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Thread: Jo Swinson (and the Death of the Liberal Party)

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    Default Jo Swinson (and the Death of the Liberal Party)

    Would you ???

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    Vote for her? Never in a million years, and I'm a remainer.

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    Men in wheelchairs aren’t really my thing, so I’ll pass thanks.

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    She had my vote.

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    The sad fact is that the liberal democrats are anything but these days. They aren't even interested in a second referendum, they will just reject a democratic vote unless it ticks the "******** to Brexit" box. Instantly alienating about half the voting electorate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint86 View Post
    The sad fact is that the liberal democrats are anything but these days. They aren't even interested in a second referendum, they will just reject a democratic vote unless it ticks the "******** to Brexit" box. Instantly alienating about half the voting electorate.
    To be fair to them they're representing the half that want to remain and make no pretence about it. Least they're not promising cake for everyone whether you want to remain or leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revolution saint View Post
    To be fair to them they're representing the half that want to remain and make no pretence about it. Least they're not promising cake for everyone whether you want to remain or leave.
    Yet they refuse to consider coalition with Labour who have a much softer Brexit position but will happily jump in with the Tories if Boris waves the carrot of power in front of their noses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Yet they refuse to consider coalition with Labour who have a much softer Brexit position but will happily jump in with the Tories if Boris waves the carrot of power in front of their noses.
    No chance that would happen again, especially with Johnson.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    No chance that would happen again, especially with Johnson.
    He would if he needed the MPs to get a working coalition again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    He would if he needed the MPs to get a working coalition again.
    The whole raison d’être of the lib dems is stopping Brexit. There’s no way Johnson could offer them concessions on this without losing the swivels and a large bloc of conservative MPs whose support would also be critical for a working coalition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Yet they refuse to consider coalition with Labour who have a much softer Brexit position but will happily jump in with the Tories if Boris waves the carrot of power in front of their noses.
    Well, clearly this is all guesswork on your part. Any evidence they would go into coalition with the Tories again? Nah, that's cos you made it up. As for Labour there's no evidence they wouldn't (or would) go into a coalition either so that's another thing you just made up. Why would the Lib Dems, who want to remain, go into a coalition with any party that offered a "softer" Brexit though? Would you expect the Brexit party to go into coalition with a softer version of remain? Course you wouldn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    The whole raison d’être of the lib dems is stopping Brexit. There’s no way Johnson could offer them concessions on this without losing the swivels and a large bloc of conservative MPs whose support would also be critical for a working coalition.
    Their previous most-famous vote winning policy was scrapping tuition fees and they soon gave that up. Nick Clegg even got a f*cking knighthood despite his betrayal. Both will figure they can bluster their way round it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revolution saint View Post
    Well, clearly this is all guesswork on your part. Any evidence they would go into coalition with the Tories again? Nah, that's cos you made it up. As for Labour there's no evidence they wouldn't (or would) go into a coalition either so that's another thing you just made up. Why would the Lib Dems, who want to remain, go into a coalition with any party that offered a "softer" Brexit though? Would you expect the Brexit party to go into coalition with a softer version of remain? Course you wouldn't.
    Parties who want power form coalitions, it's not rocket science. She has ruled out any coalition with Jeremy Corbyn but she hasn't with Boris Johnson. My conclusions seem perfectly rational to me based on the evidence presented to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Their previous most-famous vote winning policy was scrapping tuition fees and they soon gave that up. Nick Clegg even got a f*cking knighthood despite his betrayal. Both will figure they can bluster their way round it.
    #headsgone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamesaint View Post
    Would you ???
    No I ****ing wouldn’t.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Their previous most-famous vote winning policy was scrapping tuition fees and they soon gave that up. Nick Clegg even got a f*cking knighthood despite his betrayal. Both will figure they can bluster their way round it.
    I've heard this nonsense trotted out before. Had the lib dems been elected to govern in their own right, and Clegg had subsequently failed to implement that policy, he would rightly have been condemned for betrayal. But they weren't elected, they formed a minority part of a coalition government and obviously didn't have the power or authority to implement their manifesto in full, (I say "obviously", when clearly to some people it clearly isn't.) Clegg did actually get a referendum on proportional representation called, which had it succeeded in changing the voting system would have made liberal policies far more likely to be enacted in the future, and imo getting such a referendum carried out was an achievement in itself. Carping about such an imaginary betrayal can only be seen as criticism for its own sake or obstinate stupidity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty View Post
    I've heard this nonsense trotted out before. Had the lib dems been elected to govern in their own right, and Clegg had subsequently failed to implement that policy, he would rightly have been condemned for betrayal. But they weren't elected, they formed a minority part of a coalition government and obviously didn't have the power or authority to implement their manifesto in full, (I say "obviously", when clearly to some people it clearly isn't.) Clegg did actually get a referendum on proportional representation called, which had it succeeded in changing the voting system would have made liberal policies far more likely to be enacted in the future, and imo getting such a referendum carried out was an achievement in itself. Carping about such an imaginary betrayal can only be seen as criticism for its own sake or obstinate stupidity.
    I agree, the lib/con coalition was the bet government in a very long time. Sadly the lib voters of that time are extremely fickle and will beat them with the tuition fee stick and ignore the positive impacts that had in contributing to a good government in difficult times.

