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Thread: Ralph Hasenhuttl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    How much did Fulham spend last season? What good did it do them? I seem to recall that Spurs spent nothing, finished top four and reached a European final.
    Fulham bought a lot and spent a lot... Got relegated
    Wolves bought a lot and spent a lot... Finished 7th

    Huddersfield bought little and spent little... Got relegated
    Spurs bought little and spent little.... Finished top 6 and CL final

    For every "example" of how not to do things. There is a club doing the same and getting the opposite outcome

    Do we have many examples of clubs selling the best players constantly and succeeding longterm?

    If the club is stupid enough to continue with the formula that has driven our heavy Les Reed lead decline then the club has learned v little

    No club (no business) will survive without investment

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Come on, in today’s terms and taking account of inflation, some of the fees we paid would be considerably higher.
    Over 50% inflation in 2 seasons since Puel ? For a club of our size and commercial power that's something we could never hope to keep up with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Fulham bought a lot and spent a lot... Got relegated
    Wolves bought a lot and spent a lot... Finished 7th

    Huddersfield bought little and spent little... Got relegated
    Spurs bought little and spent little.... Finished top 6 and CL final

    For every "example" of how not to do things. There is a club doing the same and getting the opposite outcome

    Do we have many examples of clubs selling the best players constantly and succeeding longterm?

    If the club is stupid enough to continue with the formula that has driven our heavy Les Reed lead decline then the club has learned v little

    No club (no business) will survive without investment
    It can be argued our decline started when we started to spend more.

    And your examples just prove my point. Big spending doesn't guarantee success and you can be successful through development and coaching. Shrewd spending at any level helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Unless you inherit world class academy players, spending money is a necessary but insufficient condition to achieving success. End of.
    Spurs last season disprove this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    Spurs last season disprove this.

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    Didn't I caveat the statement by saying "inherit world class players" (never mind they spent £30m on a player nearly three years ago = £50m+ in today's terms? and have ramped up their spending this season).

    The general trend is undeniable: money is a necessary but insufficient condition for success.
    Last edited by shurlock; 23-07-2019 at 10:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Fulham bought a lot and spent a lot... Got relegated
    Wolves bought a lot and spent a lot... Finished 7th

    Huddersfield bought little and spent little... Got relegated
    Spurs bought little and spent little.... Finished top 6 and CL final

    For every "example" of how not to do things. There is a club doing the same and getting the opposite outcome

    Do we have many examples of clubs selling the best players constantly and succeeding longterm?

    If the club is stupid enough to continue with the formula that has driven our heavy Les Reed lead decline then the club has learned v little

    No club (no business) will survive without investment
    Many clubs in Europe do such as Dortmund, Sevilla, Ajax, Porto/Benfica, perhaps Monaco before too. However, in the PL, none in fairness.

    But defining success is key too- because I think our ambitions purely lie in just staying in the PL and hoping to have that odd season or two here and there where we do finish in the top 10, or even somehow by chance in the top 8- then sell those stars off, and then rinse and repeat.

    In that regard, whilst certainly cutting it fine in the last two seasons, we have been successful.

  7. #1107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    I despair of Saints fans who still don't understand the Saints business model.

    We develop our own players and/or buy young players with potential, who we accept we'll sell on, hopefully at a profit, when they're ready to move on.

    We don't buy into the media/agent hyped myth that simply spending more on players has merit in itself. It amazes me how gullible fans can be. The "values" put on some players are ridiculous.

    How much did Fulham spend last season? What good did it do them? I seem to recall that Spurs spent nothing, finished top four and reached a European final.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
    In a world where proven top league ability now seems to start around the £50-60m mark, and the very best players are all £100m+, the kind of young players with potential we used to buy are already £20-30m+.

    You think a player with Mane's goal scoring record and European experience would still be £12m? Look at the contrast between his record prior to joining us and Djenepo's over two seasons in a similar quality league (45 goals 32 assists vs 12 goals 7 assists) - I'm hopeful that the latter will be as effective and exciting to watch, but in terms of demonstrable productivity, there's no comparison.

    If we'll never buy players above £30m, we're already priced out of the running for the next Mane.

  8. #1108

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    While you lot have been bickering over some complete nonsense a really good article about our Ralph has appeared on t'net :

    https://thesefootballtimes.co/2019/0...he-bundesliga/

    Well worth a read and should inspire some confidence in our current direction

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    Quote Originally Posted by baggytrousers View Post
    While you lot have been bickering over some complete nonsense a really good article about our Ralph has appeared on t'net :

    https://thesefootballtimes.co/2019/0...he-bundesliga/

    Well worth a read and should inspire some confidence in our current direction
    The curious part there is the statement that Ingolstadt's defence was solid but they wern't the best going forward. Very positive article mind.

