Bad referees

[whelk]

PGMOL review all performances and would be good to publish how many decisions in retrospect refs got wrong. Assume there is some threshold when they get relegated to lower leagues?

Could have a league table which would probably show Micheal Oliver, Atkinson, Mariner at top and no doubt Attwell, Friend and Mason at bottom

[angelman]

If they want to be more transparent, maybe give the ref a score. No explanation needed, as that would undermine them too much, but just a score. Yesterday would be 3/10 for example. However that might undermine them too much and put off people becoming refs.

[LGTL]

They’re too protected, accountable to nobody and have a hell of cushy number.

[Golden Balls]

Not much more I can add, he was terrible. Probably worse than he was in our Liverpool game and only marginally better than Peter Walton against Leeds.

 

Redmond (I think) had a Spurs player climbing all over him for a header. Nothing given. 5 minutes later Bednarek goes over a Spurs player, free kick. Stuff like that happened all game. He was so reluctant to give us anything and couldn’t whistle quick enough for them.

 

The Sissoko thing was horrific. Friend already had his yellow card out to book him for the challenge. Sissoko then pushes Redmond and headbutts him and gets nothing more. It was a straight red or minimal 2 yellows. He didn’t give him a red because he’s a cheat.

 

Someone mentioned him being overly friendly with the Spurs players. When Long was down injured, he was laughing and joking with a group of Spurs players. So unprofessional.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Whitey Grandad]

To be fair on City though, Pep said after the game that they voted for VAR and other clubs didn't, it was a terrible decision yes, but VAR would have cleared it up. According to Pep most of the other big clubs voted against it and to be honest you can see why over a season as they tend to get the calls go in their favour more often than not.

 

Is there also not an argument that Sissoko should have got two yellows AND a straight red, his foul that Redmond reacted to was bad, he raked his studs down his achilles, then he pushes him, and then he attempts to headbutt him.

 

The Armstrong one, I am not so sure what the rules there are, but as he said himself he was in if that ball was played square so surely a goal scoring opportunity being denied?.

 

Also how was the Vertonghen one not a foul at least?

You don’t need VAR for that Sterling incident. You just need a referee who understands the Laws of the Game. The linesman called it correctly so I don’t see what the referee could have seen that would have led him to overrule the flag. It doesn’t matter that the ball was kicked onto Sterling’s foot by a defender, if that’s not ‘interfering with play’ then I don’t know what is.

[saintwbu]

The most amazing thing is that Danny Rose, an expert diver and feigner of injuries, after diving over Valery/Romeu quickly got back up and ran off without an appeal as he knew he’d dived and didn’t want to get booked. Yet to his amazement, he got a free kick and got his opponent booked! Unbelievable! They say you can tell by player reactions, and this was as clear as any i’ve seen.

[Saint86]

Last week against Brighton, Huddersfield had a stonewall penalty not given which would have ended that game 1-1. This week knochkart should have been sent off early on for a studs up challenge (goes on to score the winner), and Palace should have had a stonewall penalty given for a foul on tomkins in the area (he chested the ball down, shielded it from a Brighton player behind him, and was pushed/charged to the ground). Shocking decisions that have given Brighton a free 4-5 extra points over two games.... And as an aside, did anyone watch the Newcastle Everton game? What the hell was that ref doing. Pickford avoids the easiest red card in history despite a literal rugby tackle, and an offside goal given for Newcastle at the end. Laughable refs. Not to mention us at United. VAR is needed urgently just to clear up the game.

[Big Ron fan]

You don’t need VAR for that Sterling incident. You just need a referee who understands the Laws of the Game. The linesman called it correctly so I don’t see what the referee could have seen that would have led him to overrule the flag. It doesn’t matter that the ball was kicked onto Sterling’s foot by a defender, if that’s not ‘interfering with play’ then I don’t know what is.

