Will Still Poll - Keep or Replace?

[OneMrsWallace]

Some insightful and intelligent comments on this thread..WTF is going on! I agree it's a much bigger issue than the manager but I voted sack him, mainly for the drama.

Can we do this again after tomorrow night's game. It's fun - in a kind of masochistic way 😄

[RedArmy]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

 

The fact that Edozie, Aribo and Smallbone, who were all regulars in our promotion team, can’t get a game now should tell you something about the players we’ve got now.

Smallbone doesn’t play for Saints so he’d do well to get a game. 
 

Edozie and Aribo weren’t with the first team for a long period as they were assumed to be leaving. They will be brought back in gradually and based on the first teams performances will get minutes on the pitch. 
 

 

[RedArmy]

3 hours ago, saintant said:

This is my take as well. Will Still has to be given time to work with the new players and integrate them into a formation that works. If after perhaps a maximum of 10 more games he hasn't done that then fair enough it will be time to look for a replacement.

He’s not reinventing the wheel. Whatever his system is, if he even has one, it’s basic as fuck.
If professional footballers can’t pick that up in the 3 weeks they’ve been here then they never will. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

21 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

We spent a fair whack last summer

 

Yes we did, but on what and to what end? Didn’t buy a GK when we were faced with relying on the statistically worst GK in the previous Championship season and a senior GK that is well past his prime (but still better than the no.1). Didn’t buy a big, strong, mobile striker who knew how to shoot on target but instead chose to rely on forwards crocked, scarred or too young. Didn’t buy two top quality commanding midfielders - a box to box playmaker and a defensive enforcer, but relied on players that had mediocre previous seasons. And lastly we continue to play two CB’s that are probably collectively league one standard and a full-back mate of RM who can’t defend.

Yes, we’ve bought 10 new players, but how many are making the first team?  I mean what could go wrong? Oh…it already is.

Last point. Hulls squad is valued significantly less than ours, but guess what…it’s fit for purpose. Ours isn’t.

Edited yesterday at 16:17 by Saint Fan CaM

[Ted Bates Statue]

When a manager gets off to a bad start with Saints - sadly, more often than not in recent years -  this quote from The Thick of It often springs to mind: “The PM is not going to sack you after a week. Sacked after 12 months - looks like you've fucked up. Sacked after a week - looks like he's fucked up.”

Accordingly, they'll wait until the concept of promotion is a distant ship on the horizon, and any better, proven managers have grasped opportunities elsewhere, before cutting loose.

 

Edited yesterday at 19:54 by Ted Bates Statue

[saintant]

49 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

He’s not reinventing the wheel. Whatever his system is, if he even has one, it’s basic as fuck.
If professional footballers can’t pick that up in the 3 weeks they’ve been here then they never will. 

The International break ended on 9th September. Whether we like it that didn't allow for a great deal of preparation or for integrating 5-6 new players into a new system. So they've not had anything like 3 weeks to pick it up and anyway new players invariably take time to settle not just at our club. The first game after the International break was on 14th September and being the big local derby against Pompey not exactly an ideal fixture because of all the noise surrounding it. We started ok against Hull but there is nothing Will Still can do if his keeper makes a schoolboy error other than drop Bazunu for the next run of games which I hope he does. THB then has a couple of brain farts and he's another who must now be dropped. The fragility of this side when going behind is well documented and remains a thorn in our side. There are extenuating circumstances for why we are not anything like the well oiled machine we'd like but I'm afraid, like it or not, it is going to take patience. 

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, OneMrsWallace said:

Some insightful and intelligent comments on this thread..WTF is going on! I agree it's a much bigger issue than the manager but I voted sack him, mainly for the drama.

Can we do this again after tomorrow night's game. It's fun - in a kind of masochistic way 😄

The life of a Saints fan right now...

[Roo1976]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Yeah, but Laurie had pedigree & had done a couple of decent jobs in this country. He also didn’t learn his trade playing Subbuteo with his brothers. He was a leader of men, and more importantly, wasn’t ginger. 

but  you voted to give him more time?.................................................................

[RedArmy]

2 hours ago, saintant said:

The International break ended on 9th September.

How many of the new signings went away on international duty? 

[Dr Who?]

Cannot trust our board to replace, as they have a terrible record. 

I just would like our club to be taken over from these cowboys! 

Edited yesterday at 20:43 by Dr Who?
‘The’ club changed to ‘our’ club.

[Gloucester Saint]

17 minutes ago, Dr Who? said:

Cannot trust our board to replace, as they have a terrible record. 

I just would like the club to be taken over from these cowboys! 

There’s the root of the problem, not Jones, not Selles, not even Martin and not Still. @L1Minus10 is right, SR spent around £20m, a lot of money at this level, on three kids from German division 2. Maybe sign the best of the three and put some Championship experience and quality around them. I like Tom Fellows but AA plays there and does have track-record. The recruitment feels like a clutch of individual transactions yet again without any thought about how they knit together on a Saturday.

[Dr Who?]

