Saints 2-2 Leeds - Match Thread

[Kings Chase Saint]

13 hours ago, Nemi said:

The 4222 seems to work best but we still have to play at such high intensity to make it work. 
 

That’s why we always start so well and then drop so many points because we never seem to be able to key it up for the full 90. 

Today was the inverse of our usual trend. Started with a more defensive formation playing less energy before rescuing a point with a high intensity period at the end. 
 

Question is whether or not this season we’ll be able to do a whole match with the energy level required for 4222 and hold onto the points by the end.

 

With 5 subs this year, break for world cup and new energy with Baz, ABK, Lavia, Aribo & Mara I can see the intense press working better this year and they shouldn't flag in the 2nd half of the season as they have done in recent years.  For me individually we are much better than last year but it's not translating into improved overall performances yet.  Baz & ABK improve defence, Lavia gives us a much needed extra option in mid-field and looks really good.  Aribo gives us an extra attacking midfielder and is clearly class.  Mara is showing good signs after such a short time.  Get a system they can all feel comfortable with.  I think if you do away with 3 central defenders we need Lavia, JWP & Romeo in midfield together.  

I think with these players 4-3-3 works best as even last season we were getting over-run in midfield.  I would go with.

                                                                                                                  BAZUNU

 

                        KWP                        ---                  ABK                          ---                     SALISU                     ---                  PERRAUD

 

                                                         JWP                   ---                            LAVIA             ---                    ROMEO            

 

                      ARIBO                             ---                                                  MARA                                        ---                       ARMSTRONG S                                                               

 

 

Edited 14 August, 2022 by Kings Chase Saint

[Mikey88]

I think yesterday just confirms how important Che Adams is to us. Didn’t score but was involved in both goals, battles, harries and ultimately improves the performance of others around him. Mad if we are considering selling him as things currently stand.

[AlexLaw76]

41 minutes ago, Kings Chase Saint said:

With 5 subs this year, break for world cup and new energy with Baz, ABK, Lavia, Aribo & Mara I can see the intense press working better this year and they shouldn't flag in the 2nd half of the season as they have done in recent years.  For me individually we are much better than last year but it's not translating into improved overall performances yet.  Baz & ABK improve defence, Lavia gives us a much needed extra option in mid-field and looks really good.  Aribo gives us an extra attacking midfielder and is clearly class.  Mara is showing good signs after such a short time.  Get a system they can all feel comfortable with.  I think if you do away with 3 central defenders we need Lavia, JWP & Romeo in midfield together.  

I think with these players 4-3-3 works best as even last season we were getting over-run in midfield.  I would go with.

                                                                                                                  BAZUNU

 

                        KWP                        ---                  ABK                          ---                     SALISU                     ---                  PERRAUD

 

                                                         JWP                   ---                            LAVIA             ---                    ROMEO            

 

                      ARIBO                             ---                                                  MARA                                        ---                       ARMSTRONG S                                                               

 

 

MLG is going to have something to say about this....

 

[Warriorsaint]

24 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

MLG is going to have something to say about this....

 

Thanks for the post, illuminating, that someone else will post an opinion.

Edited 14 August, 2022 by Warriorsaint

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Warriorsaint said:

Thanks for the post, illuminating, that someone else will post an opinion.

are you ALWAYS like this?

[Smirking_Saint]

1 hour ago, Kings Chase Saint said:

With 5 subs this year, break for world cup and new energy with Baz, ABK, Lavia, Aribo & Mara I can see the intense press working better this year and they shouldn't flag in the 2nd half of the season as they have done in recent years.  For me individually we are much better than last year but it's not translating into improved overall performances yet.  Baz & ABK improve defence, Lavia gives us a much needed extra option in mid-field and looks really good.  Aribo gives us an extra attacking midfielder and is clearly class.  Mara is showing good signs after such a short time.  Get a system they can all feel comfortable with.  I think if you do away with 3 central defenders we need Lavia, JWP & Romeo in midfield together.  

I think with these players 4-3-3 works best as even last season we were getting over-run in midfield.  I would go with.

                                                                                                                  BAZUNU

 

                        KWP                        ---                  ABK                          ---                     SALISU                     ---                  PERRAUD

 

                                                         JWP                   ---                            LAVIA             ---                    ROMEO            

 

                      ARIBO                             ---                                                  MARA                                        ---                       ARMSTRONG S                                                               

 

 

4222 works best, thats how we have played our best football and even showed yesterday that we were at our most dangerous in that tactical set up.