 

I don't know if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread, but I was listening to the radio commentary and they got word (before the final decision was made I think) that the lino had said he flagged for handball by Aguero. The ref (who I accept is generally useless) went over to say that he had a clear view that it wasn't handball, but to check if the lino was sure it wasn't offside and the lino said it wasn't, hence the goal was given. Although they are not meant to do so, you'd have thought the 4th official would have told them it was offside, as he must seen a replay during the long time it took to finally reach a decision.

 

If the above is true, it would mean that in this instance the main fault was with the lino.

[Whitey Grandad]

I don't know if this has been mentioned earlier in the thread, but I was listening to the radio commentary and they got word (before the final decision was made I think) that the lino had said he flagged for handball by Aguero. The ref (who I accept is generally useless) went over to say that he had a clear view that it wasn't handball, but to check if the lino was sure it wasn't offside and the lino said it wasn't, hence the goal was given. Although they are not meant to do so, you'd have thought the 4th official would have told them it was offside, as he must seen a replay during the long time it took to finally reach a decision.

 

If the above is true, it would mean that in this instance the main fault was with the lino.

Thanks for that, but if that is the case then they were both useless. The flag signal that the Lino gave was for offside, not for a foul.

 

The fourth official takes no part in match decisions.

[Tamesaint]

It would be worth keeping an eye tomorrow on the Man U v Watford match as our friend Stuart Attwell is the ref.

 

He has refereed Man U 4 times this season and has given them 3 penalties. One was against us ... yet he refused our penalty shouts.

 

He first refereed Watford 11 years ago when he gave Reading a phantom goal. He has only refereed them 3 times since - and only once at Vicarage Road. I wonder what he will get up to tomorrow.

 

Watford have clearly refused to accept him as ref in their matches. Could we do the same with the likes of Kevin Friend?

[georgeismyname]

It would be worth keeping an eye tomorrow on the Man U v Watford match as our friend Stuart Attwell is the ref.

 

He has refereed Man U 4 times this season and has given them 3 penalties. One was against us ... yet he refused our penalty shouts.

 

He first refereed Watford 11 years ago when he gave Reading a phantom goal. He has only refereed them 3 times since - and only once at Vicarage Road. I wonder what he will get up to tomorrow.

 

Watford have clearly refused to accept him as ref in their matches. Could we do the same with the likes of Kevin Friend?

 

I'd suggest that your last line is a complete fabrication, rather than Watford "clearly refusing" to have him. Unless, of course, you have evidence to the contrary...

[CanadaSaint]

So Kevin Friend, regarded as an utter joke of a referee throughout football - one of the very worst, gets the Cup Final. Lee Mason will probably get it next year.

 

The incompetence of refereeing these days is a direct reflection of the people running the system.

 

"Refereeing will improve when they become full time professionals", my arse.

[trousers]

Lewis Smith. 

What an utter joke.

[Harry_SFC]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

Lewis Smith. 

What an utter joke.

Poor for both sides in general but even worse for us. How that Norwich player escaped a second yellow is beyond me. 

[Patrick Bateman]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

Lewis Smith. 

What an utter joke.

Oh this guy was an utter helmet tonight, awful.

[sockeye]

Ref tonight was smoking crack

[Gloucester Saint]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Lewis Smith. 

What an utter joke.

Reminded me of that total pillock the lower leagues used to get inflicted on them, Brett Huxtable. Both him and Smith shouldn’t be refereeing games at the local rec, and there are plenty on here who subject to fitness who would do a far better job at neutral game. Smith gave the air of a 20 year old newly promoted restaurant manager in a chain joint who got there by brown nosing the area manager. Neither set of players respected him in the slightest.

Huxtable I suspect has gone back to building as not seen his name recently after a series of disaster displays pre-pandemic. I wouldn’t let him anywhere near my house if I lived in your neck of the woods Trousers and you needed work done…

Edited Wednesday at 23:02 by Gloucester Saint

[benjii]

At least he didn’t give them a dodgy pelanty, which I was half-expecting him to do.

The slap-head lino was pretty bad too.

[Miltonaggro]

8 hours ago, trousers said:

Lewis Smith. 

