Why we start the season so badly....

....could it be because we leave everything, especially our f**king transfer activity, to the last minute ?

Thanks to Dunc for the idea for a thread...

...and so it begins

"last minute"....

...and so it begins

What, the mis-placed complacency and sneering ? Indeed it has...

I can just imagine alpine sat in his living room, shivering with rage at the prospect that we might not have made any signings Two Months before the season has started. It must be terribly frightening for the poor little chap!

Alpine, surely you're just asking for it here?!? Although I agree to a certain extent, it is June 17th!!!

Lets take a wee look back a previous seasons, where I said the same thing and the same people made the same sneering remarks....

We started in 2008 with no recognisable experienced CBs against Crystal Palace

We started in 2010 with a crippled squad and a totally disinterested manager

And those are the first 2 that come to mind....

Our belated activity in 2009 was, of course, understandable..

Lets take a wee look back a previous seasons, where I said the same thing and the same people made the same sneering remarks....

 

We started in 2008 with no recognisable experienced CBs against Crystal Palace

We started in 2010 with a crippled squad and a totally disinterested manager

 

And those are the first 2 that come to mind....

 

Our belated activity in 2009 was, of course, understandable..

How does that prove your right? You suggested a reason, it doesn't mean it's right. If I heard a dog bark the Pompey chimes on the first day of the season I could suggest that is why we start badly and then point out that we've started badly, therefore proving I'm right...

You are forgetting one thing. If we want to leave everything to the last minute we will, we are Southampton, we do what we want.

I agree that this has often been the case and doesn't help us get off to a good start.

However.......we have a whole new and settled management team in place now for the first time on years

I will only start to think 'here we go again' if we haven't made some decent signings before pre-season begins

Ok, who had "the day the fixtures come out" in the sweep ?

Congratulations Alpine, June 17th is a LONG time after the May 8th date I was predicting, admirable restraint, even if most of the players are still on holiday.

I will however readily admit to being mildly narked that someone has already signed Kevin Nolan, especially a team who allegedly are utterly skint. Judging by their spending so far, West Ham will be in the Premier League next season, or League One by 2014.

However, the only benefit to us piling into the transfer market this early that I can see is confirming that we do actually have cash to spend. I'm not sure we do, but that just means other teams' Chairmen aren't sure either. If we're going to break the bank, best for it to be with a big name AFTER we sign the supporting acts whilst claiming poverty. Getting a big name now would just drive up the prices of everyone else.

As for "in 2010 we started with a crippled squad and a disinterested manager", what's that got to do with signing players ? And I loosely agree with you on 2008, it was too late but firstly it wasn't too late until the season STARTED (which is still 7 weeks away), nor did we have any money to spend and had to leave our signings til the last minute when other teams' squads had settled down and loans were available.

One thing that has always bugged me in the past has been the way that we only seem to arrive at our fist choice team on the opening day of the season after going through 5 - 6 pre season games with any number of permutations including academy boys and reserves. I can see the justification in this for 2-3 games maybe - you need to see how some players react to the first team, but surely it would be beneficial to go into the first fixture having played at least 2 games with your first choice 11?

as we haven't signed a player in the first week that we can (when few signings are done) it shows we won't for the next 6 odd weeks until season starts.

How many transfers have been completed so far? not many in the prem or champ! relax

Generally we start the season badly because of our traditional summer turmoil (sacking managers,administration etc ) although last year it was ****e planning by Pardew.

Genuine question Alps, if we do leave it to the last minute year after year, why do you think it is?

Club can't be bothered, everyones on holidays, people don't know how to run the club?

Surely they must know, its not good to do this, they just need to read your comments on here every season!

But each year same story, don't you think there might be a reason why its done this way?

I would expect a couple of signings to be made before we start pre-season training and announced at the beginning of July.

I would like to see Saints actually start a season running - having had a decent pre-season with some testing games - and a first 11 and a system of play sorted out.

However I think Nigel Adkins is the type of manager to do this - with a system of play, a first 11 and a Plan A, Plan B and Plan C worked out before we actually kick-off the season.

