Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[LegalEagle]

5 minutes ago, goneawol said:

Maybe sent to Boro’s whistleblower?

And if anything came from some other third party implicating Tonda then it would be hearsay and carry zero weight

[James G]

I think it'll just be a fine and a slap on the wrist

I think the emphasis of the investigation will be more about how we can avoid this in the future, and most Championship grounds are closed off. I think they'll ask Boro to make training more secure 

[saintant]

2 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

Yeah but that would go through the FA as it will be a ban for more than just the EFL. 
 

Not to discredit the poster or the source but this isn’t a criminal case, I don’t necessarily believe that we were under any obligation to provide electronic devices to be examined. 

As someone else said the texts could have been saved on the phone of Taylor who is possibly the whistle blower and the guy we sacked in December.

[Tamesaint]

167 pages after the result is announced and we have finished discussing it. 😁 

[adrian lord]

Just now, James G said:

I think it'll just be a fine and a slap on the wrist

I think the emphasis of the investigation will be more about how we can avoid this in the future, and most Championship grounds are closed off. I think they'll ask Boro to make training more secure 

I wish I could be so optimistic. I fear that the EFL and the football authorities will be looking to set a deterrent sentence. I worry we will be thrown out of the playoffs or at best given a hefty points deduction for next year which the Premier League will roll over and agree to.

[trousers]

17 minutes ago, tisspahars said:

Take or leave this with the usual caveats but I've been told from what (imo) is a good source that the EFL have text messages implicating Tonda in the organisation of spying. Brought my optimism levels crashing down tbh....

To ward off the forum thought police, I'll pre-face what I'm about to say with: "Yes, I know ignorance isn't a defence" and "Yes, I know it won't have any bearing on the verdict of the investigation panel".... 

 

If it transpires that Tonda orchestrated this / these spying mission(s) then I'd be surprised if he was doing it in willful floutation of the rules IMO. It's much more likely that he was ignorant of the rules. "Not a defence m'lud"... Yes, of course, but the optics are 'less bad' if it's ignorance versus wilful law breaking. Whether such optics end up influencing the outcome in some way... Who knows... Maybe, maybe not... But, bottom line, if Tonda has knowingly breached the rules, then I'll be first in line to throw the book at him...

Edited 15 hours ago by trousers

[Sarnia Cherie]

I think I read somewhere that the EFL can make the decision as to whether we are guilty or not but an independent body sets the punishment. Is that right?

[Tamesaint]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

As someone else said the texts could have been saved on the phone of Taylor who is possibly the whistle blower and the guy we sacked in December.

But Tonda only took charge in November and there was an international break then. Not much time for incriminating texts if he was sacked in December. 

[James G]

Just now, adrian lord said:

I wish I could be so optimistic. I fear that the EFL and the football authorities will be looking to set a deterrent sentence. I worry we will be thrown out of the playoffs or at best given a hefty points deduction for next year which the Premier League will roll over and agree to.

If it was a match during the season, it'd be match forfeiture, worse case scenario. So a 3 point deduction

That has to be matched here really as a worse case scenario

[saintant]

2 minutes ago, adrian lord said:

I wish I could be so optimistic. I fear that the EFL and the football authorities will be looking to set a deterrent sentence. I worry we will be thrown out of the playoffs or at best given a hefty points deduction for next year which the Premier League will roll over and agree to.

I admire your confidence in discounting Hull on Saturday.

[Fabrice29]

25 minutes ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

I'm not victim blaming anyone. I specifically said its negligent. A professional organisation that doesnt take care of itself or takes reasonable actions to protect itself is asking for trouble.

Ive said it previously. Saints were stupid and incompetent enough to get caught so will get punished as a result.

Asking for trouble but not victim blaming 🤣 perfectly normal sentence.

[Osvaldorama]

Would be mad to have put it in text messages. 
 

If there are texts then I’d be happy to bet that we didn’t know we’d be breaking any rules. 

[AlexLaw76]

Right, prediction time.

whats going to be the fallout

my views - it will be determine that in the balance of probabilities this was more than just a lone wolf and a more orchestrated thing, possible relating to the manager or Spors.

