Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[egg]

Just now, Sheaf Saint said:

OK, on the balance of probabilities, would Boro have likely won the tie if Spygate hadn't happened? 

Given the relative form of both teams in the run-in, the fact that we secured the home second leg advantage for the semi final, and that we were strong favourites with the bookies, you would have to say no. 

What's the relevance of the question? We're not being charged with denying them victor, just observing training. How the match actually went has nothing to do with that. 

[Sheaf Saint]

Just now, egg said:

What's the relevance of the question? We're not being charged with denying them victor, just observing training. How the match actually went has nothing to do with that. 

The relevance is to the question of whether or not they have a case to pursue us for compensation if/when we are found guilty.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Sheaf Saint said:

The relevance is to the question of whether or not they have a case to pursue us for compensation if/when we are found guilty.

Oh, we've moved onto that. I'd rather focus on what's actually happening. 

[Sarcoidevo]

Sorry but what kind backwoods shiteful club has a training ground that has open public accessible views? 

Do they stop and accost every Tom Dick & Harry that might wander by and take photos or film?

 

[Turkish]

10 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

OK, on the balance of probabilities, would Boro have likely won the tie if Spygate hadn't happened? 

Given the relative form of both teams in the run-in, the fact that we secured the home second leg advantage for the semi final, and that we were strong favourites with the bookies, you would have to say no. 

One of the arguments seems to be that they had to change their set up because of it. This is absolute bollocks. I watched their game v Millwall and it was almost identical to our first leg. They came flying out the blocks battered them in the first half missed loads of chances and they were done second half, the only difference was Millwall took the chances they got and won on the day. They played 3-4-3 as well do any tactical change would be very minor
 

If this was a club sanctioned spying mission its embarrassingly bad, sending a kid with his phone to a public space is so amateurish it beggars belief any professional outfit would do it. 

[Maggie May]

48 minutes ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

Morning Everybody.

If the Echo had anyone with the finger on the pulse today's headline would be

...A CITY HOLDS IT BREATH

I think the announcement will come today and although i have no inside info I think you can start planning for Saturday.

Sack the sub-editor.

[Saint NL]

The Premier League is proposing that clubs can now settle financial breaches. Perhaps the EFL will give a verdict and then let Saints and Boro settle it themselves. Let Gibbo rattle his can and see what he can get 😂

[Whitey Grandad]

50 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

A few journos made the point that Tonda might face a ban. Boro lot are outwardly convinced this is more than a random turning up on his own 

That lot will convince themselves of anything if they think it's to their advantage. 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That lot will convince themselves of anything if they think it's to their advantage. 

As will we to be fair! 

[die Mannyschaft]

12 minutes ago, Saint NL said:

The Premier League is proposing that clubs can now settle financial breaches. Perhaps the EFL will give a verdict and then let Saints and Boro settle it themselves. Let Gibbo rattle his can and see what he can get 😂

Blimy,  clubs will definitely vote yes to this. Will be good for Man City.

We can offer Boro £32,000 for planting shrubs and trees around thier training ground.

[Dman]

57 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

A few journos made the point that Tonda might face a ban. Boro lot are outwardly convinced this is more than a random turning up on his own 

I think on balance of probability, its not.

Proving that is another thing however.. especially if the evidence is "we have a written statement from a ex-employee who was sacked" and no other clubs have come forward.

How far do the EFL want to take this?

Who would even apply the ban in the event we go up? We've not breached any PL or FA rules

How long would be considered a reasonable ban? 3 games, 3 months, 3 years?

I just can't see it. Just more speculation comong from NE jurnos. 

One thing from this I have learned.... Boro have an incredible amount of leaks. 

[Toadhall Saint]

24 minutes ago, Turkish said:

One of the arguments seems to be that they had to change their set up because of it. This is absolute bollocks. I watched their game v Millwall and it was almost identical to our first leg. They came flying out the blocks battered them in the first half missed loads of chances and they were done second half, the only difference was Millwall took the chances they got and won on the day. They played 3-4-3 as well do any tactical change would be very minor
 

If this was a club sanctioned spying mission its embarrassingly bad, sending a kid with his phone to a public space is so amateurish it beggars belief any professional outfit would do it. 

Martin Keown said he had looked at a few of their previous matches before the 1st leg and had found no discernible differences with the way they set up - like him or hate him he was a professional that played at the highest level and therefore would have more of an idea so Turks I concur with what you say re Millwall.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

Morning Everybody.

If the Echo had anyone with the finger on the pulse today's headline would be

...A CITY HOLDS IT BREATH

I think the announcement will come today and although i have no inside info I think you can start planning for Saturday.

Hoping this is one of those "I do have some inside information but can't overtly disclose that I do, so I'll word it as a hunch instead" type posts...

