#Spygate

[James G]

It's like those experiments they do in psychology, if you line up 12 people, and get 10 of them to do something, the other two copy of the actions of the other 10. Group psychology 

By putting stories everywhere and getting their cult fans to post cheat cheat cheat, other people are swayed into that narrative.

Alot of the early conversation was mild, people were either non opinionated, or posting jokes. We're now seeing alot of those people getting sucked in by their campaign probably without realising

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, StrangelyBrown said:

Gibson is a cunt and has form for this sort of bollocks. Can't wait until something comes out about his club.

All he needed to do is build a fence FFS! Talk about not taking responsibility for his own ineptitude.

Whilst it doesn’t stop it being an EFL rule breach, the sheer openness of the training ground considering they’ve been in the PL previously FFS will be a significant mitigation against them and him. 

[Farmer Saint]

1 minute ago, James G said:

It's like those experiments they do in psychology, if you line up 12 people, and get 10 of them to do something, the other two copy of the actions of the other 10. Group psychology 

By putting stories everywhere and getting their cult fans to post cheat cheat cheat, other people are swayed into that narrative.

Alot of the early conversation was mild, people were either non opinionated, or posting jokes. We're now seeing alot of those people getting sucked in by their campaign probably without realising

It's how Brexit happened.

[SNSUN]

3 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Yeah. 3 point deduction could put us in 20th in the Premier League again, rather than in 20th.

That's one fluke win against a big boy. We're coming for you Arsenal. 😆

A 3 point deduction in the Championship over a 46 game season and a 3 point deduction in the Premier League over a 38 game season is also not a like-for-like punishment.

[SNSUN]

3 minutes ago, James G said:

It's like those experiments they do in psychology, if you line up 12 people, and get 10 of them to do something, the other two copy of the actions of the other 10. Group psychology 

By putting stories everywhere and getting their cult fans to post cheat cheat cheat, other people are swayed into that narrative.

Alot of the early conversation was mild, people were either non opinionated, or posting jokes. We're now seeing alot of those people getting sucked in by their campaign probably without realising

• I was going with "empty vessels make the most noise" but your explanation is good too. 😁

[Gloucester Saint]

17 minutes ago, StrangelyBrown said:

Gibson is a cunt and has form for this sort of bollocks. Can't wait until something comes out about his club.

All he needed to do is build a fence FFS! Talk about not taking responsibility for his own ineptitude.

Gibson extorted a settlement out of Mel Morris and Derby for PSR breaches https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60350198

Edited 1 hour ago by Gloucester Saint

[Suhari]

1 hour ago, St Chalet said:

You have to feel for the lad Will Salt. A huge amount of media pressure on some very young shoulders and must be worried about where this leaves his career. 
 

Boro have hung him out to dry. Utter *unts. 

He'll be fine. Plays it right he'd make a fortune from Only Fans.

[Badger]

21 minutes ago, saint francis said:

Whatever the outcome this is an unnecessary embarrassment to the club.  

This is it in a nutshell. Needless and unnecessary, if we knowingly sanctioned it then it was high risk for little benefit.

Hope we move on quickly

[Thripp87]

1 hour ago, JustinR said:

That loophole has been closed now. The two leagues have a reciprocal arrangement- points deductions from one carry over to the next

Starting in the Prem on minus might mean we at least beat the Derby record next season then. 🤣

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

What would stop any member of the public from booking a hotel room, taking a stroll in the hotel grounds and sending training notes to Hull if Boro are in the final?

Nothing

So Boro clearly can't be too bothered about sensitive tactical information being in the public gaze.

Christ you're still missing the point aren't you. Hull would be in breach of the rule if they didn't immediately report that happening to the EFL and to Boro. 

[Patches O Houlihan]

3 hours ago, Saint NL said:

According to the loons on the Boro forum, they believe they have a paper trail that includes the following clubs:

Boro, Millwall, Bristol city, Norwich, Hull and Coventry.

Did the dates correspond with our away matches against them?!
The plot thickens

[Gloucester Saint]

1 minute ago, Patches O Houlihan said:

Did the dates correspond with our away matches against them?!
The plot thickens

That’s not ‘RAF’ Alfie.

Toodlepip!

[skintsaint]

3 hours ago, Saint NL said:

According to the loons on the Boro forum, they believe they have a paper trail that includes the following clubs:

Boro, Millwall, Bristol city, Norwich, Hull and Coventry.

