Saints v Sheff Utd - Wednesday 1945

[Osvaldorama]

28 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Yep. If you take out that purple patch in November and extrapolate our PPG from the runs of games either side of it, we would currently be sitting on about 21 points, with only the basket case of Wednesday keeping us off bottom.

That’s absolutely fucking abysmal tbh. 
 

Generally I don’t like fans getting on players backs, as it doesn’t really help.

But this group actually aren’t fit to wear the shirt and I’m glad the fans let them know this weekend. 
 

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, Gloucester Saint said:

We’d be several points adrift with only Sheff Weds below us by now. Appreciate that the current form is where we’d have landed anyway and relegation looks very likely still without appointing a manager whose balls and voice have dropped. But it wasn’t for that string of victories in November, we’d have been nailed on to join the Owls in L1. 

You literally have no idea how we would be doing now if we'd kept Still. None of us do. I'm willing to bet though that had we kept working on it, we'd have improved steadily and been in a better position than we are now - lest we forget that there were many games where we cut through teams and created dozens of chances but were let down by poor finishing. Then first game after he'd gone, we played shite, created two chances and scored them both. Go figure. 

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, Saint_clark said:

You literally have no idea how we would be doing now if we'd kept Still. None of us do. I'm willing to bet though that had we kept working on it, we'd have improved steadily and been in a better position than we are now - lest we forget that there were many games where we cut through teams and created dozens of chances but were let down by poor finishing. Then first game after he'd gone, we played shite, created two chances and scored them both. Go figure. 

Nah.. not having that. He was horrendous. He’s a big part of the reason we are still this bad. We’d probably be in the relegation zone without the new manager bounce. 
 

Complete lack of fitness and patterns of play. Baffling subs too.  

[saintant]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

You literally have no idea how we would be doing now if we'd kept Still. None of us do. I'm willing to bet though that had we kept working on it, we'd have improved steadily and been in a better position than we are now - lest we forget that there were many games where we cut through teams and created dozens of chances but were let down by poor finishing. Then first game after he'd gone, we played shite, created two chances and scored them both. Go figure. 

I would probably agree with you on two conditions;

1) the players respected him and fought tooth and nail for him.

2) there was no influence from within the club and he was allowed to get on and put his own ideas into practice.

[Gloucester Saint]

25 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

You literally have no idea how we would be doing now if we'd kept Still. None of us do. I'm willing to bet though that had we kept working on it, we'd have improved steadily and been in a better position than we are now - lest we forget that there were many games where we cut through teams and created dozens of chances but were let down by poor finishing. Then first game after he'd gone, we played shite, created two chances and scored them both. Go figure. 

As @saintant posted above, any improvement would have been contingent on the senior players putting some effort (only Scienza was, and Fellows wasn’t even getting a game). Given AA practically admitted that they didn’t for Will afterwards, I’m not convinced.

We were creating a lot more chances but missing them but also conceding horrifically eg Hull away, which has only re-appeared at Boro onwards. He did at least drop Baz and Jack which probably was fuel for more stabbing in the back from the dressing room and Staplewood.

He was still wedded to the same formation and we just went longer without a midfield. Even the wins like Wrexham were a 5 minute purple patch with us very patchy through the other 85. That game could have been 5-5, we had no pattern as a newly relegated side v a newly promoted one.

I liked what he said and clearly capable of independent thought unlike Tonda-bot. But it rarely translated onto the pitch and in our job our size you have to manage or dispatch Martin’s lovers, the rest of the players, the press and upwards with SR. Very challenging and needs a more experienced head who will call Rasmus, Spors and Martin’s core out on poor and slow performance, on the pitch, and in bringing in the much-needed strong and quick spine through the squad. Neither Still nor Tonda have the body of experience to help them deliver that.

 

Edited yesterday at 13:19 by Gloucester Saint

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

You literally have no idea how we would be doing now if we'd kept Still. None of us do. I'm willing to bet though that had we kept working on it, we'd have improved steadily and been in a better position than we are now - lest we forget that there were many games where we cut through teams and created dozens of chances but were let down by poor finishing. Then first game after he'd gone, we played shite, created two chances and scored them both. Go figure. 