Edited yesterday at 07:48 by trousers

[Toadhall Saint]

9 minutes ago, Dman said:

I think on balance of probability, its not.

Proving that is another thing however.. especially if the evidence is "we have a written statement from a ex-employee who was sacked" and no other clubs have come forward.

How far do the EFL want to take this?

Who would even apply the ban in the event we go up? We've not breached any PL or FA rules

How long would be considered a reasonable ban? 3 games, 3 months, 3 years?

I just can't see it. Just more speculation comong from NE jurnos. 

One thing from this I have learned.... Boro have an incredible amount of leaks. 

As did the titanic and looked what happened there.

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

 Boro lot are outwardly convinced this is more than a random turning up on his own 

Of course they are. Not sure how they would have the slightest clue unless they are privy to the inner workings of SFC.

[hypochondriac]

Hmm. Football Martin on the second tier podcast this morning saying that "let's be honest Tonda will have known and him and Spors will lose their jobs." Seems odd to be so definitive about it. 

[Toadhall Saint]

14 minutes ago, Dman said:

I think on balance of probability, its not.

Proving that is another thing however.. especially if the evidence is "we have a written statement from a ex-employee who was sacked" and no other clubs have come forward.

How far do the EFL want to take this?

Who would even apply the ban in the event we go up? We've not breached any PL or FA rules

How long would be considered a reasonable ban? 3 games, 3 months, 3 years?

I just can't see it. Just more speculation comong from NE jurnos. 

One thing from this I have learned.... Boro have an incredible amount of leaks. 

I think the reason the other clubs have not come forward is that they do not want to out themselves in the cross hairs of outside scrutiny - why would they?

[23rdSaint]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Hmm. Football Martin on the second tier podcast this morning saying that "let's be honest Tonda will have known and him and Spors will lose their jobs." Seems odd to be so definitive about it. 

Since when are we treating Football Martin as a credible source?

[hypochondriac]

Just now, 23rdSaint said:

Since when are we treating Football Martin as a credible source?

Who said I was? I just think it's an odd thing for him to say. 

[Toadhall Saint]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Hmm. Football Martin on the second tier podcast this morning saying that "let's be honest Tonda will have known and him and Spors will lose their jobs." Seems odd to be so definitive about it. 

They need to prove it. Just need to look an org chart to cast doubt on that as there is probably 2-3 levels from Salt to Tonda and a further one from Tonda to Spors.

[Arjen Robben]

34 minutes ago, Turkish said:

One of the arguments seems to be that they had to change their set up because of it. This is absolute bollocks. I watched their game v Millwall and it was almost identical to our first leg. They came flying out the blocks battered them in the first half missed loads of chances and they were done second half, the only difference was Millwall took the chances they got and won on the day. They played 3-4-3 as well do any tactical change would be very minor
 

If this was a club sanctioned spying mission its embarrassingly bad, sending a kid with his phone to a public space is so amateurish it beggars belief any professional outfit would do it. 

I agree if this has been club sanctioned then it's embarrassingly bad, Equally though if we get exonerated, its embarrassingly bad for Middlesborough, and they should get the book thrown at them. 

 It's really hard to believe though that they would have acted on a knee jerk reaction or we would have authorised the spying.

As i have said previously something just smells off about the whole situation.

[23rdSaint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Who said I was? I just think it's an odd thing for him to say. 

It is. But he's on a clickbait podcast who've treated all speculation to date as fact. From the little I've seen of him, he's hyperbolic and partial to clicks himself. 

[Dman]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Hmm. Football Martin on the second tier podcast this morning saying that "let's be honest Tonda will have known and him and Spors will lose their jobs." Seems odd to be so definitive about it. 

No chance the club sack either Spors or Tonda, unless they are essentially made to. 

[Saint_clark]

41 minutes ago, Saint NL said:

The Premier League is proposing that clubs can now settle financial breaches. Perhaps the EFL will give a verdict and then let Saints and Boro settle it themselves. Let Gibbo rattle his can and see what he can get 😂

Absolutely corrupt. So wealthy clubs can pay a bribe to the authorities to be allowed to spend beyond what the rules allow on transfers and wages. 

[Stud mark of doom]

Just a thought - is there a possibility that those at the club didn’t know there was a rule against this (seemingly unique EFL and arbitrary time limit). 
 

The senior guys are from overseas. We were in the prem (where it’s fine) when the rule came in, and for most of the time since). Also sounds as if it might be standard practice to ignore it for other clubs.

[Saint_clark]

9 minutes ago, 23rdSaint said:

Since when are we treating Football Martin as a credible source?

He's literally got football in his name, how much more credible can you get?

[Dman]

8 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

I think the reason the other clubs have not come forward is that they do not want to out themselves in the cross hairs of outside scrutiny - why would they?