For proof of this you just have to look at how Saints system of playing developed under Adkins, how the set pieces improved, how the problem with throw-ins was sorted(ish) and how we learnt how to play against 10 men by keeping the ball and passing them to death.

For the last third of the season it was visible how these things improved and came together to get us promoted.

Also as a physio I am sure Adkins will be much better at the physical conditioning side of pre-season than Pardew proved to be last summer!

Surely the season just gone shows that pre-season might not actually be that important? According to some on here last pre-season was a fecking disaster yet despite that we finished second, 3 pts behind the champions..............

I think we have suffered in the past by not buying players early enough.

Just looked at our fixture list. We definitely need to improve our first XI if we want to do well. Lots of decent side to come up against next season.

Surely the season just gone shows that pre-season might not actually be that important? According to some on here last pre-season was a fecking disaster yet despite that we finished second, 3 pts behind the champions..............

We wouldn't get away with that in the CHampionship.

Lets take a wee look back a previous seasons, where I said the same thing and the same people made the same sneering remarks....

 

We started in 2008 with no recognisable experienced CBs against Crystal Palace

We started in 2010 with a crippled squad and a totally disinterested manager

 

And those are the first 2 that come to mind....

 

Our belated activity in 2009 was, of course, understandable..

Wasn't that when the blithering idiot George Burley signed plenty of players in good time. Unfortunately he thought the best way to deal with a severe defensive crisis was sign a load of central midfielders

Lets take a wee look back a previous seasons, where I said the same thing and the same people made the same sneering remarks....

 

We started in 2008 with no recognisable experienced CBs against Crystal Palace

We started in 2010 with a crippled squad and a totally disinterested manager

 

And those are the first 2 that come to mind....

 

Our belated activity in 2009 was, of course, understandable..

All with different men at the helm both in footballing terms and upstairs so no real trend to analyse.

We wouldn't get away with that in the CHampionship.

True although we still achieved that in League one despite the chaos ensuing with ML passing away, the Pardew debacle and the 4-5 games of Wilkins' disastrous spell/transition with Adkins

Well, there must be a reason why we have only won one opening game in the last quarter of a century - if it is not because new players aren't given enough time to gel what else could it be? I do think our friendlies games are a bit too low key and we hardly have more than one pre season game at home. Obviously last season had something to do with the fact that Pardew knew he was a dead man walking and had lost interest, but even in settled years we started poorly.

No.

 

You need to find evidence that teams who start season well consistently make lots of early signings to have any point.

 

Most teams have mixed records at starting the season, obviously. Ours is bad, but as we all know, it's been bad under different boards, managers, teams all with very different strategies, goals, budgets.

 

It's a mentality issue, and droning on about never winning first day doesnt help us overcome never winning first day. That's why these records continue. The only constant is after all, the fans.

 

As for leaving everything last minute, we have our manager and team in place and merely want a few additions. I'd say that we're in pretty good shape. No-one knows what we're doing behind the scenes.

 

But as usual, I fear once you have an idea like this I. Your mind you'll run with it without considering the flaws and feel it's conclusive evidence should we lose an early game. It's bizarre, but there seems to be a slight short-circuit in your reasoning, especially when it comes to making things as black and white and simplistic as possible.

 

Sorry, but win, lose or draw first day, you need a huge amount more thought and research into that argument to even get close to a coherent point.

 

I'd suggest you look into:

 

How feasible is it to sign all players early on?

How many teams make all signings early?

How does spending for each club vary throughout the window in terms of early/late?

How do teams records first day compare?

Any correlation between managerial consistency and starting well?

Any correlation between changing leagues and starting well?

Do teams making big signings start better?

Do teams making lots of signings start better?

How easy is it to wrap up signings early? Do players look around and take time to convince?

Is it wise to spend money before the list of free transfers have decided their future?

Is it preferable for clubs to pay additional wages all summer?

Is there marked difference between clubs transfer policy in each league over 10 years or so?