I completely disagree. We were going backwards under Still and getting steadily worse, not better. That Blackburn game in particular was without doubt the single worst team performance I've ever watched us attempt. Nobody had the slightest fucking clue what they were supposed to be doing that day. I've seen Sunday league teams still pissed from the night before play with better organisation.

As poor as we have been recently, we're still nowhere near that level of utter shitness yet. We at least look a little more organised now than then. The problem is we're still coughing up easy chances game after game because of individual errors, and we've forgotten where the net is at the other end.

BTW - this is in no way an endorsement of Tonda. I still firmly believe he was a fucking terrible appointment and should never even have been considered, let alone given the job.

[derry]

I see we've employed another bloody analyst. Does nobody believe their eyes any more. What's wrong with us. Simply too much possession, the God of Stupidity. Most of that inflated possession is short passing in our own half. All that does is buy the opposition the time to form their defence, get plenty of players back and have enough bodies to block the bulk of our efforts. Every match its the same. Manning on Saturday made the most decisive pass of his season a perfect through ball to McBurnie for Hull's first goal.

Our defenders stand in their zones and although we outnumber the forwards we are cut apart time after time because nobody is attacking the ball whether on the ground or crosses, Wood trying to grapple an opponent who just jumps and heads the ball in. Too many centre backs, nobody taking responsibility. Full backs who play like wingers don't defend and leave acres of space behind them. Three centre backs who haven't a clue about playing together or attacking crosses. Yet the analytics tell a different story, loads of chances created etc. The analytics bring in Downs etc, Ekhert quotes them as if we were too good to lose, Total Bollocks. 

The best football, is maximum effort, high tempo, constant pressure, quick breaks. We are the opposite and getting the results our play is deserving. 

[rooney]

17 minutes ago, derry said:

 

The best football, is maximum effort, high tempo, constant pressure, quick breaks. We are the opposite and getting the results our play is deserving. 

and some beef with a lot of guts behind it.

[Morse]

Wilder is way to canny to do anything other than have his team press us high up the pitch until the inevitable happens and one of our 'defenders' shits themselves and gives the ball away for 0-1. This may happen a few times so expect 0-3. 

[SWLondon Saint]

7 minutes ago, Morse said:

Wilder is way to canny to do anything other than have his team press us high up the pitch until the inevitable happens and one of our 'defenders' shits themselves and gives the ball away for 0-1. This may happen a few times so expect 0-3. 

We were actually lucky to win 1-2 at theirs under Still so am expecting a revenge win for them, especially as we're so f***ing predictable these days. 

[Harry_SFC]

3 hours ago, saintant said:

I would probably agree with you on two conditions;

1) the players respected him and fought tooth and nail for him.

2) there was no influence from within the club and he was allowed to get on and put his own ideas into practice.

Tbh I don't think these players will fight tooth and nail for anyone (maybe RM). Absolute wankers. 

[SWLondon Saint]

3 hours ago, saintant said:

I would probably agree with you on two conditions;

1) the players respected him and fought tooth and nail for him.

2) there was no influence from within the club and he was allowed to get on and put his own ideas into practice.

Maybe, but that wasn't happening and he'd clearly lost the plot. In his defence I would say he did seem to know what the problem was but I guess he was undermined by 'good bloke' Cap'n Jack and his cronies who clearly WERE the players who went to the board and said we don't trust the manager as was leaked early in the season.

He dropped them and they did him over by going on strike basically. And either he didn't know how to get rid of them or he wasn't allowed to exert authority and kick them down to the U21s. Can't see any other explanation.

[Saint_clark]

3 hours ago, saintant said:

I would probably agree with you on two conditions;

1) the players respected him and fought tooth and nail for him.

 

 

3 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

As @saintant posted above, any improvement would have been contingent on the senior players putting some effort (only Scienza was, and Fellows wasn’t even getting a game). Given AA practically admitted that they didn’t for Will afterwards, I’m not convinced.

 

Again, our senior players are serial losers - we should be backing the manager, not them.

