Gavin Bazunu

[Whitey Grandad]

7 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Still the 2nd worst overall in the league. Definitely improving though, hope it continues. Be interesting to see how he does when he has some shots that aren't directly at him, whether his shot stopping has improved as well. 

We've talked about this before. This is exactly why any supposed statistics are meaningless crap.

[Saint_clark]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

We've talked about this before. This is exactly why any supposed statistics are meaningless crap.

Averaged out over multiple games and especially the course of a season they're not. 

[West end Saints]

He had more successful passes yesterday than any Millwall player! 

His passing and confidence receiving the ball is vital for our style of play. 

(I appreciate saves important too!) 

[Whitey Grandad]

4 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Averaged out over multiple games and especially the course of a season they're not. 

Not a big enough sample. Have you done a Chi squared test on this?

[Saint_clark]

7 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Not a big enough sample. Have you done a Chi squared test on this?

Jesus, do you want to wait until the end of his career and then discuss it?

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

Jesus, do you want to wait until the end of his career and then discuss it?

That might give you a more accurate figure of what you think you're looking for but after only 15 games?

What variance would you expect from any figures that you care to concoct?

As has been said before, there are just too many variables. That's why these football so-called stats are used for betting. 

[SaintsBarry74]

On 06/11/2023 at 08:02, Whitey Grandad said:

That might give you a more accurate figure of what you think you're looking for but after only 15 games?

What variance would you expect from any figures that you care to concoct?

As has been said before, there are just too many variables. That's why these football so-called stats are used for betting. 

He was the worst keeper in the league last season as far as shot stopping goes, and thus far still the worst keeper in the league having let in 6.1 more goals than expected against inferior opposition. When will the statistical evidence be substantial enough for you to acknowledge his consistent underperformance?

[Whitey Grandad]

13 minutes ago, SaintsBarry74 said:

He was the worst keeper in the league last season as far as shot stopping goes, and thus far still the worst keeper in the league having let in 6.1 more goals than expected against inferior opposition. When will the statistical evidence be substantial enough for you to acknowledge his consistent underperformance?

Because these are not real statistics. They are a load of invented bollocks.

When will you ever recognise this?

[Saint_clark]

On 07/11/2023 at 22:11, Whitey Grandad said:

Because these are not real statistics. They are a load of invented bollocks.

When will you ever recognise this?

Which stats do you consider to be "real" out of interest? They're literally a factual representation of what has happened. 

[Lighthouse]

On 07/11/2023 at 21:56, SaintsBarry74 said:

He was the worst keeper in the league last season as far as shot stopping goes, and thus far still the worst keeper in the league having let in 6.1 more goals than expected against inferior opposition. When will the statistical evidence be substantial enough for you to acknowledge his consistent underperformance?

Which 6.1 goals were they, exactly?

[Galway saint]

as a distraction from the statistical debate, who thinks Baz would have kept out the shot from sulemana that bialkowski saved low down to his left ? 

i think if baz is in goal for milwall we take the lead there 

 

 

[Saint_clark]

6 hours ago, Galway saint said:

as a distraction from the statistical debate, who thinks Baz would have kept out the shot from sulemana that bialkowski saved low down to his left ? 

i think if baz is in goal for milwall we take the lead there 

 

 

Nah, he would have saved that. More power on it and maybe not. 

[notnowcato]

7 hours ago, Galway saint said:

as a distraction from the statistical debate, who thinks Baz would have kept out the shot from sulemana that bialkowski saved low down to his left ? 

i think if baz is in goal for milwall we take the lead there 

 

 

I think Baz saves the Fraser goal. 

[The Cat]

8 hours ago, Galway saint said:

as a distraction from the statistical debate, who thinks Baz would have kept out the shot from sulemana that bialkowski saved low down to his left ? 

i think if baz is in goal for milwall we take the lead there 

 

 

If he had made the same save he'd have no doubt got a load of shit for pushing the ball back into the middle and being lucky that one of their players wasn't stood there for a tap in.

If he'd done what Martinez did the other day this board would have exploded.

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 hours ago, The Cat said:

 

If he'd done what Martinez did the other day this board would have exploded.

If Baz had won the World Cup, the Yashin Trophy & the World Cup golden gloves, I think we may have cut him a bit of slack over a rare mistake. 

Similarly had Martinez been rock bottom of the league in terms of saves, let most shots from distance in & was so poor last season that Alex McCarthy was considered a better option, then the Villa supporters may well have “exploded” as well. Not that it would have happened of course, most clubs would have binned him by now. 