  18. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scotty View Post
    I've heard this nonsense trotted out before. Had the lib dems been elected to govern in their own right, and Clegg had subsequently failed to implement that policy, he would rightly have been condemned for betrayal. But they weren't elected, they formed a minority part of a coalition government and obviously didn't have the power or authority to implement their manifesto in full, (I say "obviously", when clearly to some people it clearly isn't.) Clegg did actually get a referendum on proportional representation called, which had it succeeded in changing the voting system would have made liberal policies far more likely to be enacted in the future, and imo getting such a referendum carried out was an achievement in itself. Carping about such an imaginary betrayal can only be seen as criticism for its own sake or obstinate stupidity.
    Pony. They made out during the campaign that it was a major issue for them. Had they wanted to they could have insisted on it as part of the coalition agreement, it was clearly just a promise they knew they’d never have to deliver. Hell they could even of insisted it went up gradually rather than trebled. They traded it all for ministerial cars.

    The fact Swinson has now said even if leave win a second referendum they’ll not accept it, tells you a lot about them. Bloody charlatans.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Pony. They made out during the campaign that it was a major issue for them. Had they wanted to they could have insisted on it as part of the coalition agreement, it was clearly just a promise they knew they’d never have to deliver. Hell they could even of insisted it went up gradually rather than trebled. They traded it all for ministerial cars.

    The fact Swinson has now said even if leave win a second referendum they’ll not accept it, tells you a lot about them. Bloody charlatans.


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    agree partly - not libdem I know, but Soubry was saying this morning that brexit was a disaster and needed to be put back to the people, but that is not the answer, and a second leave vote would not be helpful to anyone.

    It is clear that if the lib dems can influence such a thing, we would be better to just revoke A50 and stay in - there is no need for another referendum, the first one was advisory, and the government that promised to enact it is long gone, just stick two fingers up at the 17m odd and do what is best for the whole country, stop being such pussies about it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashnats View Post
    agree partly - not libdem I know, but Soubry was saying this morning that brexit was a disaster and needed to be put back to the people, but that is not the answer, and a second leave vote would not be helpful to anyone.

    It is clear that if the lib dems can influence such a thing, we would be better to just revoke A50 and stay in - there is no need for another referendum, the first one was advisory, and the government that promised to enact it is long gone, just stick two fingers up at the 17m odd and do what is best for the whole country, stop being such pussies about it all.
    Why don’t we do the same with GE. Corbyn is clearly a threat to economic prosperity, let’s stop GE’s and let top people that agree with you run the country.


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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty View Post
    Clegg did actually get a referendum on proportional representation called, which had it succeeded in changing the voting system would have made liberal policies far more likely to be enacted in the future, and imo getting such a referendum carried out was an achievement in itself. Carping about such an imaginary betrayal can only be seen as criticism for its own sake or obstinate stupidity.
    That was then. In the meantime, the Party has changed leaders a couple of times and the current one doesn't believe in referenda. She is for holding yet another one on our membership of the EU, but has already stated that she wouldn't respect the result before it has even been held. Within hours of being elected, she can lay claim to being probably the least democratic leader that party has ever had. Well done, young lady.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    That was then. In the meantime, the Party has changed leaders a couple of times and the current one doesn't believe in referenda. She is for holding yet another one on our membership of the EU, but has already stated that she wouldn't respect the result before it has even been held. Within hours of being elected, she can lay claim to being probably the least democratic leader that party has ever had. Well done, young lady.
    Says the member of another party who has just elected the Prime Minister on the basis of 100,000 mostly old white (well, with a hint of gammon) men. I don't neccessarily agree with her position but the contradiction needs pointing out. Congratulations, you've just appointed the most gaffe-prone politician these shores have ever seen, and that's going some with Corbyn around. No buses or false slogans to hide behind now.

    Still, can't wait to see your reaction when he sells you lot out (What's good for Boris has always been more important than any single principle or value - be warned).

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint1977 View Post
    Says the member of another party who has just elected the Prime Minister on the basis of 100,000 mostly old white (well, with a hint of gammon) men. I don't neccessarily agree with her position but the contradiction needs pointing out. Congratulations, you've just appointed the most gaffe-prone politician these shores have ever seen, and that's going some with Corbyn around. No buses or false slogans to hide behind now.