  10. #1110

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    Quote Originally Posted by nta786 View Post
    Many clubs in Europe do such as Dortmund, Sevilla, Ajax, Porto/Benfica, perhaps Monaco before too. However, in the PL, none in fairness.

    But defining success is key too- because I think our ambitions purely lie in just staying in the PL and hoping to have that odd season or two here and there where we do finish in the top 10, or even somehow by chance in the top 8- then sell those stars off, and then rinse and repeat.

    In that regard, whilst certainly cutting it fine in the last two seasons, we have been successful.
    Chelsea have consistently sold some (but not all) of their best players, often when they are still very young, like Kevin de Bruyne, Mo Salah, Lukaku, Courtois and Eden Hazard. But, it has cost them top spot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by verlaine1979 View Post
    In a world where proven top league ability now seems to start around the £50-60m mark, and the very best players are all £100m+, the kind of young players with potential we used to buy are already £20-30m+.

    You think a player with Mane's goal scoring record and European experience would still be £12m? Look at the contrast between his record prior to joining us and Djenepo's over two seasons in a similar quality league (45 goals 32 assists vs 12 goals 7 assists) - I'm hopeful that the latter will be as effective and exciting to watch, but in terms of demonstrable productivity, there's no comparison.

    If we'll never buy players above £30m, we're already priced out of the running for the next Mane.
    probably more sensible to invest £30m in the academy and catching them young, as Chelsea appear to be doing across the south of England

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    Quote Originally Posted by baggytrousers View Post
    While you lot have been bickering over some complete nonsense a really good article about our Ralph has appeared on t'net :

    https://thesefootballtimes.co/2019/0...he-bundesliga/

    Well worth a read and should inspire some confidence in our current direction
    Great read and yes it does inspire confidence, we will have a decent season, of that I have no doubt

  13. #1113

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    Quote Originally Posted by DT View Post
    probably more sensible to invest £30m in the academy and catching them young, as Chelsea appear to be doing across the south of England
    Chelsea have been doing that for last 15 years.
    Donít you think we are doing the same?
    We have teams from u8s up


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    Quote Originally Posted by nta786 View Post
    Many clubs in Europe do such as Dortmund, Sevilla, Ajax, Porto/Benfica, perhaps Monaco before too. However, in the PL, none in fairness.

    But defining success is key too- because I think our ambitions purely lie in just staying in the PL and hoping to have that odd season or two here and there where we do finish in the top 10, or even somehow by chance in the top 8- then sell those stars off, and then rinse and repeat.

    In that regard, whilst certainly cutting it fine in the last two seasons, we have been successful.
    Totally agree. Although it is nerve racking to support a club that adopts this strategy and you have to think eventually that we will end up the wrong side of the cut off line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DT View Post
    probably more sensible to invest £30m in the academy and catching them young, as Chelsea appear to be doing across the south of England
    And shipping them out on loan across Europe - with very few academy products getting a meagre sniff of first team football at Chelsea that’s why that Hudson-Odoi wanted out, the lad just wants to play football. But because Chelsea keep spending stupid money on players in that position the obligation is to play X who cost gazillions and is paid £100k+ pw over a player who cost nowt by comparison................hang on they bought that lad from Germany in January for mental money then loaned him straight back: the lad they bought plays in the same position as young Callum and is the same age (I think).

    Like has been said already, Saints hoover up kids at 8, those who make it are more likely to play first team football with us. And with the system in place likely to make heaps more money over their career than the poor sods running around in blue up in Cobham.

  16. #1116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek2003 View Post
    Makes perfect business sense. I remember saying some years ago, if you could guarantee survival ie 17th every year with the minimum outlay, then it would make good business sense.

    It would cost a fortune to compete in the top half of the league and probably result in a budget deficit. You need a rich owner to do that. Alternatively, you keep selling the best players every year, which works well if you consistently unearth some hidden gems.
    And if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle.

  17. #1117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Munster View Post
    And if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle.
    Not in todayís day. Could identify as a onion.


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  19. #1119

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    Already posted

  20. #1120

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Didn't I caveat the statement by saying "inherit world class players" (never mind they spent £30m on a player nearly three years ago = £50m+ in today's terms? and have ramped up their spending this season).

