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#Spygate

St Chalet

By St Chalet
in The Saints

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Posted by Miltonaggro,

Apologies for the war and peace post chaps – bear with or scroll past.  For the last week I have been trying to provide a steer on here as to why I think this silly episode will be concluded with a fine (in the region of £200k) and / or a possible future points deduction (though if I were advising Saints I would appeal this).  Simply that talk of forfeit and bans opens a legal can of worms that is well beyond the remit and scope of both the EFL and / or Middlesbrough FC. The best way to get

What a well thought out post. Thank you

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Posted by Saint_clark,

Outstanding.

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sadoldgit

sadoldgit

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

This is all possible and nobody is assuming anything. It’s just a hypothetical discussion. 

Did you read FootballMattin’s post?

Toadhall Saint

Toadhall Saint

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, BH_Saint said:

How well was this 72 hour rule known? Southampton were a PL club when the rule was brought in, did they even know about it?

How strictly have clubs followed the rule? I can't believe that over 7 years, no other team hasn't strayed into the 72 hours. 

Does it sometimes happen and the person viewing is just asked to leave? No big deal made of it.

It doesn’t matter if we knew about the rule or not it’s someone’s job to know hence why we have roles that cover regulatory compliance. Not knowing is not a defence.

  • Like 3
benjii

benjii

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No you weren't. He asked you how you would feel if Saints were kicked out of the playoffs and you gave one answer and then said:

"If Eckert had anything to do with it which lets be honest he will have done. He's had a say in this he knows exactly what is going on." 

"He will lose his job and Johannes Spors will lose his job"

I generally like your stuff so ignore the stupid insults for no reason but I'm just quoting what you said. 

Sounds like defamation. 

Saint86

Saint86

Posted
Posted (edited)

Saw one on social media just now. A boro fan had tried to go on to our tickets website to buy a ticket, saw the "not for sale" message (obviously because he wasn't eligible) and then started a whole thread about how we'd stopped selling tickets because we know we're getting kicked out - with lots of happy / crowing boro fans in the comments🤣

Edited by Saint86
  • Haha 26
Sarcoidevo

Sarcoidevo

Posted
Posted
29 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Again, I think what they do to protect themselves from being spied on by the opposition is check the rules that say the opposition can’t spy on you. It’s not on them to border up their training ground to stop people from Southampton watching them. It’s on Southampton. 

But do they stop and interrogate everyone who stop & watch from a public accessible position?  There must be plenty of people who rock thru there and stop to have a look whats going on 

saintant

saintant

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Sigh. He is presenting it as definitive. That is why it's an odd thing to say. Not difficult to grasp. 

Yawn. Yeah, whatever, if you say so 🙂

  • Confused 1
badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Sarcoidevo said:

But do they stop and interrogate everyone who stop & watch from a public accessible position?  There must be plenty of people who rock thru there and stop to have a look whats going on 

Yep, analysts from all the other Championship teams, at least.

RedArmy

RedArmy

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Saw one on social media just now. A boro fan had tried to go on to our tickets website to buy a ticket, saw the "not for sale" message (obviously because he wasn't eligible) and then started a whole thread about how we'd stopped selling tickets because we know we're getting kicked out - with lots of happy / crowing boro fans in the comments🤣

To be fair that “not on sale” has been added today for non eligible people. 
 

Before that it’s said priority access or whatever it normally says. 

Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

Its not illegal, but you did make me feel uncomfortable as my flash was aimed at someone else, I certainly wasn't prepared for a return flash.  

Was I standing next to a tree at the time and streaming the view on my phone?

Oops, what a giveaway 🥵

James

James

Posted
Posted
Just now, RedArmy said:

To be fair that “not on sale” has been added today for non eligible people. 
 

Before that it’s said priority access or whatever it normally says. 

It still doesn’t mean what that Boro idiot thinks it does though 😂

  • Like 1
NewYorkSaint

NewYorkSaint

Posted
Posted

For those of you who believe the betting markets offer a big clue, it's interesting tracking the betting on Polymarket. 

https://polymarket.com/event/efl-championship-team-promoted-to-epl

Right now they have Southampton as 53% favorites to be promoted, Hull at 32% and Middlesborough at 16%. Which would only make sense if a) there was about a 30% of Saints being disqualified and b) both Saints and @$#boro are strong favorites to beat Hull.     I don't like that 30% number....   

 

RedArmy

RedArmy

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, James said:

It still doesn’t mean what that Boro idiot thinks it does though 😂

Obviously yes, but when you’re a Boro fan clinging on by your fingernails that’s an easy one to get you excited. 

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Challenger

Challenger

Posted
Posted
56 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Yeah, you tell 'em.

To be fair, all those photographed like this are going to look fucking stupid if all this goes tits up .

  • Haha 1
beatlesaint

beatlesaint

Posted
Posted

Can we not turn in on each other please. I dont know FootballMartin personally but he seems like a top bloke and is a genuine fan.

