The Spygate Saga

[Weston Super Saint]

This is the kind of behaviour that 'brings the game into disrepute', actual breaking of laws :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3qjkpgengn7o

Quote

Switzerland captain Granit Xhaka is under investigation by Swiss prosecutors over allegations he obtained a forged Covid-19 vaccination certificate.

The 33-year-old is alleged to have obtained the certificate in 2022, when it was a requirement in Switzerland for some travel abroad.

The public prosecutor's office of the city of Lucerne confirmed the investigation was under way to determine whether any criminal behaviour took place in obtaining a "false or forged" certificate.

The Sunderland midfielder, who was playing for Arsenal at the time, posted a statement on social media on Monday saying he had a "mistrust" towards the vaccine and had been "influenced by worries and uncertainty".

He said: "In this troubled state of mind I acquired a vaccine certificate, instead of clarifying my unanswered questions in the proper way.

"Today I see clearly, that this way was not correct. It was a mistake. I'm sorry.

"I take responsibility for this decision, will engage with the process of establishing the facts and fully co-operate with the relevant authorities."

I'll bet Tonda receives a harsher sentence though....

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

This is the kind of behaviour that 'brings the game into disrepute', actual breaking of laws :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3qjkpgengn7o

I'll bet Tonda receives a harsher sentence though....

Well yes, one’s an alleged criminal offence, the other is a breach of a sporting regulation. An F1 driver would get a five second time penalty for cutting a chicane but nothing for hare coursing, that’s not how it works.

[qwertyell]

It's the three seperate instances of spying that will probably bury Tonda, I think. Each one is an individual charge.

A one-off offence could perhaps be explained away as a miscalculation of the allowable timeframe for scouting the opposition. Hands up, our bad, take the small hit, move on.

Three times is a deliberate trend of cheating for which we have no credible defence (other than, apparently, whining about how unfair it is to hold us to account, and some guff about local businesses). 

Hypothetically, if the FA were to apply the red card standard where each further transgression gets an extra game of suspension, Tonda could be looking at, say, 3 matches for Oxford, 4 for Ipswich, and 5 for Boro. 

Could we live with a 12 game touchline ban? That's going to be the best part of 3 months of disruption. 

There's no way we can weather 3 months of drifting without a manager if it's a total ban from footballing activities. 

What a mess of our own making. 

 

[egg]

10 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

It's the three seperate instances of spying that will probably bury Tonda, I think. Each one is an individual charge.

A one-off offence could perhaps be explained away as a miscalculation of the allowable timeframe for scouting the opposition. Hands up, our bad, take the small hit, move on.

Three times is a deliberate trend of cheating for which we have no credible defence (other than, apparently, whining about how unfair it is to hold us to account, and some guff about local businesses). 

Hypothetically, if the FA were to apply the red card standard where each further transgression gets an extra game of suspension, Tonda could be looking at, say, 3 matches for Oxford, 4 for Ipswich, and 5 for Boro. 

Could we live with a 12 game touchline ban? That's going to be the best part of 3 months of disruption. 

There's no way we can weather 3 months of drifting without a manager if it's a total ban from footballing activities. 

What a mess of our own making. 

 

Pretty much my take on it. I've said 8-12 games, but arrived at differently. I think we could just about live with 8 and install a caretaker, but 12 is more testing. 

I agree re the whining which, for me, devalues the remorse. 

[Harry_SFC]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Pretty much my take on it. I've said 8-12 games, but arrived at differently. I think we could just about live with 8 and install a caretaker, but 12 is more testing. 

I agree re the whining which, for me, devalues the remorse. 

Yep anything past Christmas and we'd need another manager, surely. It's a huge season for the club given the parachute payment situation etc. We can't piss about with Garner or Lallana in charge for the rest of the season. 

[Turkish]

17 minutes ago, qwertyell said:

It's the three seperate instances of spying that will probably bury Tonda, I think. Each one is an individual charge.

A one-off offence could perhaps be explained away as a miscalculation of the allowable timeframe for scouting the opposition. Hands up, our bad, take the small hit, move on.

Three times is a deliberate trend of cheating for which we have no credible defence (other than, apparently, whining about how unfair it is to hold us to account, and some guff about local businesses). 

Hypothetically, if the FA were to apply the red card standard where each further transgression gets an extra game of suspension, Tonda could be looking at, say, 3 matches for Oxford, 4 for Ipswich, and 5 for Boro. 

Could we live with a 12 game touchline ban? That's going to be the best part of 3 months of disruption. 

There's no way we can weather 3 months of drifting without a manager if it's a total ban from footballing activities. 

What a mess of our own making. 