What an utter joke.

You could see exactly how it was going to go from the stands. For about 30 mins he lets virtually every kamikaze challenge from a Norwich clogger go, so them and their manager get emboldened and it gets worse. Saints start giving a little bit backchat so the yellow cards come out. By the end he is shitting himself trying to balance the books and avoid sending two or three Norwich wankers off. Absolute inept bellend! 

[BARCELONASAINT]

one of the worst performances by a ref i have had the unfortunate pleasure of witnessing last night. I was fully expecting him to award Norwich a penalty, he seemed desperate for them to score in extra time.

[Scummer]

I especially liked how fussy he was about the correct position of free kicks and throw ins, which both teams would then totally ignore. And giving their player a warning after two fouls, then letting him do several more without ever booking him.

[Whitey Grandad]

18 minutes ago, BARCELONASAINT said:

one of the worst performances by a ref i have had the unfortunate pleasure of witnessing last night. I was fully expecting him to award Norwich a penalty, he seemed desperate for them to score in extra time.

It was 7 minutes before Peretz decided to go down and make it even longer.

He wasn't particularly bad. Especially if you view his performance through neutral eyes.

[swedish dave]

2 hours ago, Miltonaggro said:

You could see exactly how it was going to go from the stands. For about 30 mins he lets virtually every kamikaze challenge from a Norwich clogger go, so them and their manager get emboldened and it gets worse. Saints start giving a little bit backchat so the yellow cards come out. By the end he is shitting himself trying to balance the books and avoid sending two or three Norwich wankers off. Absolute inept bellend! 

I'm saving a post on this issue as you've almost read my mind.

If he'd booked a few more in the first 20 minutes, it would have steadied the game down and we might have

seen a better quality of football.  At times it was like a Rugby game, with one or two GBH charges ongoing.

In the end, he was booking people for coughing too loud. 

[Sheaf Saint]

10 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It was 7 minutes before Peretz decided to go down and make it even longer.

He wasn't particularly bad. Especially if you view his performance through neutral eyes.

He really was. He had no authority at all and failed to take control of situations. There were three bad challenges in the first 15 minutes, one of which was an obviously cynical pull on Edozie to prevent a breakaway which is as obvious a booking as you'll ever see, but he let them get away with murder. 

Edozie then got pulled by the arm and bundled over in the box - no penalty. Again, a totally blatant foul but nothing given.

Then his failure to produce a card for that moment early in the second half was just bizarre. 

And in the interests of balance, I do also think that Downes could/should have walked when in the second half he fouled their player then reacted badly and pushed him. Ordinarily I'd have had no complaints if he'd got sent off for that, but because of everything that he had let Norwich get away with prior to that he knew he just couldn't.

It was as weak and inept a refereeing display as you will ever see at this level.

[RedArmy]

Slimane should have had a second yellow for the elbow on Jander (I think?) 

The tackle on Matsuki was a borderline red card in the modern game. 

And I still have no idea how Maghoma played the entire game and didn’t get booked. His sole mission in that first half was to kick as many players as possible. 
 

The fact that we ended up with the same amount of yellow cards as they did is laughable. 

 

[S-Clarke]

He was all over the place, he had no control of that game at all.

All Norwich did, as others have said, is kick us and foul us (Edozie especially).

[Ken Tone]

3 hours ago, Scummer said:

I especially liked how fussy he was about the correct position of free kicks and throw ins, which both teams would then totally ignore. And giving their player a warning after two fouls, then letting him do several more without ever booking him.

I don't normally complain about refs (apart from during the match!) but he was a shocker. Totally inconsistent.  Warned some players, booked others, was fussy about some things but not others. Came across as someone who wanted to impose an authority he just hadn't got. 

[Katalinic]

6 minutes ago, Ken Tone said:

I don't normally complain about refs (apart from during the match!) but he was a shocker. Totally inconsistent.  Warned some players, booked others, was fussy about some things but not others. Came across as someone who wanted to impose an authority he just hadn't got. 