Lets not sink to that level over something we all know little about or have no control over. 

  • Like 15
hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

Can we not turn in on each other please. I dont know FootballMartin personally but he seems like a top bloke and is a genuine fan.

Lets not sink to that level over something we all know little about or have no control over. 

Just like to point out that I like his content and have nothing against him. You had one idiot on here insulting him for no reason but all I was doing was pointing out what he'd said in that livestream. I don't want to encourage any abuse towards the bloke. It's tough when you put yourself out there. 

  • Like 4
Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Sarcoidevo said:

But do they stop and interrogate everyone who stop & watch from a public accessible position?  There must be plenty of people who rock thru there and stop to have a look whats going on 

This is what I don't get.

That Thursday,  two days before one of their most important games in years, you might expet even a few Karenbrough fans to be interested in watching their heroes train. So a young man in casual clothes taking photos on his phone would be nothing unusual. 

Remember,  at this stage there is no reason to suspect a football spy to be involved. Yet their security staff get all officious, demand that he delete any photos or videos and follow him to the clubhouse toilets. Then go to the trouble of allegedly finding out his name from a credit card transaction and search through SFC website photos for a possible match.

The only photograph that they have published is low definition and partly obscured by his phone. That is not enough on its own to positively identify anyone. Why were they so absolutely convinced that he was a Southampton FC employee? Paranoia is not enough to explain their behaviour.

Unless they had further information.

  • Like 2
DellBlockH

DellBlockH

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Is it illegal to stare at a flasher?

(Asking for a friend)

I don't like these analogies but this is an area I know something about (not from being a flasher). It is not illegal to be naked in your home, garden or even Above Bar Street unless your intention is to cause harm or distress to another person. So, if you're just coming from the shower and pass the window, it should not be a problem. If you're standing at the window waving your willy about, you might be liable to prosecution.

What this has to do with the club's current situation, I don't  know.

trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Stud mark of doom said:

Just a thought - is there a possibility that those at the club didn’t know there was a rule against this (seemingly unique EFL and arbitrary time limit). 
 

The senior guys are from overseas. We were in the prem (where it’s fine) when the rule came in, and for most of the time since). Also sounds as if it might be standard practice to ignore it for other clubs.

It did occur to me the other day to float this idea.... I don't think it's a particularly wacky hypothsis that, IF it does transpire that it was indeed Tonda who instigated this/these 'spying' missions, that he was doing so out of a position of ignorance to the rules, given (we're led to believe) that no other major league in the world has such a rule as the "72 hour" EFL rule.

Before I get jumped upon by the forum thought police, yes, I think it's probably unlikley that Tonda was acting ignorantly, and of course, even if he was, we all know that ignorance isn't a defence (well, in a court of law, anyhow)... but can we 100% rule it out as a possibility...?

Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Another view of Millwall’s training ground. You can see a public road and houses plus a fence that all and sundry can look through.

image.jpeg.08da0872873c8c1e92fb3263e448ac76.jpeg

To be fair the name on the flag is a bit of a giveaway. 

  • Like 1
Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, DellBlockH said:

I don't like these analogies but this is an area I know something about (not from being a flasher). It is not illegal to be naked in your home, garden or even Above Bar Street unless your intention is to cause harm or distress to another person. So, if you're just coming from the shower and pass the window, it should not be a problem. If you're standing at the window waving your willy about, you might be liable to prosecution.

What this has to do with the club's current situation, I don't  know.

Thanks, that's worth knowing. 

  • Haha 4
bpsaint

bpsaint

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

To be fair that “not on sale” has been added today for non eligible people. 
 

Before that it’s said priority access or whatever it normally says. 

I’d love it if someone at the ticket office added it just to wind the Karen FC fans up.

SaintLondon

SaintLondon

Posted
Posted
 

I think people have almost convinced themselves that we definitely won’t be thrown out, but I’m not nearly as certain. Personally, I think it would be an absolutely crazy decision for the EFL to make given the scale of the punishment and the wider implications, but I still believe it’s very much on the table.

For whatever reason, I just have a feeling they’ll want to make an example of us. Whether that’s because of the publicity around it, the integrity angle, or simply wanting to show they’re taking these things seriously, it still feels to me like there’s a risk they come down harder than people expect. Which of course, is exactly why Boro have done what they've done with the press side of things - trial by media first etc. 

Osvaldorama

Osvaldorama

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, DellBlockH said:

I don't like these analogies but this is an area I know something about (not from being a flasher). It is not illegal to be naked in your home, garden or even Above Bar Street unless your intention is to cause harm or distress to another person. So, if you're just coming from the shower and pass the window, it should not be a problem. If you're standing at the window waving your willy about, you might be liable to prosecution.

What this has to do with the club's current situation, I don't  know.