I also think its probably very unlikley that we would have stepped onto private land (or shall I say not publicly accessible) to spy. Therefore, obtaining any CCTV or evidence might prove to be too much hassel for what will likley be very small gains. 

[Saint Garrett]

1 minute ago, Dman said:

No chance the club sack either Spors or Tonda, unless they are essentially made to. 

Will be fascinating who the "order" has come from if it has come from anyone. (I'm not sure an intern would randomly go up to boro on his own accord).

One of the only "leaks" thats come out of saints seems to be that the board / tech director were absolutely seething that this had happened, which rules out Spors & team. 

That leaves this on Tonda's wider team.  Whether Tonda knew about it or not, who knows. But if it turns out he is involved, then the club will have to do the "right" thing and sack him whether they want to or not. Personally if the manager is involved its pretty horrific.

[Saint_clark]

Just now, Saint Garrett said:

Will be fascinating who the "order" has come from if it has come from anyone. (I'm not sure an intern would randomly go up to boro on his own accord).

One of the only "leaks" thats come out of saints seems to be that the board / tech director were absolutely seething that this had happened, which rules out Spors & team. 

That leaves this on Tonda's wider team.  Whether Tonda knew about it or not, who knows. But if it turns out he is involved, then the club will have to do the "right" thing and sack him whether they want to or not. Personally if the manager is involved its pretty horrific.

If Tonda is involved I think they'll announce there will be an internal review following the play off final, already knowing they'll get rid of him. But to sack our manager just before the final would be so self destructive.

[Arjen Robben]

2 minutes ago, Dman said:

I also think its probably very unlikley that we would have stepped onto private land (or shall I say not publicly accessible) to spy. Therefore, obtaining any CCTV or evidence might prove to be too much hassel for what will likley be very small gains. 

It's very publicly accessible , its a hotel and golf course , Where Salt is alledgedly standing is next to a car park.

 

[Dman]

18 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

Will be fascinating who the "order" has come from if it has come from anyone. (I'm not sure an intern would randomly go up to boro on his own accord).

One of the only "leaks" thats come out of saints seems to be that the board / tech director were absolutely seething that this had happened, which rules out Spors & team. 

That leaves this on Tonda's wider team.  Whether Tonda knew about it or not, who knows. But if it turns out he is involved, then the club will have to do the "right" thing and sack him whether they want to or not. Personally if the manager is involved its pretty horrific.

Perhaps I have less intregrity than you, but I really do not think this is a big deal at all. 

I acknowledge its breaking the rules and therefore constitutes to 'cheating' by definition, but I am putting this in the same level of cheating as diving, wasting time etc. 

The fact this is only a rule in the EFL and nowehere else in the world demonstrates the level of (or shall I say lack of) seriousness around the issue. 

Talk of sacking the manager is ludicrous. 

Edited yesterday at 08:25 by Dman

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, Dman said:

Perhaps I have less intregrity than you, but I really do not think this is a big deal at all. 

I acknowledge its breaking the rules and therefore constitues to 'cheating' by definition, but I am putting this in the same level of cheating as diving, wasting time etc. 

The fact this is only a rule in the EFL and nowehere else in the world demonstrates the level of (or shall I say lack of) seriousness around the issue. 

Talk of sacking the manager is ludicrous. 

It's more around the damage to the clubs reputation than anything else. This will affect potential sponsors etc.

[shirleysfc]

Boro’s odd of getting promoted have dropped quite a bit this morning on the Betfair Exchange…

[aintforever]

50 minutes ago, Saint NL said:

The Premier League is proposing that clubs can now settle financial breaches. Perhaps the EFL will give a verdict and then let Saints and Boro settle it themselves. Let Gibbo rattle his can and see what he can get 😂

So they pass that next month, THEN they charge Man City.  

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, 23rdSaint said:

It is. But he's on a clickbait podcast who've treated all speculation to date as fact. From the little I've seen of him, he's hyperbolic and partial to clicks himself. 

It's about 15 minutes into the podcast so not sure it's said for clicks. I'm just not sure why someone who is a fan would make such definitive statements. Bit bizarre to be honest. 

[Dman]

Just now, Saint_clark said:

It's more around the damage to the clubs reputation than anything else. This will affect potential sponsors etc.

You reckon? Come August, it'll all be forgotten.

[AlexLaw76]

When did the players travel up there for the first leg?

where they (and staff) already up there when this happened?

[qwertyell]

My two pennies, for better or worse: we'll get what we get and deserve it.

I don't particularly care about the "morality" of spying on training, nor consider it cheating in any serious sense. 24 hours earlier it wasn't. In nearly every other league it isn't. It's not four Serie A clubs getting caught match fixing. It's not Marseille bribing Valenciennes to throw a game to help them win the title. It's not buying referees. It's not systematic doping. It's not financial doping. 