[Gloucester Saint]

21 minutes ago, SWLondon Saint said:

Maybe, but that wasn't happening and he'd clearly lost the plot. In his defence I would say he did seem to know what the problem was but I guess he was undermined by 'good bloke' Cap'n Jack and his cronies who clearly WERE the players who went to the board and said we don't trust the manager as was leaked early in the season.

He dropped them and they did him over by going on strike basically. And either he didn't know how to get rid of them or he wasn't allowed to exert authority and kick them down to the U21s. Can't see any other explanation.

The leak plus AA’s admission makes it clear he was being undermined.

Too much too soon but that squad of players outside of Fellows, Leo, Charles, Jandar, Weligton (as far as we know), Robinson, Peretz and Stewart (when fit), and probably Alex are trouble with a capital T. THB maybe cares a bit more as well.

Not to mention lazy with their Martinball and disinterested in the club’s league position and pride. 

[Gloucester Saint]

6 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

 

Again, our senior players are serial losers - we should be backing the manager, not them.

We agree, 🦆 said earlier that we probably should have backed Juric for longer where the Martin crew played up. But then we might have also have ‘claimed’ Derby’s record. I don’t think they’d have put in at West Ham or v City like they did for Rusk and Lallana.

The players are a disgrace in the main I concur bar the new arrivals and solid people like Bree returning. I think the fans handbrake will come off a bit more after Sunday and they’ll be clear where they stand with us if they aren’t already. 

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

I completely disagree. We were going backwards under Still and getting steadily worse, not better. That Blackburn game in particular was without doubt the single worst team performance I've ever watched us attempt. Nobody had the slightest fucking clue what they were supposed to be doing that day. I've seen Sunday league teams still pissed from the night before play with better organisation.

As poor as we have been recently, we're still nowhere near that level of utter shitness yet. We at least look a little more organised now than then. The problem is we're still coughing up easy chances game after game because of individual errors, and we've forgotten where the net is at the other end.

BTW - this is in no way an endorsement of Tonda. I still firmly believe he was a fucking terrible appointment and should never even have been considered, let alone given the job.

Agreed. Those last 25 minutes or so at Blackburn were the worst i've seen. Started off by the completely ridiculous decision to take off Scienza for Stephens, meaning we had 4 centre backs and 6 defenders on the pitch. Within minutes they were level, losing was then inevitable. Completely disorganised, players not sure where they were meant to be or what they were meant to be doing, it was absolutely shambolic and the time i decided that Still wasn't going to cut it.

[notnowcato]

No shiny shits left.  We'll flatter to deceive and lose handsomely to a team with less talent but bigger balls.  Fuck em.

[Football Special]

14 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Agreed. Those last 25 minutes or so at Blackburn were the worst i've seen. Started off by the completely ridiculous decision to take off Scienza for Stephens, meaning we had 4 centre backs and 6 defenders on the pitch. Within minutes they were level, losing was then inevitable. Completely disorganised, players not sure where they were meant to be or what they were meant to be doing, it was absolutely shambolic and the time i decided that Still wasn't going to cut it.

I'd say that abysmal spell at Blackburn was matched by the spell at Middlesbrough where we completely fell apart gifting them 4 goals , it's been a bloody awful season hasn't it 

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Football Special said:

I'd say that abysmal spell at Blackburn was matched by the spell at Middlesbrough where we completely fell apart gifting them 4 goals , it's been a bloody awful season hasn't it 

Good shout. Didnt see that one, i was at Blackburn and in a high enough position to see all the complete chaos unfolding. It beggared belief.

[SWLondon Saint]

16 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Agreed. Those last 25 minutes or so at Blackburn were the worst i've seen. Started off by the completely ridiculous decision to take off Scienza for Stephens, meaning we had 4 centre backs and 6 defenders on the pitch. Within minutes they were level, losing was then inevitable. Completely disorganised, players not sure where they were meant to be or what they were meant to be doing, it was absolutely shambolic and the time i decided that Still wasn't going to cut it.