Boro are a bunch of wankers, so it’s surprisingly relevant 

  • Haha 2
Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, trousers said:

It did occur to me the other day to float this idea.... I don't think it's a particularly wacky hypothsis that, IF it does transpire that it was indeed Tonda who instigated this/these 'spying' missions, that he was doing so out of a position of ignorance to the rules, given (we're led to believe) that no other major league in the world has such a rule as the "72 hour" EFL rule.

Before I get jumped upon by the forum thought police, yes, I think it's probably unlikley that Tonda was acting ignorantly, and of course, even if he was, we all know that ignorance isn't a defence (well, in a court of law, anyhow)... but can we 100% rule it out as a possibility...?

And not just the 72 hours bit. 'Spying' is just not an issue. 

trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

When did the players travel up there for the first leg?

where they (and staff) already up there when this happened?

The pre-match press conference was on the Wednesday, so I guess our entire entourage could have been up there by the time of the incident on the Thursday morning?

Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
Just now, SaintLondon said:

 

I think people have almost convinced themselves that we definitely won’t be thrown out, but I’m not nearly as certain. Personally, I think it would be an absolutely crazy decision for the EFL to make given the scale of the punishment and the wider implications, but I still believe it’s very much on the table.

For whatever reason, I just have a feeling they’ll want to make an example of us. Whether that’s because of the publicity around it, the integrity angle, or simply wanting to show they’re taking these things seriously, it still feels to me like there’s a risk they come down harder than people expect. Which of course, is exactly why Boro have done what they've done with the press side of things - trial by media first etc. 

'Making an example' is the very definition of disproportionality.

  • Like 6
leeham_69

leeham_69

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, DellBlockH said:

I don't like these analogies but this is an area I know something about (not from being a flasher). It is not illegal to be naked in your home, garden or even Above Bar Street unless your intention is to cause harm or distress to another person. So, if you're just coming from the shower and pass the window, it should not be a problem. If you're standing at the window waving your willy about, you might be liable to prosecution.

What this has to do with the club's current situation, I don't  know.

what if you're standing somewhat behind but mostly next to a tree in middlesbrough waving your willy about and the club photographer snaps you from across the other side of the training pitch, then leaks it to the press?

This is important -  next time, if our Salty spy spies in the nude do we have a stronger defence?

  • Haha 2
AlexLaw76

AlexLaw76

Posted
Posted
Just now, trousers said:

The pre-match press conference was on the Wednesday, so I guess our entire entourage could have been up there by the time of the incident on the Thursday morning?

So he may not have travelled 300 miles off his own back, he was already up there? Or could have been?

  • Like 1
offsidetrap

offsidetrap

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

It's more around the damage to the clubs reputation than anything else. This will affect potential sponsors etc.

Get veho back. They do body worn spy cameras. 

  • Haha 1
AlexLaw76

AlexLaw76

Posted
Posted

If the team and staff were already up there, I wonder how close they were to the training ground.

 

not that it managers as it should not happen, just curious 

  • Like 1
Dman

Dman

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

So he may not have travelled 300 miles off his own back, he was already up there? Or could have been?

We'd have gone up friday. 

Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
Just now, Dman said:

We'd have gone up friday. 

we did, there is a video on the saints facebook page of the players leaving the training ground and some gimp wishing them luck

  • Like 1
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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, DellBlockH said:

I don't like these analogies but this is an area I know something about (not from being a flasher). It is not illegal to be naked in your home, garden or even Above Bar Street unless your intention is to cause harm or distress to another person. So, if you're just coming from the shower and pass the window, it should not be a problem. If you're standing at the window waving your willy about, you might be liable to prosecution.

What this has to do with the club's current situation, I don't  know.

This was not my experience at the magistrates court. 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 6
Ted Bates Statue

Ted Bates Statue

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Another view of Millwall’s training ground. You can see a public road and houses plus a fence that all and sundry can look through.

image.jpeg.08da0872873c8c1e92fb3263e448ac76.jpeg

Drove past a month ago before this all blew up, I was surprised to see it but it seems there are several facilities like this in the Championship, Bristol City and Pompey as a couple of instances, no doubt Wrexham too as Boro were keen to insinuate potential spying there too.

Funnily enough they are constructing a new training ground in Kent, unsurprisingly one of the reasons being a desire for improved privacy! Karen FC take note.

https://southwarknews.co.uk/sport/football/millwall/millwall-reveal-more-details-on-new-training-ground-plans/

I assume this 72-hour rule doesn't exist in the PL because the training facilities at that level are impregnable, there's probably a reason why Fulham and Arsenal didn't bother to jump on the bandwagon that we "must" have been cheating during our unbeaten run.

  • Like 2
Toussaint

Toussaint

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, DellBlockH said:

I don't like these analogies but this is an area I know something about (not from being a flasher). It is not illegal to be naked in your home, garden or even Above Bar Street unless your intention is to cause harm or distress to another person. So, if you're just coming from the shower and pass the window, it should not be a problem. If you're standing at the window waving your willy about, you might be liable to prosecution.

What this has to do with the club's current situation, I don't  know.

What about washing your willy really fast in the window? 

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