Edited 9 November, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[The Cat]

19 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

If Baz had won the World Cup, the Yashin Trophy & the World Cup golden gloves, I think we may have cut him a bit of slack over a rare mistake. 

Similarly had Martinez been rock bottom of the league in terms of saves, let most shots from distance in & was so poor last season that Alex McCarthy was considered a better option, then the Villa supporters may well have “exploded” as well. Not that it would have happened of course, most clubs would have binned him by now. 

Bazunu is 21, even a once in a generation freak like Donnarumma didn't win those achievements at such a young age for a keeper.

When Martinez was 21 he was playing one game in a season for Oxford. Pretty sure back then no one was touting him to win all the awards you mentioned.

Personally I'm glad we haven't binned Bazunu. I like watching young players grow into a team and improve. Similarly Leeds haven't binned Meslier who has had a very similar start to his career as Bazunu and has been their number 1 for 4 seasons now.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, The Cat said:

Similarly Leeds haven't binned Meslier who has had a very similar start to his career as Bazunu and has been their number 1 for 4 seasons now.

Is the moral of this tale; "play young, inexperienced 'keeper and get relegated"?

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Is the moral of this tale; "play young, inexperienced 'keeper and get relegated"?

There is a very similar, almost identical dynamic happening at Burnley this year. They spent a similar fee on James Trafford from City, only lower league experience. The general tone from their fans is that they want him replaced by their keeper from last year, he's too inexperienced, too rash etc. There are no glaring errors as such, similar to Bazunu, but lots of goals they say he 'should save'.

I guess all goalkeepers need a start, but it does feel as if these City kids are getting thrown into the lions den a bit too quickly before they're fully matured (Gunn is another one). I reckon they'll all have decent careers for themselves, as Gunn is now demonstrating at Norwich (before he was injured). It's just the clubs having to deal with their growing pains.

[CanadaSaint]

17 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

There is a very similar, almost identical dynamic happening at Burnley this year. They spent a similar fee on James Trafford from City, only lower league experience. The general tone from their fans is that they want him replaced by their keeper from last year, he's too inexperienced, too rash etc. There are no glaring errors as such, similar to Bazunu, but lots of goals they say he 'should save'.

I guess all goalkeepers need a start, but it does feel as if these City kids are getting thrown into the lions den a bit too quickly before they're fully matured (Gunn is another one). I reckon they'll all have decent careers for themselves, as Gunn is now demonstrating at Norwich (before he was injured). It's just the clubs having to deal with their growing pains.

I think what we're seeing is a reflection of the change in the game. For many years up until not that long ago the criteria for judging a keeper were 1) making saves, 2) communication, 3) coming for crosses, and 4) distribution - probably in that order.

Today, with the way the game is played, distribution is a far more important factor. And the lighter, livelier ball (coupled with the blocking and hand-to-hand combat permitted in the box at every corner and free kick) has pretty much made "coming for crosses" a thing of the past; it has also made the "making saves" part harder. We used to wear gloves to help us keep hold of a wet or slick ball, but now they wear them all the time to make their hands bigger.

The very nature of goalkeeping has changed, but we still tend to judge today's keepers on yesterday's criteria. Keepers are getting thrown-in much earlier - probably too soon - because they grew up with the new skill set.

Given that backdrop, I think Bazunu is more an asset than a liability, and he's definitely going to get better. He already has.

Edited 11 November, 2023 by CanadaSaint

[Whitey Grandad]

On 08/11/2023 at 23:18, Saint_clark said:

Which stats do you consider to be "real" out of interest? They're literally a factual representation of what has happened. 

They are miles away from being “factual”.

The only figures that mean anything are the goals scored. The rest is imagined and invented.

[Saint_clark]

4 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

They are miles away from being “factual”.

The only figures that mean anything are the goals scored. The rest is imagined and invented.

Goals conceded is imagined and invented?

[St. Ciervo]

Another good game from Baz today. Excellent reactionary save on the line through the scramble in front. 

To the normal questions... I do believe WBA would trade keepers today. I have no reason to believe their keeper would have stopped that final flurry of opportunities, and Baz's distribution was far more confident and well-placed through the majority.

[niceandfriendly]

Recently he’s been looking pretttyyyy pretttyyyyy pretty good. 

[The Cat]

Fans singing his name at the end as the players applaud the Northam, good to see.

Would like to see that save back as it all happened so fast in the stadium.

Very composed with his passing again.

[Whitey Grandad]

6 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Goals conceded is imagined and invented?

“Goals scored” includes goals scored by the opposition.