Yep. I'm not unsympathetic to him, given the current slump it's more and more clear our toxic players are the problem, but that was the clear 'losing the plot' moment. Only explanation is he just panicked, thought maybe if he brings the chief shit stirrer on he can calm the pot - but obviously a total failure.

I'd have had more respect for him if after he dropped THB and Stephens if he'd just bombed them, Downes, Manning and Baz out of the squad entirely, played 4-2-3-1 with youngsters on the bench and lived with the consequences, even if he'd gotten the sack after they all went crying to the board.

[saintant]

3 minutes ago, SWLondon Saint said:

Yep. I'm not unsympathetic to him, given the current slump it's more and more clear our toxic players are the problem, but that was the clear 'losing the plot' moment. Only explanation is he just panicked, thought maybe if he brings the chief shit stirrer on he can calm the pot - but obviously a total failure.

I'd have had more respect for him if after he dropped THB and Stephens if he'd just bombed them, Downes, Manning and Baz out of the squad entirely, played 4-2-3-1 with youngsters on the bench and lived with the consequences, even if he'd gotten the sack after they all went crying to the board.

Even if that's what he wanted to do he'd never have been allowed to do it. The clique of players who continue to run things at Staplewood need to be identified and got rid of - I think we know who most of them are. Until Ankersen does that (he's probably the only one who can) and then appoints a respected manager with experience and gives him carte blanche nothing will change. Unfortunately Ankersen will not sort this out because him and his massive ego are a large part of the problem.

[Gloucester Saint]

1 hour ago, Football Special said:

I'd say that abysmal spell at Blackburn was matched by the spell at Middlesbrough where we completely fell apart gifting them 4 goals , it's been a bloody awful season hasn't it 

It’s reminded me of 2007/8 - hammerings at Preston, Hull and Sheff Weds (5-1, 5-0 and 5-0), sliding from mid-table nothingness under Burley who lost interest, to the thick of a relegation scrap before Pearson, crucial home win v Bristol City who were flying, point at WBA who were promoted, Lallana’s first goal and then the last day staying up v Sheff Utd. 

Which led onto 08/09 after Lowe messed up and shoved over the cliff what was already a grave situation. The Rasmus of the late 90s and 00s. 

[Jack]

To have any hint of optimism about not getting done over on Sunday, we need a performance and a win on Wednesday. My guess is Saints 1-3 Sheff Utd. 
 

I’m close enough to SMS to wait until the lineup is announced before leaving home. If it at all resembles what we saw on Saturday and Boro away, I’ll be watching on the sofa instead of bothering to use my ticket. Tonda has to grow a pair and make some serious changes to how we approach games 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

5 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

Nah.. not having that. He was horrendous. He’s a big part of the reason we are still this bad. We’d probably be in the relegation zone without the new manager bounce. 
 

Complete lack of fitness and patterns of play. Baffling subs too.  

Not much has really changed. Fitness still seems to be an issue. No real on pitch strategy and raffle ticket subs still being made. 

[JohnS]

No doubt another Groundhog Day performance & loss 😞 really can’t feel any hope 

Currently watching the Brighton vs Bournemouth game - 2 teams coached on a complete different level - positive, direct, high energy, fight/will to win, entertaining

Sadly - Everything we are not

[saintant]

43 minutes ago, JohnS said:

No doubt another Groundhog Day performance & loss 😞 really can’t feel any hope 

Currently watching the Brighton vs Bournemouth game - 2 teams coached on a complete different level - positive, direct, high energy, fight/will to win, entertaining

Sadly - Everything we are not

Love to see a fitness competition between us and Bournemouth. They'd absolutely slaughter us.

[madge]

8 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

Nah.. not having that. He was horrendous. He’s a big part of the reason we are still this bad. We’d probably be in the relegation zone without the new manager bounce. 
 

Complete lack of fitness and patterns of play. Baffling subs too.  

Biggest issue is spors.. he’s totally out of his depth in this division. He’s got no idea of what you need to get up Automatically. Pace and power. He’s the biggest issue at the club.

[die Mannyschaft]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

Love to see a fitness competition between us and Bournemouth. They'd absolutely slaughter us.