We will not be contesting the playoff final. Whether Boro are or not is another matter 

[saintant]

2 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

But Tonda only took charge in November and there was an international break then. Not much time for incriminating texts if he was sacked in December. 

Fair point I suppose.

[obelisk]

6 minutes ago, James G said:

I think it'll just be a fine and a slap on the wrist

I think the emphasis of the investigation will be more about how we can avoid this in the future, and most Championship grounds are closed off. I think they'll ask Boro to make training more secure 

That would be the sensible proportionate response to "Gibbo" and his gang.

[Viking Saint]

2 minutes ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

I think I read somewhere that the EFL can make the decision as to whether we are guilty or not but an independent body sets the punishment. Is that right?

Doubt it, or they'd have announced our guilt already

[Tamesaint]

3 minutes ago, adrian lord said:

I wish I could be so optimistic. I fear that the EFL and the football authorities will be looking to set a deterrent sentence. I worry we will be thrown out of the playoffs or at best given a hefty points deduction for next year which the Premier League will roll over and agree to.

Why would the football authorities want a deterrent when the Premier League along with most other leagues don't consider this to be an offence? The EFL are more likely to scrap the rule. 

[Viking Saint]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Right, prediction time.

whats going to be the fallout

my views - it will be determine that in the balance of probabilities this was more than just a lone wolf and a more orchestrated thing, possible relating to the manager or Spors.

We will not be contesting the playoff final. Whether Boro are or not is another matter 

I think we will be. If they boot us, we'll appeal, and then have to be reinstated pending outcome. Wembley/EFL can;t afford not to have a game played there on Saturday.

[beatlesaint]

8 hours ago, West end Saints said:

Dean Holden

Hull assistant manger 

"We are preparing to play Southampton on Saturday at Wembley, that's what we have been told by EFL" ..."purely on Southampton"

"Full focus is, and will remain, on Southampton"

Also says they are not preparing or analysing Middlesbrough at all.

Asked about changing date or venue - that's far-fetched 

 

Hope Boro haven’t seen this……

To quote Dads Army, for those old enough to remember, “Your name will also go on ze list” 😀

[Lord Duckhunter]

26 minutes ago, SouSaint said:

The longer it drags, the more likely it is that we're being booted imo. 

That’s my take as well. They need to be water tight, dot the i’s & cross the T’s if they’re making such a monumental decision. I just don’t think they need to take as much care or time if the result is Southampton v Hull on Saturday. The EFL aren’t appealing that & Boro can’t. I’m a glass half empty bloke , but can’t believe this would have dragged on so long if it wasn’t extremely serious. This thread could go from taking the piss to a massive whinge fest by the end of the day. 

[saintant]

1 minute ago, Osvaldorama said:

Would be mad to have put it in text messages. 
 

If there are texts then I’d be happy to bet that we didn’t know we’d be breaking any rules. 

This won't fly. Negligence will not be accepted as a mitigating factor in my opinion.

[wild-saint]

14 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

Yeah but that would go through the FA as it will be a ban for more than just the EFL. 
 

Not to discredit the poster or the source but this isn’t a criminal case, I don’t necessarily believe that we were under any obligation to provide electronic devices to be examined. 

And if they did have access to digital information, they would want to look at everything like email, texts, WhatsApp’s etc. by the time they redacted any PII any such request would take weeks as a minimum to collect

plus months to review.

Edited 15 hours ago by wild-saint

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

2 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Asking for trouble but not victim blaming 🤣 perfectly normal sentence.

Sigh. The two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. 

 

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Right, prediction time.

whats going to be the fallout

my views - it will be determine that in the balance of probabilities this was more than just a lone wolf and a more orchestrated thing, possible relating to the manager or Spors.

We will not be contesting the playoff final. Whether Boro are or not is another matter 

I think we'll be starting next season in the National League on about -10 points and Tonda and the team banned from football. Probably also stadium ban and transfer embargo. Really struggling to see any other outcome.

 

 

Sorry, been snooping on the Boro forums too much.

[James G]

1 minute ago, Tamesaint said:

Why would the football authorities want a deterrent when the Premier League along with most other leagues don't consider this to be an offence? The EFL are more likely to scrap the rule.  