Thought they said it was Ipswich and Wrexham. Can't keep their stories straight.

[Turkish]

[Miltonaggro]

32 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

there was a poster commenting on the Boro site, who is in the law profession (apparently). This person claimed that the chances/likelihood of Boro replacing Saints in the final sit around 0%

Yes, they can’t afford me to tell them that! 😊

[stknowle]

Fuck me this thing is really starting to boil my piss. It’s so PATHETIC on so many levels.

The fact we did it in the first place (if we did) when the gains are so marginal - PATHETIC

The fact we were so amateurish about it that we got caught - PATHETIC

The fact that ‘BORO are apparently so aggrieved about it - PATHETIC

The fact that they are seriously clinging to the hope that this all ends up in them being reinstated - PATHETIC

The fact that if they’re so precious about such matters they don’t even have a fence around their training pitch to avoid any possibility of it happening  - PATHETIC

The fact that if we’d been caught doing it 1 minute before the 72 hr exclusion period it would’ve all been fine but 1 minute later then not - PATHETIC

The fact it’s all over the media and being ‘seriously’ talked about that we may get expelled - PATHETIC

The fact that our post match press conferences have been ruined by questions about this fucking stupid episode whilst the excellent football matches have been basically overlooked - PATHETIC

The fact that I feel so annoyed that I need to articulate my anger by capitalising the word PATHETIC for emphasis - PATHETIC.

The fact that I can’t work out how to add additional emphasis by bolding and capitalising the word PATHETIC on my twat of an iPhone - PATHETIC.

Enough now, I just want this disagreeably PATHETIC issue to fuck off so I can enjoy looking forward us hopefully battering Hull. UTS.

 

[kwsaint]

I genuinely think a lot of this hype is because there’s sod all other football on right now. Relegation is basically sorted from the PL and the title is as well.

By the World Cup this will all be forgotten.

That said, I might not wear a Southampton top around Middlesbrough in the future.

Though I’d rather go to Tehran than Middlesbrough.

[kwsaint]

1 minute ago, stknowle said:

Fuck me this thing is really starting to boil my piss. It’s so PATHETIC on so many levels.

The fact we did it in the first place (if we did) when the gains are so marginal - PATHETIC

The fact we were so amateurish about it that we got caught - PATHETIC

The fact that ‘BORO are apparently so aggrieved about it - PATHETIC

The fact that they are seriously clinging to the hope that this all ends up in them being reinstated - PATHETIC

The fact that if they’re so precious about such matters they don’t even have a fence around their training pitch to avoid any possibility of it happening  - PATHETIC

The fact that if we’d been caught doing it 1 minute before the 72 hr exclusion period it would’ve all been fine but 1 minute later then not - PATHETIC

The fact it’s all over the media and being ‘seriously’ talked about that we may get expelled - PATHETIC

The fact that our post match press conferences have been ruined by questions about this fucking stupid episode whilst the excellent football matches have been basically overlooked - PATHETIC

The fact that I feel so annoyed that I need to articulate my anger by capitalising the word PATHETIC for emphasis - PATHETIC.

The fact that I can’t work out how to add additional emphasis by bolding and capitalising the word PATHETIC on my twat of an iPhone - PATHETIC.

Enough now, I just want this disagreeably PATHETIC issue to fuck off so I can enjoy looking forward us hopefully battering Hull. UTS.

 

If you need a hand using an iPhone, I know a guy…

[Gloucester Saint]

Just now, kwsaint said:

Though I’d rather go to Tehran than Middlesbrough.

The government are missing a trick - send the boat refugees arriving to Middlesbrough - they’ll be desperate to leave the UK again. 

[Miltonaggro]

14 minutes ago, Suhari said:

He'll be fine. Plays it right he'd make a fortune from Only Fans.

He’ll need to invest in a higher res camera!

[Adman]

1 hour ago, Nolan said:

At the moment I believe someone at Boro has massively breached GDPR rules.

Information commissioner wouldn't like this, surely.

 

Great point. Shall we report the Hotel. Because why the fuck not.

[kwsaint]

3 minutes ago, Adman said:

Great point. Shall we report the Hotel. Because why the fuck not.