    The general trend is undeniable: money is a necessary but insufficient condition for success.
    Here are the "inherited world class players" you talked about (quite how a club "inherits" a player I'm not quite sure) :



    Didn't exactly take a lot of money to assemble did they, which kind of challenges your suggestion that money is a necessary condition for success.

    A well-run club with an inspirational manager (something we used to have and now, thankfully, have again), good scouting and an above average academy can go a long way.

    Spurs and Leicester are good examples as to how to achieve success without having megabucks.

  21. #1121

    Default Ralph Hasenhuttl

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footb...mpression=true
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    Quote Originally Posted by baggytrousers View Post
    Here are the "inherited world class players" you talked about (quite how a club "inherits" a player I'm not quite sure) :



    Didn't exactly take a lot of money to assemble did they, which kind of challenges your suggestion that money is a necessary condition for success.

    A well-run club with an inspirational manager (something we used to have and now, thankfully, have again), good scouting and an above average academy can go a long way.

    Spurs and Leicester are good examples as to how to achieve success without having megabucks.
    Apples and oranges to some extent - some of those players have been there quite a few years when their fees - £22m, £15m, £11m - was a lot at the time comparatively. I agree they haven't spent what Liverpool, Man U, City have, and to some extent Chelsea and the Gunners, but Spurs just splashed out a big fee this summer that would have been two years' budget under Gao. They have outspent Saints for a long time and since the 80s. Also there are players such as Lamela who were very expensive who didn't appear there.

    I take your broader point and yes, an inspirational manager (Nigel, Poch, Ronald, Ralph) is vital. Puel, Pellegrino and Hughes were lousy hires. It also helped Spurs with Paul Mitchell moving - look at our dealings before and after. This summer I think will be the best since 2014-15.

  23. #1123

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    Quote Originally Posted by baggytrousers View Post
    Here are the "inherited world class players" you talked about (quite how a club "inherits" a player I'm not quite sure) :



    Didn't exactly take a lot of money to assemble did they, which kind of challenges your suggestion that money is a necessary condition for success.

    A well-run club with an inspirational manager (something we used to have and now, thankfully, have again), good scouting and an above average academy can go a long way.

    Spurs and Leicester are good examples as to how to achieve success without having megabucks.
    You don't get Ajax's best player for £11.5m anymore.

  24. #1124

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    Quote Originally Posted by verlaine1979 View Post
    You don't get Ajax's best player for £11.5m anymore.
    Well you could have got him for £10m from us ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by saint1977 View Post
    Apples and oranges to some extent - some of those players have been there quite a few years when their fees - £22m, £15m, £11m - was a lot at the time comparatively. I agree they haven't spent what Liverpool, Man U, City have, and to some extent Chelsea and the Gunners, but Spurs just splashed out a big fee this summer that would have been two years' budget under Gao. They have outspent Saints for a long time and since the 80s. Also there are players such as Lamela who were very expensive who didn't appear there.

    I take your broader point and yes, an inspirational manager (Nigel, Poch, Ronald, Ralph) is vital. Puel, Pellegrino and Hughes were lousy hires. It also helped Spurs with Paul Mitchell moving - look at our dealings before and after. This summer I think will be the best since 2014-15.
    Also missing is Sissoko who for many spurs supporters and insiders was their player of the season. If every team could unearth a Harry Kane, they would - sides have invested far more in their academies than us and haven’t come close yet it’s held up as a feasible strategy by some.

    As you say, citing raw player values without taking account of the year they were signed and the role of inflation is sloppy apples and oranges. Never mind that even if we could claim that spurs practiced what others are preaching, the exception doesn’t prove the rule.

    I wonder is baggytrousers a reference to the fact that he’s so full of s**t?

  26. #1126

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Also missing is Sissoko who for many spurs supporters and insiders was their player of the season. If every team could unearth a Harry Kane, they would - sides have invested far more in their academies than us and haven’t come close yet it’s held up as a feasible strategy by some.

    As you say, citing raw player values without taking account of the year they were signed and the role of inflation is sloppy apples and oranges. Never mind that even if we could claim that spurs practiced what others are preaching, the exception doesn’t prove the rule.

    I wonder is baggytrousers a reference to the fact that he’s so full of s**t?
    Inflation has obviously run rampant in the case of Deli Ali, not to mention Kyle Walker and Eric Dier. Also, it must have gone into reverse the year they bought Eriksen as they'd pocketed 85 mill earlier that year for Gareth Bale, almost 8 times what they paid for Eriksen. I wonder if there's an alternate explanation.

    Also, isn't it funny how Spurs academy seemed to have unearthed hidden gems during the time when they've had a manager who was also lucky enough to previously had talented youngsters coming through from the academy at Saints and before that at Espanyol ?