That's the thing, Southampton can spy freely next year, it's not an offence in the top league

[skintsaint]

Just now, James G said:

That's the thing, Southampton could spy freely next year, it's not an offence in the top league

Still gotta beat Hull.

[beatlesaint]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

That’s my take as well. They need to be water tight, dot the i’s & cross the T’s if they’re making such a monumental decision. I just don’t think they need to take as much care or time if the result is Southampton v Hull on Saturday. The EFL aren’t appealing that & Boro can’t. I’m a glass half empty bloke , but can’t believe this would have dragged on so long if it wasn’t extremely serious. This thread could go from taking the piss to a massive whinge fest by the end of the day. 

I don’t get why you keep banging on about this “longer it takes…” angle. The hearing was set for today, that’s it. You don’t just gather a group of legal people together for a hearing at the drop of a hat. This isn’t the duty solicitor dealing with a drunk on a Saturday night at Southampton nick.

[Tamesaint]

8 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Right, prediction time.

whats going to be the fallout

my views - it will be determine that in the balance of probabilities this was more than just a lone wolf and a more orchestrated thing, possible relating to the manager or Spors.

We will not be contesting the playoff final. Whether Boro are or not is another matter 

Sorry Jamie. I have to admit that I would be worried if you had a more optimistic opinion. 😁 You must admit that you normally come over as a glass half empty guy. 😁 

We are all different so nothing wrong with that. Fingers crossed that you are wrong . 

Late addition: After reading Duckie's opinion above... Ditto Lord Duckhunter. 😁 

Edited 15 hours ago by Tamesaint

[sockeye]

We will be in the final

 

[James G]

I still find it amazing they recognised Will Salt from the back of one manager of the month photo

[Saint Garrett]

I'll be shocked if we get booted now given we're 3/4 days away from the final. 

My gut feeling is it will be a hefty fine (£500k-£1m) and 3 points deducted.  Also wouldn't be surprised to see Tonda get the sack.

[LGTL]

Just now, James G said:

I still find it amazing they recognised Will Salt from the back of one manager of the month photo

Likewise. Are we saying that if he wasn’t in that photo, none of this ever happens? Bizarre. 

[trousers]

16 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

I’m not saying that you’re making this up but I struggle to see where text messages from Tonda would have come from. As this is not a court case there is no formal disclosure process here and if such texts did exist neither Southampton or Tonda would voluntarily disclose them. I cannot see why Salt would disclose them either. He’s not being charged with anything - criminally or by way of civil sanction.

I might be alone in this thinking, but I reckon there's a good chance Tonda would have come clean and fessed up if he was indeed directly involved in this activity. The last thing he'd / we'd want is to withhold facts that came back to bite us further down the road. As per my previous posts, I think there's a fair chance he did it without knowing about the rule, given theres no such rule in any other league... Again... Not a defence in itself, but it's a more palatable explanation than outright cheating....

[sockeye]

If Tonda does have to take the fall the he’ll become somewhat of a mythical figure. Mysterious German guy who came out of nowhere, had the best win percentage for years, went head to head with several PL teams and commandeered a long unbeaten run, only to leave because of a bizarre series of events. It’ll hurt more than being kicked out of the playoffs altogether to be honest.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

I don’t get why you keep banging on about this “longer it takes…” angle. The hearing was set for today, that’s it. You don’t just gather a group of legal people together for a hearing at the drop of a hat. This isn’t the duty solicitor dealing with a drunk on a Saturday night at Southampton nick.

Let’s see. 
 

If the hearing date was as clear cut as you claim, why did the EFL statement say “on or before”. Surely it would just have said “hearing is Tuesday” I don’t believe for one minute they haven’t been on this all weekend. 

[Willo of Whiteley]

Prediction:

A slap on the wrist, but hefty fine of £2M.

A suspended six point deduction which I think we’ll contest and will be reduced over the summer.

No change to the play off final.

Middlesbrough head loss, and Steve Gibson starts legal proceedings against us. 