 

I don't see saints as any different, I think it's just an opportunity to find fault while things look good for once. But it's carefully set up with maximum (albeit illogical) opportunity for saying you were right. Ie. Outcome x occurs, you say it's because of y. Outcome x happens again, you say this proves it's y. Well, the logic of it is just plain wrong, highly simplistic and of course very negative. BUT it's interesting if actually researched and I'd be intrigued to know the statistical answers to those questions.

 

It'll take detailed comparison of our transfer activity with all other clubs over many seasons though.

All very good points. Unfortunately though, alpine will just ignore it or cry to the mods claiming "abuse".

I think we have suffered in the past by not buying players early enough.

 

Just looked at our fixture list. We definitely need to improve our first XI if we want to do well. Lots of decent side to come up against next season.

Not by much. I'd say a CB and CM is all that's needed for us to hold our own - maybe another striker and right back as well to really improve.

Surely the season just gone shows that pre-season might not actually be that important? According to some on here last pre-season was a fecking disaster yet despite that we finished second, 3 pts behind the champions..............

Let's be honest, we only finished 3 points behind Brighton because they went on their holidays early.

Geoff, we all know that Cortese and the club keep things quiet until the deal is done and announced on the Official Site. May be this quote on transfer window in English Football is the reason nothing yet anounced. In England, the transfer window formally opens on 1 July, transfers between clubs in the same association can take place as soon the last competitive fixtures for the season have been played. However, many transfers will not be completed until 1 July because many players' contracts expire on 30 June

No.

 

You need to find evidence that teams who start season well consistently make lots of early signings to have any point.

 

Just a slight alteration to a great post.

First there must be some plausable hypothesis proposed before evidence is gathered.

Geoff, we all know that Cortese and the club keep things quiet until the deal is done and announced on the Official Site. May be this quote on transfer window in English Football is the reason nothing yet anounced. In England, the transfer window formally opens on 1 July, transfers between clubs in the same association can take place as soon the last competitive fixtures for the season have been played. However, many transfers will not be completed until 1 July because many players' contracts expire on 30 June

This and the fact that many players are on holiday. When teams return to training then the real business starts again. I have no doubt having said this that strings are being pulled and fingers are in pies even at this stage. I really do think we have easily got a mid table team for next season with the team we have, and we will add 3 or 4 and perhaps hit the playoffs.

Geoff, we all know that Cortese and the club keep things quiet until the deal is done and announced on the Official Site. May be this quote on transfer window in English Football is the reason nothing yet anounced. In England, the transfer window formally opens on 1 July, transfers between clubs in the same association can take place as soon the last competitive fixtures for the season have been played. However, many transfers will not be completed until 1 July because many players' contracts expire on 30 June

Ron, thats a fair point, but would you put money on us announcing a signing on 2nd July ? I wouldnt.

July 1st is when clubs start back training after the summer break. The real hard work starting Mon July 4th. Every year despite the optimistic rubbish that comes out of Saints in my memory (57 years) we have rarely started the season with a run of wins. Every year we are still signing players either late into the pre season training or even after the season has started. The club management regularly makes statements about strengthening which rarely come to fruition. Players are brought in that strengthen the depth of the squad but rarely are they players that strengthen the team (Lambert, Fonte are exceptions). This year we need a number of that calibre preferably before pre season but definitely not long after the start of pre season to strengthen the side and blend in before the season starts. We definitely don't need more of the annual poor start whilst trying to get players in during September and play catch up.

Genuine question Alps, if we do leave it to the last minute year after year, why do you think it is?

 

Club can't be bothered, everyones on holidays, people don't know how to run the club?

 

Surely they must know, its not good to do this, they just need to read your comments on here every season!

 

But each year same story, don't you think there might be a reason why its done this way?

Bearing in mind the lack of straight in winning runs, don't you think maybe it's time to change the way we do things. Maybe we will this year. Three premier class teams at SMS including a tournament in the last two weeks before the season, is something new.