100%. Surprised he didn't wear a hi-vis and hold a clipboard.

Edited yesterday at 11:46 by Katalinic

[Lee On Solent Saint]

He was particularly poor, no question. However, Downes and Matsuki got away with a couple of questionable fouls against Coventry. The beauty of no VAR in the Championship.

[Chez]

Can't ever get worked up about refs, Roger Milford apart. They usually make less mistakes than the players. Some games you get decisions, some games you don't.

The only one that ever got under my skin was Mike Dean, who seemed to go out of his way to goad players. I guess like a bobby that is lied to every single day, you get a bit fed up of players moaning and acting like twats and you end up being almost confrontational.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

He was particularly poor, no question. However, Downes and Matsuki got away with a couple of questionable fouls against Coventry. The beauty of no VAR in the Championship.

In the Championship the refs make mistakes, in the Premier League it's VAR that does so.

[Whitey Grandad]

7 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

He really was. He had no authority at all and failed to take control of situations. There were three bad challenges in the first 15 minutes, one of which was an obviously cynical pull on Edozie to prevent a breakaway which is as obvious a booking as you'll ever see, but he let them get away with murder. 

Edozie then got pulled by the arm and bundled over in the box - no penalty. Again, a totally blatant foul but nothing given.

Then his failure to produce a card for that moment early in the second half was just bizarre. 

And in the interests of balance, I do also think that Downes could/should have walked when in the second half he fouled their player then reacted badly and pushed him. Ordinarily I'd have had no complaints if he'd got sent off for that, but because of everything that he had let Norwich get away with prior to that he knew he just couldn't.

It was as weak and inept a refereeing display as you will ever see at this level.

That wasn't a penalty.  Edozie threw himself to the ground. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

In the Championship the refs make mistakes, in the Premier League it's VAR that does so.

Whether you consider them mistakes or not depends on which side you support. 

[Sheaf Saint]

55 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That wasn't a penalty.  Edozie threw himself to the ground. 

The defender had hold of his arm and literally pulled him to the ground to stop him from getting the ball. VAR would 100% have given that.

[RedArmy]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

The defender had hold of his arm and literally pulled him to the ground to stop him from getting the ball. VAR would 100% have given that.

In the world of nobody knowing what is and isn’t a penalty any more that’s about as obvious as they get. 

[Miltonaggro]

10 hours ago, RedArmy said:

Slimane should have had a second yellow for the elbow on Jander (I think?) 

The tackle on Matsuki was a borderline red card in the modern game. 

And I still have no idea how Maghoma played the entire game and didn’t get booked. His sole mission in that first half was to kick as many players as possible. 
 

The fact that we ended up with the same amount of yellow cards as they did is laughable. 

 

After 10 minutes it was clear Clement had fired them up, and specifically to target our left flank, Manning and Edozie the early victims, plus Matsuki as he kept going playing to whistle. if Scienza had played last night i reckon he’d have had a leg broken. Ref was a fucking enabler. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

2 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

The defender had hold of his arm and literally pulled him to the ground to stop him from getting the ball. VAR would 100% have given that.

Yep. Clear penalty. Could see the shirt pull from where I was. Quite how the ref chose to ignore it is anyone's guess 

[trousers]

Larin's shirt was also being pulled when assisting Azaz's goal... I doubt that would have been given either had Azaz not scored (it was just inside the box).

Edited 16 hours ago by trousers

[bugenhagen]

Giving a penalty for the pulling of shirts is not a common thing. Usually not given. The inconcistency with this rule is that they are given sometimes... I would like se them given more often, just to reduce the amount of pulling in the box, but that probably won't happen.

[trousers]

9 minutes ago, bugenhagen said:

Giving a penalty for the pulling of shirts is not a common thing. Usually not given. The inconcistency with this rule is that they are given sometimes... I would like se them given more often, just to reduce the amount of pulling in the box, but that probably won't happen.

It's ridiculous... If a player pulls another player's shirt anywhere else on the pitch the ref blows up every time... In the penalty box... Nada...