Yeah I’d chip in a tenner for miltonaggro to lead that charge.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, St Chalet said:

Yeah. Bye bye.

FFS... I was nailed on to win the sweepstake!

[Holmes_and_Watson]

12 minutes ago, Gloucester Saint said:

The government are missing a trick - send the boat refugees arriving to Middlesbrough - they’ll be desperate to leave the UK again. 

I know when I've been there, I've been desperate to leave. Grim place.

[St Chalet]

For full disclosure, I am a Houston Astros fan, we will get thorugh this....

[SaintlyAnd]

Some bits from a chat this evening with a friend who was an analyst for various teams over the last few years, his take on things and what I can remember he said (I may paraphrase)…

- “observing” other teams training is very common and easy outside the EPL

- the 72 hour rule is something no-one worries about

- a lot of analysts know each other (or at least know of each other) across teams as they move around a lot, so the “observing” is generally tolerated as a lot of teams do it - he said something about it helps them in their careers not to say anything as it benefits them all to do it (his words were “rite of passage as an analyst”) and impress people with their work (still not sure I understood that part)

- its very unlikely the coaches/manager are involved in getting analysts to do this and break rules. He said the manager could be aware it probably happens but a junior analyst/intern would be told what to do from within the analysis department, and then turn that data/information into what the coaches want to know about. 

I’m sure there were some other points but the above were the interesting points. 

He said he feels for the intern as he’s getting hung out for something thats very common. 

[Farmer Saint]

31 minutes ago, stknowle said:

Fuck me this thing is really starting to boil my piss. It’s so PATHETIC on so many levels.

The fact we did it in the first place (if we did) when the gains are so marginal - PATHETIC

The fact we were so amateurish about it that we got caught - PATHETIC

The fact that ‘BORO are apparently so aggrieved about it - PATHETIC

The fact that they are seriously clinging to the hope that this all ends up in them being reinstated - PATHETIC

The fact that if they’re so precious about such matters they don’t even have a fence around their training pitch to avoid any possibility of it happening  - PATHETIC

The fact that if we’d been caught doing it 1 minute before the 72 hr exclusion period it would’ve all been fine but 1 minute later then not - PATHETIC

The fact it’s all over the media and being ‘seriously’ talked about that we may get expelled - PATHETIC

The fact that our post match press conferences have been ruined by questions about this fucking stupid episode whilst the excellent football matches have been basically overlooked - PATHETIC

The fact that I feel so annoyed that I need to articulate my anger by capitalising the word PATHETIC for emphasis - PATHETIC.

The fact that I can’t work out how to add additional emphasis by bolding and capitalising the word PATHETIC on my twat of an iPhone - PATHETIC.

Enough now, I just want this disagreeably PATHETIC issue to fuck off so I can enjoy looking forward us hopefully battering Hull. UTS.

 

If you could use one word to summarise the situation?

[Crab Lungs]

[Addict54]

15 minutes ago, St Chalet said:

For full disclosure, I am a Houston Astros fan, we will get thorugh this....

Well that’s a bit of a curve ball but no need to bang on about it 

[sadoldgit]

49 minutes ago, Suhari said:

He'll be fine. Plays it right he'd make a fortune from Only Fans.

I think he has blown his chances of a job with MI5 though.

[leeham_69]

6 hours ago, Miltonaggro said:

Apologies for the war and peace post chaps – bear with or scroll past.  For the last week I have been trying to provide a steer on here as to why I think this silly episode will be concluded with a fine (in the region of £200k) and / or a possible future points deduction (though if I were advising Saints I would appeal this).  Simply that talk of forfeit and bans opens a legal can of worms that is well beyond the remit and scope of both the EFL and / or Middlesbrough FC.

The best way to get your head around it is to think about intervention via the regulator in any other lucrative industry away from the emotion attached to sports.  If a rule imposed by the regulator is wildly out of proportion to any complaint of unfair advantage, the business or individual still has full recourse to law.  Be aware that in any field, a regulatory rule or penalty cannot trump or bypass the law.  My practice area doesn’t extend to sports law, but there is some allied knowledge of commercial litigation, which is what will commence if the EFL act rashly. 