[Katalinic]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

I might be alone in this thinking, but I reckon there's a good chance Tonda would have come clean and fessed up if he was indeed directly involved in this activity. The last thing he'd / we'd want is to withhold facts that came back to bite us further down the road. As per my previous posts, I think there's a fair chance he did it without knowing about the rule, given theres no such rule in any other league... Again... Not a defence in itself, but it's a more palatable explanation than outright cheating....

Agreed. I think he would have resigned or been forced to resign. It would help our case mitigation i.e. "we've dealt with this". Dragan has £200m at stake and as much as he and we love Tonda, that would be his main focus. I'm confident therefore Tonda wasn't directly involved.

[trousers]

23 minutes ago, saintant said:

As someone else said the texts could have been saved on the phone of Taylor who is possibly the whistle blower and the guy we sacked in December.

 

19 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

But Tonda only took charge in November and there was an international break then. Not much time for incriminating texts if he was sacked in December. 

As has been floated before, perhaps Salt and Taylor were friends and routinely shared such things with eachother (before this incident)...?

[Dman]

11 minutes ago, James G said:

I still find it amazing they recognised Will Salt from the back of one manager of the month photo

They clearly used his bank details to get his name, linked that to a linked in profile and found the photo on the website for good measure. 

[trousers]

22 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Right, prediction time.

whats going to be the fallout

my views - it will be determine that in the balance of probabilities this was more than just a lone wolf and a more orchestrated thing, possible relating to the manager or Spors.

We will not be contesting the playoff final. Whether Boro are or not is another matter 

Ok if I come back to you in an hour when you've changed your mind again..?   🙂

(Unless this is one of those 'Glasgow Saint' type ploys where you put more than one prediction out there but only quote the right one when doing the "told you so" post at the end....? )

#banter

Edited 15 hours ago by trousers

[die Mannyschaft]

 

 

13 hours ago, Zorba said:

 

[EssEffCee]

1 minute ago, Dman said:

They clearly used his bank details to get his name, linked that to a linked in profile and found the photo on the website for good measure. 

Why are people still spouting this bank details bollocks? The business doesn't get names from card transactions like that.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Prediction:

Fine of more than £2million

Some scouting restrictions, and ensuring correct internal training is in place.

Suspended points deduction of 3 points, reduced to 2 as we've cooperated.

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

I'll be shocked if we get booted now given we're 3/4 days away from the final. 

My gut feeling is it will be a hefty fine (£500k-£1m) and 3 points deducted.  Also wouldn't be surprised to see Tonda get the sack.

If it’s gone that high, they’ll kick us out. If Tonda is involved we’re toast. 

[LegalEagle]

12 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

I'll be shocked if we get booted now given we're 3/4 days away from the final. 

My gut feeling is it will be a hefty fine (£500k-£1m) and 3 points deducted.  Also wouldn't be surprised to see Tonda get the sack.

The club including Tonda know more than we do about the case we’ve put forward. Tonda didn’t look like a man yesterday that fears he’s about to be sacked. He would have known yesterday if he was about to be booted. 

[Saint Garrett]

1 minute ago, EssEffCee said:

Why are people still spouting this bank details bollocks? The business doesn't get names from card transactions like that.

yeah - the analyst team isn't that big. They'd have just done some very easy digging on our team and then matched up the photo, it's not heavy detective work.

[Whitey Grandad]

44 minutes ago, tisspahars said:

Take or leave this with the usual caveats but I've been told from what (imo) is a good source that the EFL have text messages implicating Tonda in the organisation of spying. Brought my optimism levels crashing down tbh....

Within 72 hours?

[benjii]

15 minutes ago, sockeye said:

If Tonda does have to take the fall the he’ll become somewhat of a mythical figure. Mysterious German guy who came out of nowhere, had the best win percentage for years, went head to head with several PL teams and commandeered a long unbeaten run, only to leave because of a bizarre series of events. It’ll hurt more than being kicked out of the playoffs altogether to be honest.

The Kasier Soze of Championship football.

[benjii]

7 minutes ago, Dman said:

They clearly used his bank details to get his name, linked that to a linked in profile and found the photo on the website for good measure. 

No they didnt.

[Zorba]

Prediction: No admissable proof.

No case to answer.