 

A touchline ban for 12 games is very much doable, the work would be done on the training ground with Tonda involved and then you'd just have someone else in charge on the day, Tonda could even communicate with them so i dont really see that as particularly damaging. However as i said before i dont see why he'd get a touchline ban as the offence didn't happen during a game. I can see them coming down hard on him and us and Parsons bleating about how terrible it all is is completely embarrassing. 

[Cuddles]

Hoping for a £50k fine, three match touchline ban, £10 million fine for Everton and a penalty to Ipswich, suspended until they are back in the Championship.

[Challenger]

4 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

The point raised on tv today was spot on. We have already faced a very harsh penalty for last season and another penalty for this season with -4 points. Why yet another sanction against us?

Because we are a big enough club for everyone to notice and small enough for anyone to care.

[Saint_lambden]

From an optics point of view, it would look ridiculous from the FA to ban him outright after letting him take charge of the first 8/9 games of the domestic season. 

Having said that, I read the play-off expulsion wrong so I’m expecting the worst. 

Parsons’ interview won’t have helped matters.  He’s completely tone deaf at the best of times and playing the victim card a few days before the hearing is not a good look. 

[Saint86]

9 minutes ago, Saint_lambden said:

From an optics point of view, it would look ridiculous from the FA to ban him outright after letting him take charge of the first 8/9 games of the domestic season. 

Having said that, I read the play-off expulsion wrong so I’m expecting the worst. 

Parsons’ interview won’t have helped matters.  He’s completely tone deaf at the best of times and playing the victim card a few days before the hearing is not a good look. 

He's a total liablity - Solak should get ahead of this and just sack him immediately (has to happen after the decision regardless), and then use that to "apologise" to the FA.

Edited yesterday at 18:04 by Saint86

[die Mannyschaft]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

This is the kind of behaviour that 'brings the game into disrepute', actual breaking of laws :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3qjkpgengn7o

I'll bet Tonda receives a harsher sentence though....

Its not a bigger sports story than Spygate. This is just a bit of documentation mistake lawyers will say. Accidentally down loaded something under stress, human rights to decide not to have vaccinations, oversight. 

[die Mannyschaft]

28 minutes ago, Challenger said:

Because we are a big enough club for everyone to notice and small enough for anyone to care.

We have a chance of promotion to Premier League which makes the case important.  if we were in league 1 or 2 no one would care, and the punishment would have been insignificant. 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

We have a chance of promotion to Premier League which makes the case important.  if we were in league 1 or 2 no one would care, and the punishment would have been insignificant. 

I think it's more that the purpose of the cheating was to help us get to the PL, not that promotion to the PL is the prize from this league. 

[die Mannyschaft]

54 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Yep anything past Christmas and we'd need another manager, surely. It's a huge season for the club given the parachute payment situation etc. We can't piss about with Garner or Lallana in charge for the rest of the season. 

At the fans forum we were told there are contingencies and measures in place to cover possibilities. That implies a temp coach has been identified so currently staff or a manager out of contract (not sure who that would be) 

[die Mannyschaft]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

I think it's more that the purpose of the cheating was to help us get to the PL, not that promotion to the PL is the prize from this league. 

Good point

[Saint_lambden]

7 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

At the fans forum we were told there are contingencies and measures in place to cover possibilities. That implies a temp coach has been identified so currently staff or a manager out of contract (not sure who that would be) 

Corberan…

[Midfield_General]

Hasenhüttl

[Hamilton Saint]

2 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

Plan? What's one of those? SR haven't had a plan since they bought the club 

But they do have concepts of a plan.

[benjii]

Arrigo Sacchi....

[Viking Saint]

33 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

At the fans forum we were told there are contingencies and measures in place to cover possibilities. That implies a temp coach has been identified so currently staff or a manager out of contract (not sure who that would be) 

Thomas Frank? Eddie Howe? Nigel Adkins?

Edited yesterday at 18:54 by Viking Saint

[LiberalCommunist]

Remember when Hoddle took temporally charge when Jones was put on leave? From day one, there was no way back. 

Now, although different, this would be the same. 

If he goes, he completely goes. No waiting in the wings for six months. Fuck that. 

We cannot afford to be persecuted indefinitely for this issue. Its gone on too long. 

[Doctoroncall]

33 minutes ago, benjii said:

Arrigo Sacchi....

 Not sure we are ready for a shoe salesman at this moment in time. 

[sandwichsaint]

Anyone got WGS’s number?

[SfcPhil]

I must admit, I'm expecting the worst outcome. But if you think about it this way, we've had a better start under Tonda than we would've under a brand new coach IMO. I think we've actually started pretty well, with this saga still lurking over our heads. Part of me says that if Tonda is given a hefty ban, then at least we can start to move on, but the other part says that he's such promising manager and our best chance of promotion is under him. Either way, it'll be good to have some clarity later this week.