 

[Pilchards]

Becoming a good keeper as he has a confident defence ahead of him.

Even Holgate was made to feel comfortable because we defend in two good banks of 4.

Well done Martin & Mowbray.

[Bad Wolf]

Almost like he's a decent keeper isn't it?

[S-Clarke]

His distribution is on a different level to what we've had for many years. Our CB's protected him really well to be honest, but he was called on in the last min and put in a ridiculous block - not sure what part of his body it was. 

He's playing with confidence now and it's good to see. He was hung out to dry last year and he must have some balls to come back from being pummelled for 12 months.

[Bad Wolf]

23 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

His distribution is on a different level to what we've had for many years. Our CB's protected him really well to be honest, but he was called on in the last min and put in a ridiculous block - not sure what part of his body it was. 

He's playing with confidence now and it's good to see. He was hung out to dry last year and he must have some balls to come back from being pummelled for 12 months.

I'd say he's our best ever keeper at distribution but then you have to take into account that he's grown up playing like that whereas for most former keepers, it wasn't really a factor.

[Galway saint]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

I'd say he's our best ever keeper at distribution but then you have to take into account that he's grown up playing like that whereas for most former keepers, it wasn't really a factor.

who do you think he has replaced as the best ever keeper at distribution? 

[ant]

1 hour ago, Galway saint said:

who do you think he has replaced as the best ever keeper at distribution? 

Grobbelaar helped distribute a shitload of dodgy money.

[CanadaSaint]

5 hours ago, Galway saint said:

who do you think he has replaced as the best ever keeper at distribution? 

Probably Shilton, for me, but Bazunu is on a different planet to all of them for ball control (let’s not underestimate that part) and distribution. He is arguably a top five keeper in English football for that, and he’s only 21 - with 6-8 years until he reaches his peak.

That encapsulates the futility of this now 29-page, over-simplistic debate. Shilton was the best keeper in the world for several years, but we couldn’t play a modern “build out from the back” style with him in goal.

Putting it another way, in the hope that Bazunu’s harshest critics will start cutting him some slack, we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

Edited 12 November, 2023 by CanadaSaint

[Galway saint]

2 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

Probably Shilton, for me, but Bazunu is on a different planet to all of them for ball control (let’s not underestimate that part) and distribution. He is arguably a top five keeper in English football for that, and he’s only 21 - with 6-8 years until he reaches his peak.

That encapsulates the futility of this now 29-page, over-simplistic debate. Shilton was the best keeper in the world for several years, but we couldn’t play a modern “build out from the back” style with him in goal.

Putting it another way, in the hope that Bazunu’s harshest critics will start cutting him some slack, we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

that final paragraph has to be one of the more absurd to appear on these boards. 

[CanadaSaint]

19 minutes ago, Galway saint said:

that final paragraph has to be one of the more absurd to appear on these boards. 

You set out your position on this thread very early, and have kept painting yourself into that corner ever since. But at some point you need to put the brush down and try to think a bit more rationally. It's ironic that you take one paragraph out of three and ignore the others to suit your case - that's just like your views on Bazunu.

[Barsiem]

2 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

You set out your position on this thread very early, and have kept painting yourself into that corner ever since. But at some point you need to put the brush down and try to think a bit more rationally. It's ironic that you take one paragraph out of three and ignore the others to suit your case - that's just like your views on Bazunu.

C'mon mate... Baz is doing well but saying he would be in the first team over two of our finest ever GKs just because he is better at distribution is ludicrous.  

As an recent example look at Man Utd.  They released De Gea allegedly because his distribution wasn't good enough and bought in a replacement.  Compare their defensive and overall record to last season and tell me that was a good move

Edited 12 November, 2023 by Barsiem

[The Cat]

I think Canada is stretching the argument a bit too far, however the ability of a keeper with his feet is undeniably crucial to how we play. Imagine Forster or McCarthy attempting this, it would be a disaster!

It's much easier to coach a keeper to have better positioning or to tweak their set position than it is to make their passing better.

[danjosaint]

5 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

 we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

Sorry just choked on my cornflakes 

[Saint Billy]

5 minutes ago, danjosaint said:

Sorry just choked on my cornflakes 

Granola for me but my distribution was poor.

[AlexLaw76]

6 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

My christ. One of the most bizarre things ever written on a message board. Shilton and Neimi were immense keepers. Shilton, one of the greatest English keepers of all time.

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

Give him some slack guys. He's Canadian.

[Ed Rooney]

So I’m confused, are we still definitely going to get relegated if we carry on playing this terrible young goalkeeper who is never going to improve and has never shown any signs he can get better or is it alright now, well at least until next week when he doesn’t get near a shot from 4 yards out 

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

Give him some slack guys. He's Canadian.