This lunchtime I managed to have a chat with an old friend who does work in sports / commercial law and we agreed on what would likely happen in the event of the EFL overstepping.  I had a spare hour after this (might write a casenote on if it ever goes to law), so thought I would post this on here to put fellow Saints fans minds at rest.  This is only a reflective opinion, and you can never guarantee outcome of course – its complicated as they say - but it’s a measured / informed opinion at least:

Assuming Saints reasonable position is that a junior analyst did record half an hour of MFC’s training, without the Board’s knowledge, and the club are currently undertaking a review of this. 

Let’s say the EFL announce that they will fine and ban SFC from the Play off final, causing the club to miss out on promotion to the EPL.  Reacting to the white noise of the past week.

1. Targets for litigation by SFC

Should the EFL Independent Disciplinary Commission rule to expel Southampton FC from the Championship Play-off Final against Hull City on 23 May, Southampton should immediately file a claim in the King's Bench Division of the High Court naming two distinct parties:

A) Primary Defendant: The English Football League (EFL)

Cause of Action: Breach of Contract, Arbitrary Exercise of Disciplinary Power, and Procedural Unfairness.

Basis: The EFL Regulations form a binding contract between member clubs and the league. Southampton will challenge any expedited expulsion as an ultra vires (meaning beyond their powers) abuse of power that violates the league's own regulatory framework.

B) Secondary Defendant / Interested Party: Middlesbrough FC

Procedural Joinder: Middlesbrough must be formally joined to the High Court action as an Interested Party under Civil Procedure Rules (CPR), as it is likely that they are actively preparing to take Southampton's place at Wembley (as stated in recent MFC communications).

Tort Claims: Direct counterclaims for Injurious Falsehood and Defamation regarding public statements made by Middlesbrough personnel (e.g., Hellberg publicly labelling Southampton "cheats"), which have severely damaged the club's corporate reputation and stock value before a formal verdict has been rendered.

2. Legal position and precedent

Southampton's legal counsel will likely use four distinct arguments to block an expulsion from the play-offs, these are to use the Leeds 2019 case, employment law isolation, breach of natural justice, and the good old American Cyanamid principles.

i) Deviation from Established League Precedent (Leeds United Spygate 2019) In 2019, Marcelo Bielsa admitted to spying on Derby County and every other Championship opponent. The EFL established a clear, binding precedent by issuing a £200,000 fine and a formal reprimand. Escalating the penalty to total competition expulsion for a first-time alleged offense by an analyst is a gross violation of contractual consistency and proportionality under English sports law (Bradley v Jockey Club).

ii) The Rogue Agent Defence: Southampton's executive board will likely submit immediate formal statements confirming they never authorised, funded, or evaluated any illicitly filmed footage. Under standard employment principles, a club cannot face strict liability capital sporting punishment (expulsion) for an individual first-team analyst acting independently outside his explicit operational mandate – their must be a chain of command / causation in terms of proof.

iii) Breach of Natural Justice via Compressed Timelines: The EFL's decision to bypass the standard 14-day response period to force a hearing before 23 May actively denies Southampton its right to a fair trial (McInnes v Onslow-Fane). Depriving a club of adequate time to conduct a comprehensive internal review while Middlesbrough introduces unverified third-party "CCTV history" constitutes a fatal procedural flaw.

iv) Irreparable Harm Threshold (American Cyanamid Co). Southampton easily satisfies the High Court test for an Urgent Interim Injunction (this is absolutely key). The financial upside of reaching the Premier League is universally valued at around £200 million (ballpark extreme financial losses). If the EFL removes Southampton from the final illegally, no monetary damages paid by the league months later can adequately compensate for the permanent loss of global prestige, TV broadcasting distributions, and elite sporting merit. Essentially, were the court to find for SFC, Saints could effectively bankrupt the EFL and Middlesbrough FC.

3. Potential damages and remedies

If the EFL Independent Disciplinary Commission issues a sporting expulsion or points deduction before the weekend of the play-off final, Southampton must seek the following cumulative judicial remedies:

A) Pre-Match Urgent Remedies (Wembley Focus):

Urgent Interim High Court Injunction: An emergency judicial order freezing the Championship Play-off Final scheduled for 23 May, or alternatively ordering the EFL to permit Southampton to play Hull City as scheduled, until a full commercial court trial evaluates the legality of the charge.

Final Judicial Declaration: A formal court order declaring that the EFL Independent Disciplinary Commission's penalty is null, void, contractually invalid, and ultra vires.