In just about any sport, such things would constitute flagrant, indefensible cheating. 

Some dipshit wandering around in plain sight waving his phone about shouldn't really be mentioned in the same breath. In the grand "cheating" pantheon it is probably akin to tapping up, in the sense that it's not allowed (in this particular league at least), but everyone does it, and it's seldom punished. 

But like tapping up, if you're stupid enough to get caught by being as subtle as a brick, that's on you. We can't blame anyone else for the situation we find ourselves in. Whether we were trying to be a bit cheeky, or devilishly underhanded, the execution was so inept and slapdash that someone needs a good kick. 

There's no point in whinging about Boro or their fans. This is our mess, and regardless of the outcome today (or tomorrow, or some other time, pending an appeal), is such an idiotic own goal for the sake of minimal benefit at best - if we really believed spying on Boro's training would give us a competitive edge, surely we could've sent someone other than the world's most conspicuous peeping Tom.

Anyway, there's nothing we supporters can do. The club has dropped one bollock after another over the past few years - add it to the list.

But if our season ends here, what a dumb way to go. 

Edited yesterday at 08:17 by qwertyell

[Saint_clark]

1 minute ago, Dman said:

You reckon? Come August, it'll all be forgotten.

If there's one thing you can praise Boro for in this it's that their antics have had the desired effect, it's being treated as a much more serious offence than it actually is by the people who matter in the eyes of sponsors - the media. 

[sockeye]

No shade to Salt but I wish the club would be a bit more discerning with their junior hires. I don’t know why we are recruiting people whose last jobs were at garden centres or pet sanctuaries

Edited yesterday at 08:18 by sockeye
grammar

[DellBlockH]

4 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

If Tonda is involved I think they'll announce there will be an internal review following the play off final, already knowing they'll get rid of him. But to sack our manager just before the final would be so self destructive.

 If, and it's a big if, Tonda had knowledge of the alleged spy, or even sent him, there could be mitigating factors such as genuinely not knowing it is against the rules. Or it could be a deliberate act, despite knowing the rules. He should, perhaps, be reprimanded and warned not to do it again. But to sack the most successful manager we've had in years, with the huge potential he has, would be way over the top. As Dman says below, despite the huge press backlash, the offence itself is no worse than diving, feigning injury or fouling an attacker clean through on goal. The last of these attracts a red card and a three match ban. Are you really saying Tonda should be treated more harshly?

[Harry_SFC]

Football Martin is an absolute weapon, wouldn't listen to anything he says. 

[shirleysfc]

6 minutes ago, shirleysfc said:

Boro’s odd of getting promoted have dropped quite a bit this morning on the Betfair Exchange…

And they’ve now gone back up again

[Saint_clark]

Just now, shirleysfc said:

And they’ve now gone back up again

How are they doing now?

[LiberalCommunist]

End this today so football can happily match towards its next scandal, which is right around the corner. 

[sadoldgit]

8 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

It's more around the damage to the clubs reputation than anything else. This will affect potential sponsors etc.

I don’t know. Makers of binoculars, surveillance equipment and iPhones will be queuing up to sponsor us.

[Dman]

4 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

If there's one thing you can praise Boro for in this it's that their antics have had the desired effect, it's being treated as a much more serious offence than it actually is by the people who matter in the eyes of sponsors - the media. 

Is it though? Other than boro fans & jurnos who've been employeed by the club to blow this up, the general feeling I'm getting is "it's a daft thing to do, fine them and move on". 

I think them releasing the photo was an own goal. It's made it a bit of a joke over anything serious. 

You get 2/3 clubs a year breaching FFP rules (cheating), how many of those suffer a knock on sponsorship impact?

[Fabrice29]

11 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It's about 15 minutes into the podcast so not sure it's said for clicks. I'm just not sure why someone who is a fan would make such definitive statements. Bit bizarre to be honest. 

He’s got you spreading his name and the podcast he’s on and telling everyone where in the video we can find it. Content creators want you to engage with their content and to engage others. Job done. 

[sadoldgit]

19 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

If Tonda is involved I think they'll announce there will be an internal review following the play off final, already knowing they'll get rid of him. But to sack our manager just before the final would be so self destructive.

Sacking him would be ridiculous and isn’t going to happen.

[VectisSaint]

20 minutes ago, Stud mark of doom said:

Just a thought - is there a possibility that those at the club didn’t know there was a rule against this (seemingly unique EFL and arbitrary time limit). 
 

The senior guys are from overseas. We were in the prem (where it’s fine) when the rule came in, and for most of the time since). Also sounds as if it might be standard practice to ignore it for other clubs.

The time limit is not arbitrary, it is specifically about MD-3 when training tends to be about tactics etc. Also ignorance is no defence.