I'm not your guy, buddy!

[hypochondriac]

7 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

Probably Shilton, for me, but Bazunu is on a different planet to all of them for ball control (let’s not underestimate that part) and distribution. He is arguably a top five keeper in English football for that, and he’s only 21 - with 6-8 years until he reaches his peak.

That encapsulates the futility of this now 29-page, over-simplistic debate. Shilton was the best keeper in the world for several years, but we couldn’t play a modern “build out from the back” style with him in goal.

Putting it another way, in the hope that Bazunu’s harshest critics will start cutting him some slack, we’d be a weaker team with Shilton or Niemi in goal.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on here. 

[The Kraken]

Lowest save percentage in the league. But we’re better off with him than Shilts so it’s swings and roundabouts.

[david in sweden]

14 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

His distribution is on a different level to what we've had for many years. Our CB's protected him really well to be honest, but he was called on in the last min and put in a ridiculous block - not sure what part of his body it was. 

He's playing with confidence now and it's good to see. He was hung out to dry last year and he must have some balls to come back from being pummelled for 12 months.

Baz is not alone with criticism of keepers at the highest levels, but he is improving with every game and we should take that into account.

It takes time for a young keeper to develop and very few in any generation have been successful at such a young age. 

One of Baz'  successors at Man City .. James Trafford (?) cost  Burnley  18 million in the summer and look where they are in the Prem. table

but as I've always said......." .a keeper is only as good as the defence in front of him ". 

The season that England keeper Peter Shilton signed for Saints, (1982-83) ..we conceded 19 goals in his first 9 games.. .not all his fault. 

[Bad Wolf]

13 hours ago, Galway saint said:

who do you think he has replaced as the best ever keeper at distribution? 

Good question. Gazza was quite good at playing it out tbf

[Weston Saint]

2 hours ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

Give him some slack guys. He's Canadian.

He is actually an ex Saints Academy Goalkeeper who emigrated to Canada.

[Saint Matty 76]

I'd be lying if I said that I feel comfortable with him in goal but if he can't kick on and take confidence from Preston (goal-ish), Millwall (clean-sheet) and a last minute save with the whole Northam chanting his name then it probably won't ever happen for him.

He isn't going to be replaced so we have to put all our energy into supporting him. Absolutely fantastic distribution again yesterday, which of course is nobodies concern when it comes down to his abilities anyway.

[CanadaSaint]

I knew the post would attract some pelters because some people are unwilling or unable to think about this in a broader context than just some (debatable) shots-saved statistics.

It was based on the entire premise that the role of the keeper has changed significantly - especially in OUR playing style. Shilton was the second-best keeper I ever saw, and Niemi was awesome. Is Bazunu better than them across the old-style skillset? No, of course he isn’t – not even close.

But his ability to be the fulcrum for launching our attacks is far ahead of both of them. That’s no disrespect to Shilton and Niemi, because that skillset wasn’t really an expectation when they were around. It’s a comment on something very important that Bazunu brings to THIS side playing THIS style of football.

On that basis I said we’re a better TEAM with him in the side – not that he’s a better keeper.

He’s 21, and yet to develop a lot of the reading skills, positional sense and anticipation that only come with experience. One of his weaknesses is “cheating” towards the near post, which tended to compromise his positioning, but he’s not doing that as much now. He’s already progressing along that learning curve.

[AlexLaw76]

6 minutes ago, CanadaSaint said:

I knew the post would attract some pelters because some people are unwilling or unable to think about this in a broader context than just some (debatable) shots-saved statistics.

It was based on the entire premise that the role of the keeper has changed significantly - especially in OUR playing style. Shilton was the second-best keeper I ever saw, and Niemi was awesome. Is Bazunu better than them across the old-style skillset? No, of course he isn’t – not even close.

But his ability to be the fulcrum for launching our attacks is far ahead of both of them. That’s no disrespect to Shilton and Niemi, because that skillset wasn’t really an expectation when they were around. It’s a comment on something very important that Bazunu brings to THIS side playing THIS style of football.

On that basis I said we’re a better TEAM with him in the side – not that he’s a better keeper.

He’s 21, and yet to develop a lot of the reading skills, positional sense and anticipation that only come with experience. One of his weaknesses is “cheating” towards the near post, which tended to compromise his positioning, but he’s not doing that as much now. He’s already progressing along that learning curve.

It is getting peters because it is an utterly ridiculous comment, that did not need to be said