[Football Special]

1 hour ago, LiberalCommunist said:

Remember when Hoddle took temporally charge when Jones was put on leave? From day one, there was no way back. 

Now, although different, this would be the same. 

If he goes, he completely goes. No waiting in the wings for six months. Fuck that. 

We cannot afford to be persecuted indefinitely for this issue. Its gone on too long. 

True, felt bad for Dave Jones, met him once a while after he'd left us, proper sound bloke who seemed really gutted how the allegations ended his time at the club , probably deserved the push for signing Lee Todd though 

[bugenhagen]

1 hour ago, die Mannyschaft said:

At the fans forum we were told there are contingencies and measures in place to cover possibilities. That implies a temp coach has been identified so currently staff or a manager out of contract (not sure who that would be) 

I think you are jumping to a conlusion here that takes it a bit too far. It does not have to mean that they have identified someone from outside the organization.

I think it is far more likely (based on how smart the club thinks it is) that the contigencie plans they have involves Adam Lallana or Ben Garner.

[VectisSaint]

1 hour ago, die Mannyschaft said:

At the fans forum we were told there are contingencies and measures in place to cover possibilities. That implies a temp coach has been identified so currently staff or a manager out of contract (not sure who that would be) 

Woy

[Turkish]

9 minutes ago, bugenhagen said:

I think you are jumping to a conlusion here that takes it a bit too far. It does not have to mean that they have identified someone from outside the organization.

I think it is far more likely (based on how smart the club thinks it is) that the contigencie plans they have involves Adam Lallana or Ben Garner.

If only we had Les Reeds secret file of managers we’ve been tracking for ages, honest we have, so we knew when this situation occurs exactly who we want to replace and outgoing manager as we’d been watching them for ages. The fact they were all unemployed at the time is a complete coincidence 

[danjosaint]

Well it wont happen but 'Arry' was at staplewood the other day

[bugenhagen]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

If only we had Les Reeds secret file of managers we’ve been tracking for ages, honest we have, so we knew when this situation occurs exactly who we want to replace and outgoing manager as we’d been watching them for ages. The fact they were all unemployed at the time is a complete coincidence 

That would be just perfect!

Maybe we also could get a 2-for-1 deal to include the black box with all the players we had been tracking for years - just a coincidence they all had connections to Koeman.

[Saint86]

1 hour ago, Viking Saint said:

Thomas Frank? Eddie Howe? Nigel Adkins?

Frank is an interesting name actually.

[Viking Saint]

Just now, Saint86 said:

Frank is an interesting name actually.

The obvious SR links aside, I've always felt he'd be a good fit here

[Ted Bates Statue]

9 minutes ago, Turkish said:

If only we had Les Reeds secret file of managers we’ve been tracking for ages, honest we have, so we knew when this situation occurs exactly who we want to replace and outgoing manager as we’d been watching them for ages. The fact they were all unemployed at the time is a complete coincidence 

Ah well I can tell you Claude Puel's name never left that list and is currently available, having spent the second half of last season back at Nice to prevent relegation.

Familiar story... his win percentage wasn't great, but on the other hand reached yet another cup final (Lost to Lens, who seem to have really flourished since Will Still left them to join us).

[Harry_SFC]

51 minutes ago, bugenhagen said:

I think you are jumping to a conlusion here that takes it a bit too far. It does not have to mean that they have identified someone from outside the organization.

I think it is far more likely (based on how smart the club thinks it is) that the contigencie plans they have involves Adam Lallana or Ben Garner.

It will be Garner or Lallana for sure. 

[Willo of Whiteley]

3 hours ago, Cuddles said:

Hoping for a £50k fine, three match touchline ban, £10 million fine for Everton and a penalty to Ipswich, suspended until they are back in the Championship.

You’re forgetting a suspended transfer ban for Chelsea and another Watford managerial appointment. Tut tut 😅

[Willo of Whiteley]

Anything for than a two-three month ban messes up a lot of things.

We’d have to replace him if we are serious about promotion.

But you have to trust there is a legitimate plan in place and not just Ben Garner or Adam Lallana standing in. What a shitshow that would be.

With the likes of Matt Le Tissier close to the board you would hope be saying “don’t pull a fast one on the fans”.

[Charlie Wayman]

3 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

Yep anything past Christmas and we'd need another manager, surely. It's a huge season for the club given the parachute payment situation etc. We can't piss about with Garner or Lallana in charge for the rest of the season. 

Depends entirely upon what sanction is applied to Eckert. If he gets a touch line ban only then we can cope very well with Garner and Lallana in the dugout. If it's a total ban for 3 or 6 months then we might as well release him from his contract and find somebody else.

If the FA has decided already on a total ban then it is quite likely the Club will have been advised through the back channels so that it can make alternative arrangements. Nohing I have read or heard suggests the Club are interviewing prospective candidates to succeed Eckert. Wishful thinking but make of that what you will.