And compare to Saints £150m plus squad who just about manage to walk and stand still with foot on ball.

[CB Fry]

9 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

You literally have no idea how we would be doing now if we'd kept Still. None of us do. I'm willing to bet though that had we kept working on it, we'd have improved steadily and been in a better position than we are now - lest we forget that there were many games where we cut through teams and created dozens of chances but were let down by poor finishing. Then first game after he'd gone, we played shite, created two chances and scored them both. Go figure. 

Jesus wept.

[benjii]

14 hours ago, rooney said:

and some beef with a lot of guts behind it.

A Greggs pasty?

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

16 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

The leak plus AA’s admission makes it clear he was being undermined.

Too much too soon but that squad of players outside of Fellows, Leo, Charles, Jandar, Weligton (as far as we know), Robinson, Peretz and Stewart (when fit), and probably Alex are trouble with a capital T. THB maybe cares a bit more as well.

Not to mention lazy with their Martinball and disinterested in the club’s league position and pride. 

It was very telling after one of the games with Tonda, when THB effectively said it was confusing before on their jobs (reference to Still). Couple that with their shitty attitudes, we'd definitely be worse if Still had stayed.

Edited 10 hours ago by JohnnyShearer2.0

[musesaint]

Like all clubs Saints have some average players amongst the squad but what makes the difference in our performances is how the club now seems to have a unique ability to totally ruin (or alternatively sell!) the very good players that we have.
 

Changing managers every 5 minutes also does nothing to get the best out of players or to provide any cohesion within the team. Who’d want to come to Saints in the current environment to “improve” their career? 

[ally_uk]

0-2 Sheff United, Bamford scoring 

[Appy]

2 hours ago, musesaint said:

Like all clubs Saints have some average players amongst the squad but what makes the difference in our performances is how the club now seems to have a unique ability to totally ruin (or alternatively sell!) the very good players that we have.
 

Changing managers every 5 minutes also does nothing to get the best out of players or to provide any cohesion within the team. Who’d want to come to Saints in the current environment to “improve” their career? 

It does nothing to help it when they keep making inexperienced appointments or ones that are just plain wrong, or quite often, both. 

[Saint_clark]

3 hours ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

It was very telling after one of the games with Tonda, when THB effectively said it was confusing before on their jobs (reference to Still). Couple that with their shitty attitudes, we'd definitely be worse if Still had stayed.

Again...if they're too thick to play a style of football that isn't passing sideways and backwards at every opportunity, they should be booted out the door. 

[Baird of the land]

3 hours ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

It was very telling after one of the games with Tonda, when THB effectively said it was confusing before on their jobs (reference to Still). Couple that with their shitty attitudes, we'd definitely be worse if Still had stayed.

As a fan i came away from watching every Still game with no clue what the plan was, so i can understand why THB might have said that.

I may not completely agree with Tonda's set up but you can see what they are trying to do more often than not.

[Appy]

14 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

As a fan i came away from watching every Still game with no clue what the plan was, so i can understand why THB might have said that.

I may not completely agree with Tonda's set up but you can see what they are trying to do more often than not.

You can see what they’re trying do with plan A, but as soon as that goes to shit, I genuinely have no idea what they’re trying, which is just as bad. 

[tdmickey3]

2 minutes ago, Appy said:

You can see what they’re trying do with plan A, but as soon as that goes to shit, I genuinely have no idea what they’re trying, which is just as bad. 

Usually involves substituting the best performing player because he is utterly clueless

[Toadhall Saint]

2 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

As a fan i came away from watching every Still game with no clue what the plan was, so i can understand why THB might have said that.

I may not completely agree with Tonda's set up but you can see what they are trying to do more often than not.

Thing is so can every other manager.

[Saint Garrett]

I can't be bothered to go, save myself for Fratton humiliation instead...

 

[jamesfp1]

442 with Stewart starting or we lose

[Jack]

38 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

I can't be bothered to go, save myself for Fratton humiliation instead...