We played 3 in the middle in our 352 games, and we were still being over run, more players in a certain position doesn't necessarily mean more confidence in that area, we had 3 CBs and 3 CMs in our first 160 odd minutes of the season and looked structurally awful

Go back to the 4222, play our best eleven, accept that ROMEU might be dropped, or Lavia might be dropped and go from there..... Im not convinced Mara is an out and out striker either, Che was a handful yesterday, I'd like to see him continue there 

[FarehamSaintJames]

Did I read somewhere that Bednarek had a little strop after being subbed off? 🤣

[Smirking_Saint]

1 minute ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

Did I read somewhere that Bednarek had a little strop after being subbed off? 🤣

In fairness to him I think 3 atb makes all our CBs look terrible

He isn’t as bad as the hate he gets

[saintadjg]

8 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

In fairness to him I think 3 atb makes all our CBs look terrible

He isn’t as bad as the hate he gets

He is. And yes it did look like he threw his toys out the the pram/spat his dummy etc. Possibly the indignation of being subbed off in favour of a 20yr old newbie.

[Smirking_Saint]

1 minute ago, saintadjg said:

He is. And yes it did look like he threw his toys out the the pram/spat his dummy etc. Possibly the indignation of being subbed off in favour of a 20yr old newbie.

It could also be that he is moaning about playing 532 when it clearly isn't working, we just don't know

But no, he really isn't as bad as we make out, play with any form of structure and he looks fine... worth noting that absolutely none of our defensive players, bar maybe Lavia, came out of the 532/352 experiment with any merit whatsoever

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

It could also be that he is moaning about playing 532 when it clearly isn't working, we just don't know

But no, he really isn't as bad as we make out, play with any form of structure and he looks fine... worth noting that absolutely none of our defensive players, bar maybe Lavia, came out of the 532/352 experiment with any merit whatsoever

What I'd say with Bednarek is that his errors aren't always born out of the system or shape we play, he has terrible positional sense and his lack of ability to read or sense danger kills us. But there is also the added issue in that we play an active way, in either 5 or 4 at the back. This will lead to situations whereby the centre backs are exposed and his attributes mean that he'll never, ever be suited to that which is why he tries to commit early and then falls flat on his arse.

If we play a 4 or a 3, you will often see Bednarek done by an attacker who is a yard ahead of him in mind. I think we will automatically look a lot better with ABK and Salisu in a pair. If we can get some money for Bednarek then we should snap whoever's hand off.

Edited 14 August, 2022 by S-Clarke

[FarehamSaintJames]

Bednarek's errors more often than not are through his own poor sense and lack of awareness.
How many times in the past eyar have we seen on match threads "FFS Bednarek"? It's got to be up there with "McCarthy beaten at his near post, AGAIN".

He is one constant of the past few years, and at some point you have to just turn around and go do you know what, he isn't good enough. 

Anyone that offers a five for him I would take very quickly. I also don't like his attitude. His constant flailing of the arms and sulk when something doesn't go his way. He's quick to have a moan about others around him if things go south, even when it's mainly him that's brought it on himself.

[Smirking_Saint]

I don't think he is good enough, but he isn't anywhere near as bad as is being made out, he is a third best CB now behind ABK and Salisu (If ABK continues to show what he showed yesterday)

His issues are highlighted by our tactical ineptitude at times, for instance he looked good in that first stage of the season last year and in long stretches of previous seasons, only being shown up when we started to be stretched and there was a lack of defensive cover (late season last year) and now again in whatever system Ralph has been trying to play

He is much more of a proactive defender than the likes of Stephens, Valery and Lyanco... which is why he is one of our more saleable assets.. can we improve on him ? Certainly... Does he deserve the grief he gets ? Absolutely not

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

I don't think he is good enough, but he isn't anywhere near as bad as is being made out, he is a third best CB now behind ABK and Salisu (If ABK continues to show what he showed yesterday)

His issues are highlighted by our tactical ineptitude at times, for instance he looked good in that first stage of the season last year and in long stretches of previous seasons, only being shown up when we started to be stretched and there was a lack of defensive cover (late season last year) and now again in whatever system Ralph has been trying to play

He is much more of a proactive defender than the likes of Stephens, Valery and Lyanco... which is why he is one of our more saleable assets.. can we improve on him ? Certainly... Does he deserve the grief he gets ? Absolutely not

When he refuses to play for us in an FA Cup game because his priority is Poland, then yes, I'd say he does deserve a lot of the grief he gets.