[bugenhagen]

27 minutes ago, trousers said:

It's ridiculous... If a player pulls another player's shirt anywhere else on the pitch the ref blows up every time... In the penalty box... Nada...

Being Norwegian I still think back to the pen we got against Brazil in WC98 and how my reaction was equal parts amazed and happy. The shirts back then were huge, and it stood out like a sail in the wind, but even back then I thought: these are never given, and certainly not against a bigger team.

30 years on (including VAR) and they still haven't really changed anything. If you are lucky, you might see one given once in a blue moon.

[Stud mark of doom]

https://x.com/justsaints_/status/2034755539054260682?s=42

A collection of minor Norwich infringements 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

15 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

The defender had hold of his arm and literally pulled him to the ground to stop him from getting the ball. VAR would 100% have given that.

You need to consider what happened between them immediately before that incident. Where two players are holding their own tug of war contest it's a difficult choice for a referee. Usually six of one and half a dozen of the other.

[Whitey Grandad]

41 minutes ago, Stud mark of doom said:

https://x.com/justsaints_/status/2034755539054260682?s=42

A collection of minor Norwich infringements 

 

Only a couple of incidents there that might have been punished but nothing egregious. There are also a couple of cases of our players flinging themselves to the ground in the hope of winning a foul. Manning is a serial offender and would be a much better player if he concentrated on staying on his feet.

[LiberalCommunist]

Interesting to see how he handles his next game. The spot light is on him now. 

[Miltonaggro]

2 hours ago, Stud mark of doom said:

https://x.com/justsaints_/status/2034755539054260682?s=42

A collection of minor Norwich infringements 

 

Damning, and only a small collection.

[ecuk268]

Alfie House made an interesting point on Total Saints Podcast.

Apparently a lot of the Championship-level refs have been moved to the VAR studios as there are not enough Premier League refs available to do VAR assessments.

So they promote refs from Leagues 1 and 2 to the Championship where they often struggle.

[RedArmy]

3 hours ago, Stud mark of doom said:

https://x.com/justsaints_/status/2034755539054260682?s=42

A collection of minor Norwich infringements 

 

I forgot about the high foot, it wasn’t even given as a free kick, crazy. 
 

Im not sure how anyone could argue that Slimane shouldn’t have seen a second yellow for that elbow. 
 

The ones on Edozie are nothing to really cry about, just cynical fouls and he goes down too easily. Their right back got booked eventually. 
 

The same with Manning, nothing OTT. 
 

I think in the premier league the ones on Matsuki and THB would be getting a second look on VAR and at least one of those is a red card. 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by RedArmy

[Whitey Grandad]

27 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

I forgot about the high foot, it wasn’t even given as a free kick, crazy. 
 

Im not sure how anyone could argue that Slimane shouldn’t have seen a second yellow for that elbow. 
 

The ones on Edozie are nothing to really cry about, just cynical fouls and he goes down too easily. Their right back got booked eventually. 
 

The same with Manning, nothing OTT. 
 

I think in the premier league the ones on Matsuki and THB would be getting a second look on VAR and at least one of those is a red card. 

 

I agree.

The high kick was surprising. Difficult to see how close it was from my position and angle but but usually you would try to nip that sort of behaviour in the bud.

I think he tried too hard to keep the game flowing but sometimes a few quick free kicks are needed to let the players know where the tolerance level is set. A referee needs to sense early on when the games should be allowed to flow and when a touch on the brakes is needed. This judgement comes with experience but as the saying goes,

"Good judgment comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgment"

[Sheaf Saint]

3 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You need to consider what happened between them immediately before that incident. Where two players are holding their own tug of war contest it's a difficult choice for a referee. Usually six of one and half a dozen of the other.

All that happened immediately before that was a bit of jostling for position. Edozie got himself ahead of Stacey completely fairly and was favourite to get to the ball first. Stacey just made sure he didn't, and knew exactly what he was doing.

More of a clear penalty than the one we conceded at Cov IMO.