In an ideal world I'd like to see new signings come in early but I think it's more to do with pre season fixtures than new signings.

We need a string of fixtures against British teams, gradually increasing in intensity, that will give us the kind of work out that we will face in the Champ.

Ideally the aim during these fixtures is to formulate a team for the start of the season, ready to hit the ground running.

Last year we had a Swiss jolly playing teams that we'll never face competitively and a half hearted set of fixtures back in the UK with a shifting team.

Hardly surprising the start was poor.

....could it be because we leave everything, especially our f**king transfer activity, to the last minute ?

 

Thanks to Dunc for the idea for a thread...

....could it be because we leave everything, especially our f**king transfer activity, to the last minute ?

 

Thanks to Dunc for the idea for a thread...

Exactly right! The management concept of "Hit the ground running" obviously has not filtered through to St Mary's yet. Perhaps they were waiting to see the fixture list first ;-) ? Now its Leeds we might go all out to sign their best players before we play them.

What, the mis-placed complacency and sneering ? Indeed it has...

Yeah, I mean we did rubbish last season didn't we. I can't think why the club doesn't listen to you.

The signs are there that we will strengthen adequately - we did it in L1 and I expect NC to do it again for the NPC. I have to say, it would be a massive boost to the players and the supporters to win the 1st 2-3 games and see us near the top of the table early doors. To do this, I do believe Alps has a good point - there is a need to settle players in early in pre-season otherwise what's the point of pre-season?

For me, the last thing I want to see is a deluge of signings. The team needs subtle enhancements of real quality and that takes time, and of course, money, if we dont have money then I'm happy with what we have. The best preparation is having a team that's already won 6 in a row. I feel our biggest obstacle to a good start will now be the fixture list.

I didn't agree with your opening comments about Alpine but do so 100% on this well thought through point.

Are we even sure at present whom we might be off-loading? Maybe the Oxo situation is not truly resolved and until it is we may not know our strict priorities or cash situation. If he stays a key position in mid-field is sorted, if he goes we may have far bigger transfer kitty than may be the case now but our needs in mid-field may become critical. If Jack Cork is coming then a midfield boasting Cork, Hammond, Do Pardo, Oxo, Schneiderlin, Lallana, Chaplow and Dixon is surely massively good enough for this league and maybe even the one above. They are all one year older, one year wiser and one year more experienced and with talent to spare the rest is up to the lads up front to knock it into the net fro time to time.

The back four is a different story; one hopes we would not kick-off without a quality centre-back to supplement Jose Fonte, praying of course that Mr Pardew does not come-a-calling when half his team bugger off in a sulk over the ****-poor £40k per week wages!

Yeah, I mean we did rubbish last season didn't we. I can't think why the club doesn't listen to you.

In fact we did pretty well the season before (first silverware since 76, would have finished in the play offs but for the -10) and that pre-season was screwed up too. Our two best seasons in years have come after **** poor pre-seasons it would seem based on this evidence we should endevour to **** this one up and thus ensure some success next season...........

Pompey only have 9 players (with Norris) that’s grounds for panic!

We have a decent squad already + competition for places and imo only need to add a couple.

Alpine makes a logical point if one wades through the predictability of this thread.

If we finalise the building of the team "sooner rather than later" it means that the whole squad can "gel" during the pre-season tour and friendlies, and therefore hit the ground running on 'day 1'. The longer you leave it the more that "gelling" time drifts into the season itself.

That's simple logic.

But we dont know what is going on behind the scenes!! Many transfers are related. One club needs to sign player a before agreeing to sell player b. Warnock was on TV earlier saying he wanted 5players. You may have seen the PL free transfer list. I absolutely guarantee that the agents of these players are talking to numerous clubs. We maybe one of those clubs.

I remember us beating West Ham first game of the season one year, but thats about it!

The core of our team is settled. We may loose AOC, but we survived without him for much of the last 2 months of last season anyway. I would rather buy quality than quantity & if the players we want are good quality I am sure we will be competing with other teams. If we get to July without signing a couple of players I will be disappointed, but the least we can do is give Cortese & Adkins is some time to get the right players in.