    Still, can't wait to see your reaction when he sells you lot out (What's good for Boris has always been more important than any single principle or value - be warned).
    If you can't see the disparity between the two situations, then I feel sorry for you. I don't recall Boris saying that he wouldn't abide by the decision of any referendum.

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    Les - best to stay hydrated in this weather pal

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Les - best to stay hydrated in this weather pal
    And my advice to you in this weather is to go and lie down in a cool dark place, mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    That was then. In the meantime, the Party has changed leaders a couple of times and the current one doesn't believe in referenda. She is for holding yet another one on our membership of the EU, but has already stated that she wouldn't respect the result before it has even been held. Within hours of being elected, she can lay claim to being probably the least democratic leader that party has ever had. Well done, young lady.
    And Farage said he would have continued to fight for Brexit if the referendum had gone the other way. EU membership is clearly something a issue which has divided the nation and goes way beyond the democratic vote process. Whatever the outcome people will either want to stay or leave and they aren’t going to suck it up if they don’t get their own way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Why don’t we do the same with GE. Corbyn is clearly a threat to economic prosperity, let’s stop GE’s and let top people that agree with you run the country.


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    again, partly agree -we should let top people run our country, rather than barrel scraping.

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    Yes, but you'd get done for non consensual and then not sent to prison because it apposes your human rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    No I ****ing wouldn’t.




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    As if you would even get the opportunity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    As if you would even get the opportunity.
    Wrong sex

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabbage_Face View Post
    Yes, but you'd get done for non consensual and then not sent to prison because it apposes your human rights.
    *opposes

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    I am from Salisbury, one of many Tory strongholds where the only way to try and stop them is to vote LibDem.

    I am stunned that Swinton can be so stupid as to say that she wpuld not form a coalition with Labour, that will alienate a lot of potential Lib Dem voters.

    I pinced my nose and voted LD in the Europeans, despite the last terrible Con-LD coalition, but now she can just do one !

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    Anyone who thinks the Liberals would go into coalition with the Conservatives to allow Brexit must have some degree of brain damage. If Labour came out as Pro Eu there is no doubt they would support them if the numbers took them over the line, being anti Brexit is literally their core reason for existence these days and if they went against it they would soon surpass the 8 MP failure in 2015.

    If it was purely about power then they had the numbers to go into coalition with them again this time around and didn't.

    As much as I dislike Boris Johnson he is playing a political blinder right now, the only way to stop him will be for Labour / Lib Dems / Greens / Plaid Cymru and maybe the SNP to play the FPTP system and refuse to stand against each other in target seats. Lib Dems, PC and Greens have already agreed this, if Labour refuse to work with them the Johnson will get a majority.

    Unfortunately I think Labour want to play chicken with Boris and push him toward the 31st of October to fracture the Conservatives. Meaning they are willing to risk no deal for electoral performance, I would like to be proven wrong through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Pony. They made out during the campaign that it was a major issue for them. Had they wanted to they could have insisted on it as part of the coalition agreement, it was clearly just a promise they knew they’d never have to deliver. Hell they could even of insisted it went up gradually rather than trebled. They traded it all for ministerial cars.

    The fact Swinson has now said even if leave win a second referendum they’ll not accept it, tells you a lot about them. Bloody charlatans.


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    Pony indeed. If you honestly think the conservatives would have worn the scrapping of tuition fees as the price of coalition support then you're deluded. The diluted version you suggest would have been greeted by lib dem fee-scrapping enthusiasts with the same derision as the failure to implement the policy in it's entirety. PR has been seen as the flagship policy of the liberals for far longer than tuition fees, it's ridiculous to argue that Clegg could or should have blanked the tories unless they conceded on the fees issue, that was never going to happen.

  35. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scotty View Post
    PR has been seen as the flagship policy of the liberals for far longer than tuition fees, it's ridiculous to argue that Clegg could or should have blanked the tories unless they conceded on the fees issue, that was never going to happen.

    Why didn’t they insist on having a vote on PR then. It can’t of been that much of a “flagship”. I guess the ministerial limos were just too tempting.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Why didn’t they insist on having a vote on PR then. It can’t of been that much of a “flagship”. I guess the ministerial limos were just too tempting.





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    The Tories agreed to a referendum on PR, which was held, with Tories and Labour campaigning against it, obviously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    The Tories agreed to a referendum on PR, which was held, with Tories and Labour campaigning against it, obviously.

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    Pony.

    There was no referendum on PR.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    There was no referendum on PR.
    Precisely. They fudged the issue and presented AV as the alternative to FPTP, as part of the Conservative's concessions in the coalition negotiations, when the LD's GE manifesto had proposed Siingle Transferable Vote as their preferred method; STV is seen as proportional whilst AV is not.