Injunction Against Disparagement (Middlesbrough): An injunction ordering Middlesbrough executives and coaching staff to immediately cease public character assassinations and "cheating" accusations online and in press conferences until the formal legal channel has concluded.

B) Post-Match Monetary Damages (speculative as I don’t think EFL are that stupid)

£200 Million Promotion Expectation Damages (From the EFL): If the High Court denies the injunction but later finds the EFL breached its contract by expelling the club, the EFL will be liable for the full, audited £200 million loss representing missing out on the Premier League's central broadcasting revenue, parachute payments, and global commercial rights.

Reliance and Operational Damages (From the EFL): Full recovery of lost ticket sales for Wembley, pre-booked corporate travel packages, stadium concession refunds, and pre-negotiated club sponsorship bonuses tied to reaching the final.

Tortious Special Damages (From Middlesbrough FC): Punitive financial damages if Southampton can prove that Middlesbrough’s public agitating directly caused major commercial sponsors or e.g. shirt partners to execute ‘morality clauses’ and pull funding out of the club.

4. Advice to SFC on taking action if the EFL goes nuclear (I would imagine that all of this is already well in motion)

Club solicitors Paris Smith LLP to instruct specialist sports KC in terms of retention for the action.

Submit Response of Non-Authorisation: Issue the club’s formal observations to the EFL, officially isolating the analyst's actions from board knowledge.

Prepare the High Court Application Papers: Pre- draft the American Cyanamid skeleton argument to ensure that if the Independent Commission rules against the club court injunction papers can be served within two hours.

So that’s my legal tuppence in terms of shutting out the white-noise, hope it helps in terms of perspective.  Much sharper people that I will already be on board, and SFC seem to be acting with extreme professionalism and strategic edge.  Short advice to the Boro brains trust would be to move on, or be careful what you wish for.

Brilliant. Post this on the Boro forum, you’ll get death threats 😆

[trousers]

9 minutes ago, SaintlyAnd said:

Some bits from a chat this evening with a friend who was an analyst for various teams over the last few years, his take on things and what I can remember he said (I may paraphrase)…

- “observing” other teams training is very common and easy outside the EPL

- the 72 hour rule is something no-one worries about

- a lot of analysts know each other (or at least know of each other) across teams as they move around a lot, so the “observing” is generally tolerated as a lot of teams do it - he said something about it helps them in their careers not to say anything as it benefits them all to do it (his words were “rite of passage as an analyst”) and impress people with their work (still not sure I understood that part)

- its very unlikely the coaches/manager are involved in getting analysts to do this and break rules. He said the manager could be aware it probably happens but a junior analyst/intern would be told what to do from within the analysis department, and then turn that data/information into what the coaches want to know about. 

I’m sure there were some other points but the above were the interesting points. 

He said he feels for the intern as he’s getting hung out for something thats very common. 

Cheers for the insights... Tallies with what some of us are suspecting... i.e. that these junior analysts are, to a certain degree, operating to their own 'rules' and timetables with half an eye on impressing those further up the chain of command. 

 

[SaintlyAnd]

9 minutes ago, trousers said:

Cheers for the insights... Tallies with what some of us are suspecting... i.e. that these junior analysts are, to a certain degree, operating to their own 'rules' and timetables with half an eye on impressing those further up the chain of command. 

 

My gut feel based on all that is I can imagine the clubs internal investigation saying this was something done by a couple of analysts and they’ll be disciplined. So not the lone wolf thing, but also not the everyone-complicit thing.

[stknowle]

31 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

If you could use one word to summarise the situation?

Hmmm it’s a toughie. As I’m 6 pints in I’ll go with PERIPATETIC. 

Edited 46 minutes ago by stknowle
Rethought number of pints

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, stknowle said:

Hmmm it’s a toughie. As I’m 4 pints in I’ll go with PERIPATETIC. 

I was wandering about that too.

[James]

My gut says this is all about positioning from Gibson/Boro. They have taken a minor indiscretion, something that happens day in day out in every day practice in the league (regulations or otherwise) and are milking the fuck out of it.
 

They have briefed every reporter they can get their hands on and are whipping up an absolute frenzy. They tried to use it to unsettle us during the matches themselves, that didn’t work. Very convenient for Hellberg to use his crocodile tears as a distraction from the fact that Boro have been pretty crap at the end of the year.
 