In fact we did pretty well the season before (first silverware since 76, would have finished in the play offs but for the -10) and that pre-season was screwed up too. Our two best seasons in years have come after **** poor pre-seasons it would seem based on this evidence we should endevour to **** this one up and thus ensure some success next season...........

Sorry, comparing winning the p*ss-pot trophy and getting promoted from L1 to competing, if not getting a play-off place in the NPC, doesnt even bear serious consideration.

Alpine makes a logical point if one wades through the predictability of this thread.

 

If we finalise the building of the team "sooner rather than later" it means that the whole squad can "gel" during the pre-season tour and friendlies, and therefore hit the ground running on 'day 1'. The longer you leave it the more that "gelling" time drifts into the season itself.

 

That's simple logic.

Its simple logic that so many seem to have a trouble grasping. Instead, they grasp at convoluted "what ifs" about who might later become available or impact on fees for players later, or if Uranus comes into conjunction with Michael Owen's schlong.....

The bottom line is, if we have our typical pre-season, everyone will turn up at SMS for Leeds game without a clue as to who the starting XI will be, and will observe a team out-of-steam in 70mins.

Its simple logic that so many seem to have a trouble grasping. Instead, they grasp at convoluted "what ifs" about who might later become available or impact on fees for players later, or if Uranus comes into conjunction with Michael Owen's schlong.....

I think what people are saying is that its "not the end of the world" if players join later in the window and what you're saying is "wouldn't it be best if we signed new players as early as possible"

Both slants on the situation have merit, but this being the Saints Web forum, opinions tend to get polarised.

....could it be because we leave everything, especially our f**king transfer activity, to the last minute ?

 

Thanks to Dunc for the idea for a thread...

Just like last season when we didn't buy Ryan Dickson until 10th June? Just like last season when we didn't buy Frazer Richardson until 6th July? And just like last season when we didn't buy Danny Butterfield until 17th July? Guly was admittedly a late arrival, not getting to the club until the season was nearly over, on 23rd August.

We then signed Richard Chaplow and Jonathan Forte in the winter window (Chaplow after an initial loan), plus Dany N'Guessan on loan. None of whom went on to establish themselves as a first team regular.

So, using last season as a benchmark, which players should we have signed earlier? And when should they have been signed?

Sorry, comparing winning the p*ss-pot trophy and getting promoted from L1 to competing, if not getting a play-off place in the NPC, doesnt even bear serious consideration.

Sorry did you not use last years pre-season as evidence for your argument? Simple fact is we had two poor pre-seasons but by the end of those seasons we had had two good seasons footballing wise. I'm sure if I could be bothered to look back I could find some blinding pre-seasons that end up with us achieving nothing. All the last two seasons have proved is that pre-season is not as important as it is made out to be.

I think what people are saying is that its "not the end of the world" if players join later in the window and what you're saying is "wouldn't it be best if we signed new players as early as possible"

 

Both slants on the situation have merit, but this being the Saints Web forum, opinions tend to get polarised.

The problem I have with the opposing view in this case is that there is plenty of time for our squad to be depleted still. I consider it highly unlikely that all 3 from Morgan, Lallana and AO-C will be here come Leeds kick-off. So to say we can make do for a while with what we've got is a bit previous. Especially considering our form for leaving trasnfer activity too late.

Sorry did you not use last years pre-season as evidence for your argument? Simple fact is we had two poor pre-seasons but by the end of those seasons we had had two good seasons footballing wise. I'm sure if I could be bothered to look back I could find some blinding pre-seasons that end up with us achieving nothing. All the last two seasons have proved is that pre-season is not as important as it is made out to be.

Really ? so you think without the cr*p last pre-season and Pardew leaving after Rovers game instead of on June 1st, that beating Brightion to 1st place would have still been beyond us ?

It was 3 pts in it at the end . Only one f**ked up game from that starting half-dozen needed to be different....