    Ironically, AV is used to elect the Speaker of the HoC, and the Committee Chairs. STV is used for the election of the Deputy Speakers.
    Last edited by badgerx16; 28-07-2019 at 06:34 PM.

  39. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Pony.

    There was no referendum on PR.


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    Oh no??? I think you are talking pony yet again.

    Read the attached and be educated.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011...ote_referendum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamesaint View Post
    Oh no??? I think you are talking pony yet again.

    Read the attached and be educated.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011...ote_referendum

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamesaint View Post
    Oh no??? I think you are talking pony yet again.

    Read the attached and be educated.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011...ote_referendum
    LD is correct, AV is not viewed as a PR voting system;
    https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/...epresentation/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Pony.

    There was no referendum on PR.


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    I'll stand corrected on the referendum being on STV rather than full-blown PR, but that's pretty irrelevant.

    The key point is that the LibDems couldn't or didn't make it a condition of coalition support that the voting system would be changed, but that there would be a referendum on an alternative, which they got, but was massively defeated thanks to Tory and Labour opposition, who both know which side their bread is buttered.

    The fact remains that our first past the post system sustains the status quo of a two party contest.

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  43. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamesaint View Post
    Oh no??? I think you are talking pony yet again.

    Read the attached and be educated.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011...ote_referendum
    AV is not PR. If you’re going to tell someone to “be educated”, I suggest you get get your facts right, it’s probably not a good idea to use Wikipedia either.


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  44. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post

    The key point is that the LibDems couldn't or didn't make it a condition of coalition support that the voting system would be changed, but that there would be a referendum on an alternative, which they got,
    They could have made a PR vote the condition of being in a coalition, as you said yourself, it was their flagship policy. Of course they didn’t, and in the process set voting reform back years and years. They’re charlatans, who abandoned every principle they had in a rush to get their ministerial cars.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    They could have made a PR vote the condition of being in a coalition, as you said yourself, it was their flagship policy. Of course they didn’t, and in the process set voting reform back years and years. They’re charlatans, who abandoned every principle they had in a rush to get their ministerial cars.




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    You're obsessed with the idea that it was personal ambition and the desire for "ministerial cars" the led the LibDems into coalition.

    It wasn't. The LibDems saw the coalition as a chance to have a moderate government with the minority party being able to control excesses of the major party. Which, in fact, worked well most of the time until the Tories decided to screw their coalition partners. And having done so, landed themselves with the obligation to hold a Brexit referendum that they didn't want. And the rest is becoming history.

    And I'm sufficiently close to the workings of the party to know what I'm talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    You're obsessed with the idea that it was personal ambition and the desire for "ministerial cars" the led the LibDems into coalition.

    It wasn't. The LibDems saw the coalition as a chance to have a moderate government with the minority party being able to control excesses of the major party. Which, in fact, worked well most of the time until the Tories decided to screw their coalition partners. And having done so, landed themselves with the obligation to hold a Brexit referendum that they didn't want. And the rest is becoming history.

    And I'm sufficiently close to the workings of the party to know what I'm talking about.

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    You only have to see what happened after the coalition ended in 2015 i.e. the Tories made student finance more regressive.

  47. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    You're obsessed with the idea that it was personal ambition and the desire for "ministerial cars" the led the LibDems into coalition.
    Course it was personal ambition.


    Voted to increase student fees.
    Voted for bedroom tax
    Voted for benefit cuts
    Voted to reduce welfare
    Voted to cut the Educational Maintenance Allowance

    Are you saying they believed these policies were right for the country? Personally, I did. But I don’t believe for one minute they did.

    They fully deserved the kicking the electorate gave them.







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    5 days in and she’s already following the historic Lib Dem position of saying one thing to one audience,and the complete opposite to another. Tuesday she told the BBC she’d not accept the result of a “people’s vote”, yesterday she told Sky she “absolutely would”.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    5 days in and she’s already following the historic Lib Dem position of saying one thing to one audience,and the complete opposite to another. Tuesday she told the BBC she’d not accept the result of a “people’s vote”, yesterday she told Sky she “absolutely would”.


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    wrong. her messaage is consistent - she believes we should brexit regardless of the outcome of a second referendum. That is not the same as saying we will brexit regardless of the outcome of a second referendum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    Course it was personal ambition.


    Voted to increase student fees.
    Voted for bedroom tax
    Voted for benefit cuts
    Voted to reduce welfare
    Voted to cut the Educational Maintenance Allowance

    Are you saying they believed these policies were right for the country? Personally, I did. But I don’t believe for one minute they did.

    They fully deserved the kicking the electorate gave them.







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    They obviously had to make comprimises, all the above would probably have been more severe if it wasn't for the Lib Dems.

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