 

Grim isn’t it. Sport Republic have sucked the life out of the club and the enjoyment out of football for me recently 

[Football Special]

2 hours ago, Saint Garrett said:

I can't be bothered to go, save myself for Fratton humiliation instead...

 

I know the 'official' attendance is tickets sold but you can be sure there will be at least a couple of thousand less actually there. 

Not many coming from Sheffield either, not surprisingly 

[Saint Pete]

20 hours ago, madge said:

Biggest issue is spors.. he’s totally out of his depth in this division. He’s got no idea of what you need to get up Automatically. Pace and power. He’s the biggest issue at the club.

I'm not so sure about that personally, I agree we are missing power down the middle of the pitch, but I would argue we do have pace in the team, going forward at least now after the summer  signings with the likes of Scienza and Fellows and also Azaz and Armstrong are no slouches, you could see the pace we had when breaking in that short-lived purple patch when Tonda came in. Attacking wise, the summer recruitment looked fairly good with the glaring exception of a decent striker, clearly they wrongly thought Downs would be adequate if Stewart got injured again, which was obviously a serious error. Our biggest issues squad wise are the continued absence of an effective striker with a physical presence (who is not injured 90% of the season) and competent centre backs. 

But all of that is secondary to the biggest club issue which is appalling choice of managers. Even allowing for the clear weaknesses described above, we should be getting far better results than we are with the talent we have going forward. Maybe not auto promotion but we should be in the playoff mix in my opinion. But the club have saddled us with 2 very young and inexperienced managers who clearly don't know how to structure and motivate this team to achieve the level they should be at. I firmly believe we would be in better shape if we had done the sensible thing and ignored temporary form when Tonda took over and appointed a more experienced head, like Carrick or even O'Neal.

If Spors was responsible for the managerial appointment decisions, then yes he is a big issue, was he (I genuinely don't know)? Are these decisions made by one man or a wider board? 

[OneMrsWallace]

I think I'm going to cricket nets instead of watching on Sky. I used to hate missing games for whatever reason but now I hate the thought of watching another tepid performance. It feels wrong to think that way because this is our club, good or bad, thick or thin, for life. But It's so obvious quite a few of the players don't care. I'm not convinced Dragan gives a shit either. As Adam and Joe said on their podcast, football is meant to enjoyable for fans, it's meant to be something to look forward to. Well SR have fucked that right up. We'll lose 1-2. 

[BARCELONASAINT]

So pleased i'm working a late shift tomorrow and won't be able to watch what will be another crap performance by players that have made it clear they want out of the club. Absolute miserable time to be a Saints fan.

[Football Special]

24 minutes ago, Saint Pete said:

I'm not so sure about that personally, I agree we are missing power down the middle of the pitch, but I would argue we do have pace in the team, going forward at least now after the summer  signings with the likes of Scienza and Fellows and also Azaz and Armstrong are no slouches, you could see the pace we had when breaking in that short-lived purple patch when Tonda came in. Attacking wise, the summer recruitment looked fairly good with the glaring exception of a decent striker, clearly they wrongly thought Downs would be adequate if Stewart got injured again, which was obviously a serious error. Our biggest issues squad wise are the continued absence of an effective striker with a physical presence (who is not injured 90% of the season) and competent centre backs. 

But all of that is secondary to the biggest club issue which is appalling choice of managers. Even allowing for the clear weaknesses described above, we should be getting far better results than we are with the talent we have going forward. Maybe not auto promotion but we should be in the playoff mix in my opinion. But the club have saddled us with 2 very young and inexperienced managers who clearly don't know how to structure and motivate this team to achieve the level they should be at. I firmly believe we would be in better shape if we had done the sensible thing and ignored temporary form when Tonda took over and appointed a more experienced head, like Carrick or even O'Neal.

If Spors was responsible for the managerial appointment decisions, then yes he is a big issue, was he (I genuinely don't know)? Are these decisions made by one man or a wider board? 

I still don't understand why we didn't get Rohl when he was available, not a huge amount of experience but had done enough with Sheffield Wednesday to be a worthy candidate 

[Football Special]

Anyone watch Tonda's press conference? What wisdom did he share with us today?