Now that they’ve lost, they are doubling down even harder, they know we won’t get kicked out of the playoffs but, if they can force a settlement (Gibson has form for this vis a vis Derby) then why not? 

The handwringing over this is nothing short of remarkable. When Leeds were doing this you had Linkeker and co saying how much they admired Bielsa for his commitment to gaining an advantage, this time around you’ve got talking head James Corden and sanctimonious Henry Winter acting as if we’ve been bribing officials.

My view is that we need to endure a week or so more of absolute hysteria and then it’ll be over and Boro can go back to being completely irrelevant. 

[Miltonaggro]

23 minutes ago, leeham_69 said:

Brilliant. Post this on the Boro forum, you’ll get death threats 😆

That’s more in my field, so bring it on!

[AlexLaw76]

Friday Night....

“It is claimed the man filming Middlesbrough’s training session had ‘professional filming equipment’, complete with a microphone powerful enough to pick up the voice of Kim Hellberg & his coaching staff as they issued training instructions.”

 

Turns out it was some lad with an iPhone on a public path (I know that does not mean it is with the "rules"), but some dedicated high tech surveillance it is not.

[Pilchards]

Between now and the playoff final we need to come up with a song that 36k Saints fans can sing about Middlesbrough.

One last opportunity to stick one back at them for sure.

(1) ‘Are you watching Middlesbrough?’ (Maybe simple but it’s a start)

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Friday Night....

“It is claimed the man filming Middlesbrough’s training session had ‘professional filming equipment’, complete with a microphone powerful enough to pick up the voice of Kim Hellberg & his coaching staff as they issued training instructions.”

 

Turns out it was some lad with an iPhone on a public path (I know that does not mean it is with the "rules"), but some dedicated high tech surveillance it is not.

Surely Q kitted out 007 with superb spy equipment designed to look just like a phone. 🙂

[SaintsRoyalty]

2 hours ago, bender said:

All this over a ten year old !!!

Sorry but surely this was not instigated by the club? Some child looking short legged jelly baby with a iPhone positioned half behind a tree???? Could it be that this absolute sado did this on his own accord? Hopefully that’s what the club are building evidence for. Why he hasn’t been sacked immediately is beyond me. This club every year tries to outdo itself as the banter club for neutrals. Someone like this should never be allowed near a professional man’s club, in his mum’s basement playing football manager at best. 

[CB Fry]

9 minutes ago, Pilchards said:

Between now and the playoff final we need to come up with a song that 36k Saints fans can sing about Middlesbrough.

One last opportunity to stick one back at them for sure.

(1) ‘Are you watching Middlesbrough?’ (Maybe simple but it’s a start)

"We were watching Middlesbrough"

[SaintsRoyalty]

7 hours ago, Miltonaggro said:

Apologies for the war and peace post chaps – bear with or scroll past.  For the last week I have been trying to provide a steer on here as to why I think this silly episode will be concluded with a fine (in the region of £200k) and / or a possible future points deduction (though if I were advising Saints I would appeal this).  Simply that talk of forfeit and bans opens a legal can of worms that is well beyond the remit and scope of both the EFL and / or Middlesbrough FC.

The best way to get your head around it is to think about intervention via the regulator in any other lucrative industry away from the emotion attached to sports.  If a rule imposed by the regulator is wildly out of proportion to any complaint of unfair advantage, the business or individual still has full recourse to law.  Be aware that in any field, a regulatory rule or penalty cannot trump or bypass the law.  My practice area doesn’t extend to sports law, but there is some allied knowledge of commercial litigation, which is what will commence if the EFL act rashly. 

This lunchtime I managed to have a chat with an old friend who does work in sports / commercial law and we agreed on what would likely happen in the event of the EFL overstepping.  I had a spare hour after this (might write a casenote on if it ever goes to law), so thought I would post this on here to put fellow Saints fans minds at rest.  This is only a reflective opinion, and you can never guarantee outcome of course – its complicated as they say - but it’s a measured / informed opinion at least:

Assuming Saints reasonable position is that a junior analyst did record half an hour of MFC’s training, without the Board’s knowledge, and the club are currently undertaking a review of this. 

Let’s say the EFL announce that they will fine and ban SFC from the Play off final, causing the club to miss out on promotion to the EPL.  Reacting to the white noise of the past week.