Surprised he's still here after that incident.

[Smirking_Saint]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

When he refuses to play for us in an FA Cup game because his priority is Poland, then yes, I'd say he does deserve a lot of the grief he gets.

Surprised he's still here after that incident.

That I can agree on tbf

[FarehamSaintJames]

The way of looking at it is if you were a striker and going up against some of the CB’s in this league you’d be thinking “hmmm difficult”.

I’d look at Bednarek, Valery, probably even Stephens and thinking “yeah I could have them”.

You get defenders that lack ability but will grasp the game and put up a fight. When he doesn’t even do those things he’s a lost cause now. He shouldn’t be given a starting place just because he is tall. He most certainly hasn’t got the ability to develop anymore, so what does he bring to the team?

🤷🏻‍♂️

[AlexLaw76]

7 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

When he refuses to play for us in an FA Cup game because his priority is Poland, then yes, I'd say he does deserve a lot of the grief he gets.

Surprised he's still here after that incident.

Good point.  He seems to have got away with that (directly)

Lets be straight, he is very average at best and we should sell him if there is a suitor.

[Østerrike]

20 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Its good for the quads if you do them property.

wow, touche, impressive, guess you have never done a typo ..

[The Cat]

4 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

It could also be that he is moaning about playing 532 when it clearly isn't working, we just don't know

But no, he really isn't as bad as we make out, play with any form of structure and he looks fine... worth noting that absolutely none of our defensive players, bar maybe Lavia, came out of the 532/352 experiment with any merit whatsoever

After the second goal there was a long postmortem amongst the defenders on the pitch, none of whom seemed happy with each other.

Bednarek was particularly vocal and was also complaining about something to the ref before we kicked off again.

Personally I don't have an issue with people being upset when they are subbed. It shows passion and that they care. He could have been upset with being subbed, or upset by his own performance.

[SaintsLoyal]

ANyone know the attendance yesterday ? seems hard to find these days in any match reports.

[InvictaSaint]

29 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

What I'd say with Bednarek is that his errors aren't always born out of the system or shape we play, he has terrible positional sense and his lack of ability to read or sense danger kills us. But there is also the added issue in that we play an active way, in either 5 or 4 at the back. This will lead to situations whereby the centre backs are exposed and his attributes mean that he'll never, ever be suited to that which is why he tries to commit early and then falls flat on his arse.

If we play a 4 or a 3, you will often see Bednarek done by an attacker who is a yard ahead of him in mind. I think we will automatically look a lot better with ABK and Salisu in a pair. If we can get some money for Bednarek then we should snap whoever's hand off.

100% this. Watch the first Leeds goal again - it’s Bednarek’s trademark: Rodrigo is moving into the area in front of JB who is utterly unaware of what’s going on around him, is static and who by the time he realises what’s going on it’s too late. He does it time and time again. This is not an isolated instance. If we are going to improve, he needs to be on the bench at best. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, InvictaSaint said:

100% this. Watch the first Leeds goal again - it’s Bednarek’s trademark: Rodrigo is moving into the area in front of JB who is utterly unaware of what’s going on around him, is static and who by the time he realises what’s going on it’s too late. He does it time and time again. This is not an isolated instance. If we are going to improve, he needs to be on the bench at best. 

It happened in the first half when Bamford strolled in front of him at the near post

[InvictaSaint]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

It happened in the first half when Bamford strolled in front of him at the near post

Indeed it did - almost a carbon copy of the first goal. And this is the issue - he doesn’t learn and he doesn’t - or can’t - improve. 

[skintsaint]

13 minutes ago, Østerrike said:

guess you have never done a typo ..

Plenty, still remember the fist time I done it.