[Junkyard Dog]

In my opinion Tonda should have been sacked as soon as all this mess started,  he knew what he authorised was against the rules and it was not a one off. The club handled the hearing poorly kept him on as manager surley they would have realised that the FA would be getting involed It's as if they condone what he did so it drags on he's let the club down and possibly cost them a massive financial loss a four point deduction for this season let the players and fans down and stained the clubs good standing and it's not over yet.

Edited 15 hours ago by Junkyard Dog

[Teamsaint1]

4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

This is the kind of behaviour that 'brings the game into disrepute', actual breaking of laws :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c3qjkpgengn7o

I'll bet Tonda receives a harsher sentence though....

Some laws just need breaking. 

[skintsaint]

1 hour ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

But you have to trust there is a legitimate plan in place and not just Ben Garner or Adam Lallana standing in. What a shitshow that would be.

With the likes of Matt Le Tissier close to the board you would hope be saying “don’t pull a fast one on the fans”.

Would end up with this guy just to sum the last 5 months up...

[Zorba]

5 hours ago, Turkish said:

A touchline ban for 12 games is very much doable, the work would be done on the training ground with Tonda involved and then you'd just have someone else in charge on the day, Tonda could even communicate with them so i dont really see that as particularly damaging.

Covert communication devices should be avoided though.

[Sir Ralph]

5 hours ago, Turkish said:

A touchline ban for 12 games is very much doable, the work would be done on the training ground with Tonda involved and then you'd just have someone else in charge on the day, Tonda could even communicate with them so i dont really see that as particularly damaging. However as i said before i dont see why he'd get a touchline ban as the offence didn't happen during a game. I can see them coming down hard on him and us and Parsons bleating about how terrible it all is is completely embarrassing. 

How do we know he can still have day to day involvement. Though?

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

9 hours ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Its not a bigger sports story than Spygate. This is just a bit of documentation mistake lawyers will say. Accidentally down loaded something under stress, human rights to decide not to have vaccinations, oversight. 

Isn't it a human right to just stand in a public area with a phone? Just an oversight of that whole spying thing.

[SaintsfanSwindon]

I sure it won’t be, but would be hilarious if he gets a really small fine and nothing else just to see the reaction from the Middlesbrough fans and media. They are so obsessed by this it’s crazy. 

[Harry_SFC]

6 hours ago, Sir Ralph said:

How do we know he can still have day to day involvement. Though?

Well if it's a touchline ban of course he would still be able to have day to day involvement as that just means not being able to manage from the touchline on match days.

A total sporting ban would probably mean no involvement what so ever.

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

All looks like foreshadowing......

Saints are going to be made an example of from the FA point with Tonda getting a lengthy ban.

 

[Jack]

Just catching up with this. Fuck me, Parsons needs removing from his position ASAP, he’s done more than enough damage already and will only make things worse. “We’ve had to pay loads of money in court fees” isn’t going to mitigate anything, it isn’t going to get any sympathy, isn’t going to make the FA change their stance, isn’t going to wash with the fans. His video will do absolutely nothing in a positive sense and can only make things worse IMO. We got caught cheating, don’t then moan about the bills we’ve paid to try to get out of it. 
 

Tonda’s you can kind of understand, just fair enough questions about how he’s feeling and how he wants it over with. Parsons coming out to beg for leniency when the outcome is clearly already decided is pathetic. Need some proper leadership at the top to turn things around for this club, not this muppet. 

[saintant]

1 hour ago, Harry_SFC said:

Well if it's a touchline ban of course he would still be able to have day to day involvement as that just means not being able to manage from the touchline on match days.

A total sporting ban would probably mean no involvement what so ever.

Let's be realistic here - it is not going to be a touchline ban. It will be a number of matches or months total ban and probably the latter.

[die Mannyschaft]

3 hours ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

Isn't it a human right to just stand in a public area with a phone? Just an oversight of that whole spying thing.

I can see a situation where Boro and other clubs spot Tonda communicating with anyone in ground and that gets interpreted as cheating. If he stick 2 fingers for two sugars in coffee that's two at the back. 

He could use race course tick tack

[BallBoy]

I hope for the best but fear the worst.

I do feel strongly that the efl punishment was disproportionate and the 4 points unnecessary. Many neutral football people feel the same.  Even many Boro supporters say enough is enough. I do think that the FA action was not needed and has been delayed far too long. 

It is not possible (bar a personal fine only) that a punishment for Tonda not to be a punishment for the club and fans again but the FA will have to justify their existence. I suspect that the punishment will make it difficult for us to keep a very promising coach. Given time he will be very successful.

As for Phil Parsons. He couldn't sell a used car for a decent price. I do actually agree with most of what he said but sometimes it is better to say nothing.