1. Targets for litigation by SFC

Should the EFL Independent Disciplinary Commission rule to expel Southampton FC from the Championship Play-off Final against Hull City on 23 May, Southampton should immediately file a claim in the King's Bench Division of the High Court naming two distinct parties:

A) Primary Defendant: The English Football League (EFL)

Cause of Action: Breach of Contract, Arbitrary Exercise of Disciplinary Power, and Procedural Unfairness.

Basis: The EFL Regulations form a binding contract between member clubs and the league. Southampton will challenge any expedited expulsion as an ultra vires (meaning beyond their powers) abuse of power that violates the league's own regulatory framework.

B) Secondary Defendant / Interested Party: Middlesbrough FC

Procedural Joinder: Middlesbrough must be formally joined to the High Court action as an Interested Party under Civil Procedure Rules (CPR), as it is likely that they are actively preparing to take Southampton's place at Wembley (as stated in recent MFC communications).

Tort Claims: Direct counterclaims for Injurious Falsehood and Defamation regarding public statements made by Middlesbrough personnel (e.g., Hellberg publicly labelling Southampton "cheats"), which have severely damaged the club's corporate reputation and stock value before a formal verdict has been rendered.

2. Legal position and precedent

Southampton's legal counsel will likely use four distinct arguments to block an expulsion from the play-offs, these are to use the Leeds 2019 case, employment law isolation, breach of natural justice, and the good old American Cyanamid principles.

i) Deviation from Established League Precedent (Leeds United Spygate 2019) In 2019, Marcelo Bielsa admitted to spying on Derby County and every other Championship opponent. The EFL established a clear, binding precedent by issuing a £200,000 fine and a formal reprimand. Escalating the penalty to total competition expulsion for a first-time alleged offense by an analyst is a gross violation of contractual consistency and proportionality under English sports law (Bradley v Jockey Club).

ii) The Rogue Agent Defence: Southampton's executive board will likely submit immediate formal statements confirming they never authorised, funded, or evaluated any illicitly filmed footage. Under standard employment principles, a club cannot face strict liability capital sporting punishment (expulsion) for an individual first-team analyst acting independently outside his explicit operational mandate – their must be a chain of command / causation in terms of proof.

iii) Breach of Natural Justice via Compressed Timelines: The EFL's decision to bypass the standard 14-day response period to force a hearing before 23 May actively denies Southampton its right to a fair trial (McInnes v Onslow-Fane). Depriving a club of adequate time to conduct a comprehensive internal review while Middlesbrough introduces unverified third-party "CCTV history" constitutes a fatal procedural flaw.

iv) Irreparable Harm Threshold (American Cyanamid Co). Southampton easily satisfies the High Court test for an Urgent Interim Injunction (this is absolutely key). The financial upside of reaching the Premier League is universally valued at around £200 million (ballpark extreme financial losses). If the EFL removes Southampton from the final illegally, no monetary damages paid by the league months later can adequately compensate for the permanent loss of global prestige, TV broadcasting distributions, and elite sporting merit. Essentially, were the court to find for SFC, Saints could effectively bankrupt the EFL and Middlesbrough FC.

3. Potential damages and remedies

If the EFL Independent Disciplinary Commission issues a sporting expulsion or points deduction before the weekend of the play-off final, Southampton must seek the following cumulative judicial remedies:

A) Pre-Match Urgent Remedies (Wembley Focus):

Urgent Interim High Court Injunction: An emergency judicial order freezing the Championship Play-off Final scheduled for 23 May, or alternatively ordering the EFL to permit Southampton to play Hull City as scheduled, until a full commercial court trial evaluates the legality of the charge.

Final Judicial Declaration: A formal court order declaring that the EFL Independent Disciplinary Commission's penalty is null, void, contractually invalid, and ultra vires.

Injunction Against Disparagement (Middlesbrough): An injunction ordering Middlesbrough executives and coaching staff to immediately cease public character assassinations and "cheating" accusations online and in press conferences until the formal legal channel has concluded.

B) Post-Match Monetary Damages (speculative as I don’t think EFL are that stupid)

£200 Million Promotion Expectation Damages (From the EFL): If the High Court denies the injunction but later finds the EFL breached its contract by expelling the club, the EFL will be liable for the full, audited £200 million loss representing missing out on the Premier League's central broadcasting revenue, parachute payments, and global commercial rights.