[saintwbu]

Bednarek has always been a sliding, last ditch defender. Can sometimes look good on a highlight reel but often the sign of a defender who cannot read the game well. He also doesn’t have the physical attributes to counter it. Salisu is not the best reader of danger i don’t think, but physically he’s imposing and has a great stretch. ABK seemed to anticipate really well yesterday, as well as be physically imposing. It would be a huge disappointment for me if Bednarek was here after the window closes - I would genuinely pick every other CB at the club over him.

[InvictaSaint]

On an unrelated note….did anybody else in the Chapel see the former players’ names that have been added to the steps into the bowl? The name Mings (definitely Mings and not Ings) is on there - I checked today and he was an academy player at Saints in 2008 who never played a first team game for us. So why is he in there….?! 🤔

[Dman]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

are you ALWAYS like this?

Only after sitting in the CHAPLE END…

[Kermitzasaint]

6 hours ago, Adman said:

So the 4222 is only Ralph’s when we lose? Not when it works?

So in your opinion Ralph told the team to play painfully slow and turgid football for 70 minutes and then switch it on for the last 20 minutes once we were 2 nil down and the fans demoralised? 

[Chez]

What was the general consensus on Djenepo?  I've been keen for us to sign another left back as I don't rate Perraud all that highly and feel we need two decent players at that position instead of relying on KWP to cover both. Did he look good both in a 5 and a 4?

[Appy]

5 minutes ago, Chez said:

What was the general consensus on Djenepo?  I've been keen for us to sign another left back as I don't rate Perraud all that highly and feel we need two decent players at that position instead of relying on KWP to cover both. Did he look good both in a 5 and a 4?

Defensively a liability, we need another full back, had glimpses going forward but against decent sides he’ll be torn apart and exposed. 

[saintwbu]

7 minutes ago, Chez said:

What was the general consensus on Djenepo?  I've been keen for us to sign another left back as I don't rate Perraud all that highly and feel we need two decent players at that position instead of relying on KWP to cover both. Did he look good both in a 5 and a 4?

He had good moments in the first half, but in the second half he was great. Beat their full back repeatedly and got decent crosses into the box, worked his absolute bollocks off all game. Defended pretty well albeit they didn’t go down his side as much in the second half as you might’ve expected. Had to be subbed due to being dead on his feet at the end. He was probably our MOTM really.

Edited 14 August, 2022 by saintwbu

[Adman]

33 minutes ago, Kermitzasaint said:

So in your opinion Ralph told the team to play painfully slow and turgid football for 70 minutes and then switch it on for the last 20 minutes once we were 2 nil down and the fans demoralised? 

No. Merely the change in formation suited us better and that change still counts as his tactics

[VectisSaint]

1 hour ago, InvictaSaint said:

On an unrelated note….did anybody else in the Chapel see the former players’ names that have been added to the steps into the bowl? The name Mings (definitely Mings and not Ings) is on there - I checked today and he was an academy player at Saints in 2008 who never played a first team game for us. So why is he in there….?! 🤔

Sort of depends who else is there, otherwise you've really answered your own question. He was an Academy product (he was at the Bath Satellite initially, like Bale) and spent 8 years with the Club. Hails from nearby (to me) Chippenham, and his Dad, Ade was on the coaching staff for a while. Rupert Lowe and his buget axe were responsible for Mings being released, and he went about getting back into football the hard way, initially at Millfield School and then through non-league Yate and Chippenham before being picked up by Ipswich. He's actually a really level headed, down to earth guy, despite what Souness might have you believe, and well liked among his contempories around here. I think that Lowe probably finished Mings with Southampton, left a bitter taste. 

[Convict Colony]

b

Edited 14 August, 2022 by Convict Colony

[S-Clarke]

41 minutes ago, Chez said:

What was the general consensus on Djenepo?  I've been keen for us to sign another left back as I don't rate Perraud all that highly and feel we need two decent players at that position instead of relying on KWP to cover both. Did he look good both in a 5 and a 4?

He was decent in an attacking sense in the second half, but if we are up against quality and he has to defend then we are in big trouble. Kuvuleski ripped him to pieces at Spurs, and teams will naturally target him as an obvious weak link.

I really don't think we should be persevering with him as a defender in all truth.

[trousers]

Apologies if already mentioned, and a bit of a minor / tangential observation, but my son pointed out at the game yesterday that our keeper was wearing last season's keeper kit rather than this season's new one. Anyone know why?