5 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

There’s the root of the problem, not Jones, not Selles, not even Martin and not Still. @L1Minus10 is right, SR spent around £20m, a lot of money at this level, on three kids from German division 2. Maybe sign the best of the three and put some Championship experience and quality around them. I like Tom Fellows but AA plays there and does have track-record. The recruitment feels like a clutch of individual transactions yet again without any thought about how they knit together on a Saturday.

Yes and I have questioned why 2 of our promotion rivals let players leave to come to us, and at this stage it has not had an impact on their start to the season. 

[saintant]

1 hour ago, RedArmy said:

How many of the new signings went away on international duty? 

Not sure that's relevant to the point I'm making which is that new signings at any club usually take a number of games to settle in. They have to deal with moving to a new area/country, change of coaches and team mates, new systems, language for foreign players, different training methods. It's not just a case of turning up with a pair of boots, saying 'Right I'm ready, what position do you want me?' and hitting the ground running.

[Saint Fan CaM]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

Not sure that's relevant to the point I'm making which is that new signings at any club usually take a number of games to settle in. They have to deal with moving to a new area/country, change of coaches and team mates, new systems, language for foreign players, different training methods. It's not just a case of turning up with a pair of boots, saying 'Right I'm ready, what position do you want me?' and hitting the ground running.

Perhaps the point is, if they were of the standard expected they would be able to hit the ground running?

[saintant]

9 hours ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Perhaps the point is, if they were of the standard expected they would be able to hit the ground running?

Even some of the best players take quite a few games to make their mark at new clubs. Relatively few actually hit the ground running.

Edited 14 hours ago by saintant

[Miltonaggro]

12 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

There’s the root of the problem, not Jones, not Selles, not even Martin and not Still. @L1Minus10 is right, SR spent around £20m, a lot of money at this level, on three kids from German division 2. Maybe sign the best of the three and put some Championship experience and quality around them. I like Tom Fellows but AA plays there and does have track-record. The recruitment feels like a clutch of individual transactions yet again without any thought about how they knit together on a Saturday.

100% this.  I genuinely think a lot of Saints fans in June could have identified the right players in the Championship to target to get us competitive and challenging for promotion having seen what worked over a decade ago.  Most would have gone straight for keeper, centre back, combative midfielder and centre forward at a fraction of the price of the Sporswave.

[OldNick]

7 minutes ago, Miltonaggro said:

100% this.  I genuinely think a lot of Saints fans in June could have identified the right players in the Championship to target to get us competitive and challenging for promotion having seen what worked over a decade ago.  Most would have gone straight for keeper, centre back, combative midfielder and centre forward at a fraction of the price of the Sporswave.

Correct, but we as fans want to see football played to win, the board seem to have this plan of buy young who then go on to be sold at a big profit. It is unsustainable, but our club has the reputation of selling. The players we want, established and experienced do not fit in with SR dreams as those players are at their peak price wise and so they cat see a profit.

Im all for buying young players who other clubs dont know of and may do well, but patently we need a tough spine. Fabianski was out there free, a tremendous keeper, who we have been on the back of wonderful performances (even last season) and other players with expereience and toughness for this league. Add to that get athletic, strong, runners who will outrun and outfight the players we are up against, instead of the constant lightweight fancy dans we seem to keep buying

[Miltonaggro]

3 minutes ago, OldNick said:

Correct, but we as fans want to see football played to win, the board seem to have this plan of buy young who then go on to be sold at a big profit. It is unsustainable, but our club has the reputation of selling. The players we want, established and experienced do not fit in with SR dreams as those players are at their peak price wise and so they cat see a profit.

Im all for buying young players who other clubs dont know of and may do well, but patently we need a tough spine. Fabianski was out there free, a tremendous keeper, who we have been on the back of wonderful performances (even last season) and other players with expereience and toughness for this league. Add to that get athletic, strong, runners who will outrun and outfight the players we are up against, instead of the constant lightweight fancy dans we seem to keep buying

Yes, as GS said, the problem is Sport Republic, who seem completely incapable of learning despite repeated kicks in the bollocks.  From their first day at the club, if they had tried to walk before they learned to run we would likely still be a stable and established top flight club.

[OldNick]

1 minute ago, Miltonaggro said:

Yes, as GS said, the problem is Sport Republic, who seem completely incapable of learning despite repeated kicks in the bollocks.  From their first day at the club, if they had tried to walk before they learned to run we would likely still be a stable and established top flight club.

Yes had we stayed up that first season we would be in clover, but the fools ruined everything. To make us established again we would need to spend 3-400m as the whole first team would need to be replaced. 

[DT]

Should never have been appointed in the first place. Should always have gone for experience rather than clever clever next gem bollocks.

Give him 10 games and then see. Relegation is a distinct possibility if not.

[Saint86]

I think fundamentally we have 1 player that appears to be significantly damaged by a loss of confidence and form by Martin's football and what it delivered damage wise last season. And that is THB. He is a shell of the player he was previously. With THB playing as he is, and with Stephens and Manning alongside him, we are absolutely horrendous at the back.

Stephens is just about okay (and in fairness to him, he has been leading on the pitch and does seem to have shrugged off last season), but he is along way from being a great defender even at championship level.