Reliance and Operational Damages (From the EFL): Full recovery of lost ticket sales for Wembley, pre-booked corporate travel packages, stadium concession refunds, and pre-negotiated club sponsorship bonuses tied to reaching the final.

Tortious Special Damages (From Middlesbrough FC): Punitive financial damages if Southampton can prove that Middlesbrough’s public agitating directly caused major commercial sponsors or e.g. shirt partners to execute ‘morality clauses’ and pull funding out of the club.

4. Advice to SFC on taking action if the EFL goes nuclear (I would imagine that all of this is already well in motion)

Club solicitors Paris Smith LLP to instruct specialist sports KC in terms of retention for the action.

Submit Response of Non-Authorisation: Issue the club’s formal observations to the EFL, officially isolating the analyst's actions from board knowledge.

Prepare the High Court Application Papers: Pre- draft the American Cyanamid skeleton argument to ensure that if the Independent Commission rules against the club court injunction papers can be served within two hours.

So that’s my legal tuppence in terms of shutting out the white-noise, hope it helps in terms of perspective.  Much sharper people that I will already be on board, and SFC seem to be acting with extreme professionalism and strategic edge.  Short advice to the Boro brains trust would be to move on, or be careful what you wish for.

By old friend do you mean chatGPT? Amazed 66 people have fallen for this. 

[Addict54]

11 minutes ago, Pilchards said:

Between now and the playoff final we need to come up with a song that 36k Saints fans can sing about Middlesbrough.

One last opportunity to stick one back at them for sure.

(1) ‘Are you watching Middlesbrough?’ (Maybe simple but it’s a start)

We could, or we could get over it and never give those sad whiny freaks or their repugnant Teeside industrial estate a second thought, ever again

[saintant]

50 minutes ago, SaintlyAnd said:

Some bits from a chat this evening with a friend who was an analyst for various teams over the last few years, his take on things and what I can remember he said (I may paraphrase)…

- “observing” other teams training is very common and easy outside the EPL

- the 72 hour rule is something no-one worries about

- a lot of analysts know each other (or at least know of each other) across teams as they move around a lot, so the “observing” is generally tolerated as a lot of teams do it - he said something about it helps them in their careers not to say anything as it benefits them all to do it (his words were “rite of passage as an analyst”) and impress people with their work (still not sure I understood that part)

- its very unlikely the coaches/manager are involved in getting analysts to do this and break rules. He said the manager could be aware it probably happens but a junior analyst/intern would be told what to do from within the analysis department, and then turn that data/information into what the coaches want to know about. 

I’m sure there were some other points but the above were the interesting points. 

He said he feels for the intern as he’s getting hung out for something thats very common. 

One of the most interesting insights about this I've read so thanks for the content. The overarching take from it seems to be that all clubs have and are doing it and nobody has wanted to or bothered to police it so a blind eye is turned. This begs the question as to why Boro have suddenly decided to take the action they have and I'm not sure of the answer. The only thing that springs to mind is that they saw it as a chance to get us on the back foot in the lead up to this game and create a narrative that they've fueled so that it gathered momentum. Might be well off the mark but if what's posted by SaintlyAnd is true they certainly seem to have gone left field on it but for what reason?

It also begs the question, have Boro themselves been at it and is there any evidence on them?

 

[Saint NL]

In all seriousness, I've read some of the stuff online today from Boro fans and they've completely lost their heads. If anyone here is really that worked up about the situation, please take a step back. It's only football, it's not worth doing yourself some serious damage over.

[Matthew Le God]

Steve Gibson's hotel has some poor reviews on Trip Advisor

[sfc4prem]

9 minutes ago, SaintsRoyalty said:

By old friend do you mean chatGPT? Amazed 66 people have fallen for this. 

Classic Donald Trump tactics, right here. Mock, diminish and dismiss expert commentary from a position of ignorance.

[sfc4prem]

Just now, Matthew Le God said:

Steve Gibson's hotel has some poor reviews on Trip Advisor

Wondering for a friend whether anyone potentially has the capability to maybe DDoS Gibbo's sites?

[bpsaint]

Shame that nutjob Javi isn’t around anymore. Could send him up to Boro to do a job on Gibbo like he threatened to do to Steve Grant.