[Jw03]

Che Adams absolutely useless 

[alehouseboys]

8 minutes ago, Jw03 said:

Che Adams absolutely useless 

Great first post...

 

[Sheaf Saint]

8 minutes ago, Jw03 said:

Che Adams absolutely useless 

Yeah totally. I mean, apart from being involved in both our goals, he didn't do anything of note. Rubbish.

[AlexLaw76]

17 minutes ago, Jw03 said:

Che Adams absolutely useless 

[Paul.Studio]

My first game for awhile in the Kingsland (cheaper seats!) 

Negatives - Djenepo is a liability defending and shouldn't be used there (will get overrun against Utd and Chelski) Bednarek - time to move on, Adams - huffs and puffs but OK did have a hand in the goals but no efforts on goal in the first 60-70 minutes!  Midfield - no names but we never seem to win the 2nd or loose ball and our players get bumped off the ball very easily.

Positives - Bazunu - should play every game even against Cambridge - hope he stays long enough to be a legend! Bella-Kotchap - looks a decent footballer - its getting the rest of the defence sorted to play with him. Aribo - should start every game - always positive and plays for the shirt.

As always KWP and JWP with good games (although JWP isnt quite on it yet). Mara a nice cameo.  Adam Armstrong did well but dont think he is the answer!

Need a striker like Broja or equivalent along with full back cover (especially left hand side) and we will be fine!

 

[Smirking_Saint]

2 hours ago, Chez said:

What was the general consensus on Djenepo?  I've been keen for us to sign another left back as I don't rate Perraud all that highly and feel we need two decent players at that position instead of relying on KWP to cover both. Did he look good both in a 5 and a 4?

Was terrible against Spurs, was better yesterday, a decided average defensive player at best... but he is definitely better going forward this year.

I don't rate him, I think overall we need better cover, but credit where credit is due he has been ok and if we have to deploy him against Leicester then I'm not going to lose too much sleep

[Smirking_Saint]

58 minutes ago, Jw03 said:

Che Adams absolutely useless 

Apart from being a constant nuisance, and having involvement in both goals you are spot on.........

[ErwinK1961]

1 hour ago, Jw03 said:

Che Adams absolutely useless 

Ok Ralph.

[Baird of the land]

1 hour ago, Paul.Studio said:

Adams - huffs and puffs but OK did have a hand in the goals but no efforts on goal in the first 60-70 minutes!

 

I’d argue the reason he did nothing much for 70 minutes was largely to do with the extremely negative formation.

[manji]

https://theathletic.com/3504096/2022/08/14/water-break-southampton-hasenhuttl/?source=user_shared_article
 

[Piran]

I saw much of the match on a dodgy stream, plus the MOTD highlights. As mentioned before, I don't do in-match threads on here - far too depressing that there are so many experts out there, who are unfortunately out of work and yet to be snapped up by Premier League teams.

I won't get involved in the "He is a genius who turned things round / It was his fault we were losing" debate - nobody changes their mind, they just look for confirmation of their biases - but it has rarely been mentioned that the game has changed with the introduction of the 5 subs, and all managers now have to plan for a team of 16 players and 95+ minutes play, and the starting 11 and formations are only starting points.

And did the backroom team have an influence on Hassenhuttl? I bloody hope so! Or what are they there for?

[manji]

Just now, manji said:

https://theathletic.com/3504096/2022/08/14/water-break-southampton-hasenhuttl/?source=user_shared_article
 

Loads of positives there. Support staff getting involved. Bednarek didn’t have a strop as such just frustrated, sounds like he gave a shit to me and I liked Adama listening to instructions and rushing to get into position.

[SaintTex]

5 hours ago, Chez said:

What was the general consensus on Djenepo?  I've been keen for us to sign another left back as I don't rate Perraud all that highly and feel we need two decent players at that position instead of relying on KWP to cover both. Did he look good both in a 5 and a 4?

funny.. i rate Perraud quite a bit. Well, in the sense, I think he is the best we could hope for at LB if we are limited to spending 12m for any one player.

he was in quite a bit of good form in the middle of last season when the team itself was also doing quite well.

Edited 14 August, 2022 by SaintTex

[the colonel]

I'm sure it has been discussed above somewhere, should it have been a sending off? MotD mentioned it during highlights but ignored in the after chat.