Manning cannot defend at all - and as good as his attacking output can be, what we need right now is a solid left back.

And THB is just an absolute calamity in the middle of defence at the moment.

Way forward?

On paper, we have very good and skillfull attacking players - Fellows, Scienza, Robinson - these are all pacey wingers that enjoy carrying the ball, running at defenders, and who have end product in and around the box. Fraser as well is a solid winger at this level, and i've been impressed with his effort and fitness this season so far.

In front of them, what we do have is pace and movement - Archer and Armstrong obviously, but also Stewart (when fit) is a pretty damn mobile target man.

As a result - our attackers are not best suited to a high line - they want to be running at teams, or running in behind teams - that means we need to not push up as high in general terms, and give teams every opportunity to move up the pitch and leave space in behind.

With respect to midfield - we have 4 quality central midfielders for this level - Charles, Downes, Jander, and Azaz. Between them they are a great mix of creativity, through passing, and general ball recycling. Charles in particular can do a more defensive role and has the making of a very good box to box midfielder in my eyes. Downes as well is perhaps better suited to a defensive role (as opposed to pushing up to support the attack).

The other key issue we're seeing already, is that Azaz is struggling being pushed so far forward in the 10 - he is having bodies happy to mark him out of the game, we aren't finding him with the ball, and he is struggling to influence the game - needs to be player deeper in a central midfield role (if we want to use him as the playmaker) and allowed space to create players and float around - arriving at the box when he wants, supporting wide players when he wants, and dropping deeper to collect the ball and start moves. We've bought a playmaker - trust him and free him to be allowed to play - Jander is similar with regards to his passing and playmaking attributes.

Defensively, our CBs are slow and struggle in the air - with the exception of Quarshie, and this makes him an absolute must start in my eyes. He gives us pace and physicality, and an answer to the long out ball over the top and the aerial threat that keeps upsetting us (think bishop / mcburnie etc.) But we also need a deeper anchor man in midfield to help mop up flick ons from target men and to support the defence in clearing up after the initial challenge.

I would therefore look at one of two formations for us. Either a 4-2-2-2 (with wider wingers, one central defensive/disciplined mid and one deeper lying creative central mid - azaz/jander, and a deeper lying target man (Stewart/downs).

Or, a 4-1-2-2-1 (with a CDM/anchor man - downes, one supporting central midfielder - Charles), and again a deeper creative player in central mid (azaz) allowed to find space/roam and dictate play). Again, i would go with 2 wide wingers - and then pick the striker to suit the opposition.

Within both formations, task the full backs as undertaking a supporting role - not being tasked with getting all the way up to the byline and leaving us open. And free the wingers to do just the attacking - with movement and support coming from central midfield and the striker. Deploy the high press selectively to win back ball, but don't adopt such a high line (thereby not exposing our weaker defence and encouraging teams to step up). Then aim to move the ball quickly up the pitch, let our attacking players run and carry the ball forward, make use of supporting runs to get bodies arriving in the box, and absolutely play to use the counter at all times its on.

I know its pretty basic - but we need to get the basics right ffs.

 

The problem i have with still currently, is that i'm really struggling to see any patterns of play developing, and he seems blind to what are abundantly obvious defensive weaknesses.

Edited 11 hours ago by Saint86

[spyinthesky]

19 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Yeah, but Laurie had pedigree & had done a couple of decent jobs in this country. He also didn’t learn his trade playing Subbuteo with his brothers. He was a leader of men, and more importantly, wasn’t ginger. 

I suppose winning the Fourth Division with Doncaster & Grimsby would be looked upon as decent achievements.
However I would humbly suggest that there would be lots of expressions of disappointment on here if the latter day Saints owners had appointed a Fourth Division Manager who then was involved in an immediate relegation in 1973 and a lengthy struggle in the Second Division prior to redemption in 1976 & 1978.

[Sunglasses Ron]

An anagram of Will Still is Still Will, so I can on surmise from this that we'll stick by him for a little while.

[whelk]

Ok I am a fickle bastard. He deserves more time

[RedArmy]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Ok I am a fickle bastard. He deserves more time

See you back here at 5pm on Saturday. 

[Harry_SFC]

2 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

See you back here at 5pm on Saturday. 

Or 1.45pm when he names the same defence as last Saturday...

[RedArmy]

6 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Or 1.45pm when he names the same defence as last Saturday...

And Ryan ‘all fart and no shit’ Fraser comes back in. 
 

We looked so much more fluent and direct going forward without him today. Saints fans always seem to have a fetish for a player that works hard and runs their socks off regardless of how good they actually are. Fraser is our 25/26 version, I’d like to see him firmly relegated to a super sub. 
 

 

[Roo1976]

12 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

And Ryan ‘all fart and no shit’ Fraser comes back in. 
 

We looked so much more fluent and direct going forward without him today. Saints fans always seem to have a fetish for a player that works hard and runs their socks off regardless of how good they actually are. Fraser is our 25/26 version, I’d like to see him firmly relegated to a super sub. 
 

 

Where as Damion Downs is all shit and we've run outta toilet roll..................................................in response to Fraser.