back. I do think he is quite skillful though. I can see him playing as a bulky wing forward like Mbappe(!) or Aboubakar Kamara, but more at the level of the latter

He needs work for sure, but it's hard to coach an eye for goal and the different decision making needed up front. He's got time in his side and I hope, for his sake as much as ours, that he's not the next Jake Vokins. 

[manina-pub]

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/24092256.former-everton-starlet-small-mutually-terminates-southampton-contract/

[Saint_clark]

Bizarre. There was definitely talent there. 

[Chez]

38 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Bizarre. There was definitely talent there. 

Not the first time a player looks strong at youth level, but doesn't make the leap. His physical attributes at 16 gave him an advantage against others of the same age, but at senior level that disappears and then it's down to actual ability.  When you can't overpower and outpace opponents like you did before, you game has to change. He's probably spent years bombing forward and looking good going forward. When asked to truely play left back, maybe he just hasn't mastered the position. 

I'm just guessing here. I have seen one half of football, in which he looked like a CB type (strong but slow) playing at left back. 

For years I've wanted us to spend big on youth and despite relegation I still like the policy we have, so for us to spend big on him and it to fail, is a real disappointment. A club our size can't keep forking out millions if one or two don't make iot into the first team. I guess some you win (Livramento) and some you lose. Let's hope the likes of SAA and Meghoma add to the win column.  

[revolution saint]

This is why I can't ever get too worked up when we lose a youth player (or sign a really young youth prospect).  The percentage that go on to be decent is so low that chances are it won't make the slightest bit of difference.

Bit different with the ones signed around the 18 year old mark but anything younger than that and it's more likely that they'll never play more than a few first team games for us (if any). 

[Saint Scott]

Signed for Charlton. Poor lad, having Nathan as a manager twice in a lifetime.

https://www.charltonafc.com/news/thierry-small-joins-charlton

[S-Clarke]

Didn't seem to have the right attitude to me. Signed at the same time as Tino, with similar glowing reports.

Tino took his chance and had the right mentality, but Small just seems to be lacking. He is probably talented, but that's only half the story - you need more than that.

Interesting to see how he does in the lower leagues, as he absolutely failed in the SPL.

[SaintNewForest]

The fact that he's now torn has contract up at both Everton & Saints, whilst not making inroads to a Premier league first team as he expected and then failing out on his lower league loans ... either he doesn't have the ability his ego thinks he does, or he has the talent but not the application. 

Strange career already and only 19.

[Tommy Mulgrew]

Agree SNF.

Small is a big lad; perhaps the Welsh madman will play him as a CF seeing as Tall Paul is presently unavailable, plying his trade at Afcon and Turkey.  We seem to have quite a presence at Charlton these days.

[Saint_clark]

8 hours ago, Chez said:

Not the first time a player looks strong at youth level, but doesn't make the leap. His physical attributes at 16 gave him an advantage against others of the same age, but at senior level that disappears and then it's down to actual ability.  When you can't overpower and outpace opponents like you did before, you game has to change. He's probably spent years bombing forward and looking good going forward. When asked to truely play left back, maybe he just hasn't mastered the position. 

I'm just guessing here. I have seen one half of football, in which he looked like a CB type (strong but slow) playing at left back. 

For years I've wanted us to spend big on youth and despite relegation I still like the policy we have, so for us to spend big on him and it to fail, is a real disappointment. A club our size can't keep forking out millions if one or two don't make iot into the first team. I guess some you win (Livramento) and some you lose. Let's hope the likes of SAA and Meghoma add to the win column.  

No, but it is rare for a youth player to transfer between Premier League clubs and then make zero impact whatsoever. Doesn't exactly speak well of our scouting/youth department.

[SuperSAINT]

3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

No, but it is rare for a youth player to transfer between Premier League clubs and then make zero impact whatsoever. Doesn't exactly speak well of our scouting/youth department.

Well just about everybody involved has left if it's of any consolation.

[Baird of the land]

9 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Bizarre. There was definitely talent there. 

The one appearance I saw it seemed he had no understanding of defensive positioning

[ally_uk]

Meh was obviously not good enough we more onwards.. 

[Miltonaggro]

Just jumped aboard the Natty J express at Charlton, his first signing. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

I hope both he and Ramsay do well for Charlton. It's good for our club to show that players who may not work out with us, for whatever reason, can still play at such a level, and may even progress from there.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

On 02/02/2024 at 22:18, Baird of the land said:

The one appearance I saw it seemed he had no understanding of defensive positioning

I'm still convinced full back is not the right position for him

[SuperSAINT]

8 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

I'm still convinced full back is not the right position for him

I’d say wing-back with experience on the left side of central defence to help him

[IFHP]

Not sure why some think he’s ok .
 

Not shone when been in loan at clubs at a lower  standard then Charlton . 

Some signings work out some don’t , this one didn’t . 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Raw. Very keen to get forward. As front footed as an aggressive, front footed manager could hope for. I think he got a red in a key game for St Mirren. Fans not that surprised. But they didn't mind him there, at least when I asked. I think they quite liked the left back they had too though, that may explain some of the lack of games. I don't know how it turned out in the end.

He clearly backs himself. Which I don't mind as an alternative to 23 year olds kicking around with a game or two on their CVS. If he can find a level to play and learn with the minutes, he should improve.

[Turkish]

13 hours ago, Miltonaggro said:

Just jumped aboard the Natty J express at Charlton, his first signing. 

If statistically the best manager in European can’t get him to cook no one can 

[Turkish]

13 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

I hope both he and Ramsay do well for Charlton. It's good for our club to show that players who may not work out with us, for whatever reason, can still play at such a level, and may even progress from there.

Harrogate town fans loved Ramsay it was clear once he’d settled he was way better than league two level. Wouldn’t be surprised to see him in the championship sooner rather than later

[SNSUN]

17 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

I'm still convinced full back is not the right position for him

If you remember Lee Molyneux we signed from Everton in the dark days, another "promising" left back that didn't make it - he carved out a decent career in the lower leagues by playing left wing, so perhaps a change of position (or just good coaching) could work for him. 

Small will be one of those players that in FM2035 we can't believe is still around and he'll only be 30. I'll be in my mid-60's if he goes on to play until he's 40. 😵

[Holmes_and_Watson]

52 minutes ago, SNSUN said:

I'll be in my mid-60's if he goes on to play until he's 40. 😵

... and possibly still have better defensive positioning. 🙂