  27. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by baggytrousers View Post
    Inflation has obviously run rampant in the case of Deli Ali, not to mention Kyle Walker and Eric Dier. Also, it must have gone into reverse the year they bought Eriksen as they'd pocketed 85 mill earlier that year for Gareth Bale, almost 8 times what they paid for Eriksen. I wonder if there's an alternate explanation.

    Also, isn't it funny how Spurs academy seemed to have unearthed hidden gems during the time when they've had a manager who was also lucky enough to previously had talented youngsters coming through from the academy at Saints and before that at Espanyol ?
    What are you on about? They signed Alli 4 years ago as a 19 year old from a League One side, that was before transfer fees went uber crazy but even now a teenager from League One wouldn't cost huge amounts.
    Kyle Walker they signed in 2009 from a relegated Sheffield United. 2 years ago he went for £50million to City.
    Dier they signed from Sporting CP 5 years ago while his contract was close to running out.
    Eriksen was a bargain but as somebody else pointed out, you wouldn't get Ajaxs best player for £11million anymore - they've sold two players who arguably aren't even their best already this summer for £76million and £67million.

  28. #1128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_clark View Post
    What are you on about? They signed Alli 4 years ago as a 19 year old from a League One side, that was before transfer fees went uber crazy but even now a teenager from League One wouldn't cost huge amounts.
    Kyle Walker they signed in 2009 from a relegated Sheffield United. 2 years ago he went for £50million to City.
    Dier they signed from Sporting CP 5 years ago while his contract was close to running out.
    Eriksen was a bargain but as somebody else pointed out, you wouldn't get Ajaxs best player for £11million anymore - they've sold two players who arguably aren't even their best already this summer for £76million and £67million.
    And how much did those players cost Ajax ?

    They cost a lot now because Ajax have developed and been successful with a squad of players who cost next to nothing by today's standards. They've not been "inherited" as Shurlock would say. They've been developed.

    So, if we want to stand a chance against the big boys, either we buy the finished product at huge expense with no guarantee they'll necessarily perform for us (the Leeds route) or we buy talent and have the nouse to develop them as players and as a team (the Ajax/Spurs/Leicester route).

    I know which overall approach I prefer. You may see things differently.

  29. Default Ralph Hasenhuttl to play even more young players next season


  30. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DT View Post
    probably more sensible to invest £30m in the academy and catching them young, as Chelsea appear to be doing across the south of England
    This is a groundbreaking idea and I, for one, am amazed that no other football club has considered investing in their academy and scouting for young players.

  31. #1131

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    Ralph should be congratulated on his new haircut. The shorter style suits him but also makes him look more professional. A very good job well done.

  32. #1132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Professor View Post
    Ralph should be congratulated on his new haircut. The shorter style suits him but also makes him look more professional. A very good job well done.
    I think Dave Watson should get the credit. He's been promoted from GK coach to club hair stylist I heard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Munster View Post
    I think Dave Watson should get the credit. He's been promoted from GK coach to club hair stylist I heard.
    In that case, I look forward to seeing what Dave can do with Djenepo.

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    I like him but starting to doubt. The last few games I've really begun to wonder about him and whether he's a one trick pony.

    His game is press press press. We have no possession, we can't defend, we don't carve teams open and we just don't create enough. Its just press like rabid dogs and see if we get lucky... Its not good enough atm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint86 View Post
    I like him but starting to doubt. The last few games I've really begun to wonder about him and whether he's a one trick pony.

    His game is press press press. We have no possession, we can't defend, we don't carve teams open and we just don't create enough. Its just press like rabid dogs and see if we get lucky... Its not good enough atm.
    I really think it's the players not the manager.

  36. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint86 View Post
    I like him but starting to doubt. The last few games I've really begun to wonder about him and whether he's a one trick pony.

    His game is press press press. We have no possession, we can't defend, we don't carve teams open and we just don't create enough. Its just press like rabid dogs and see if we get lucky... Its not good enough atm.
    He hasn't been given sufficient backing. Improved us massively and immediately but to continue that with the paltry additions we've given him is a tough ask to say the least. Attack, Midfield and Defence all needed strengthening majorly. Attack - Adams is struggling (quite badly), Djenpo (sp) looks handy. Defence - Needed a dominant centre back, got Danso who is playing at left back. Midfield - Nothing. In fact weaker due to Lemina likely going.

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    Yeah the squad is limited. We still do not have a proper CF despite spending £37m on Adams and Danny.

    I think what frustrates me is that we always improve in games. I mean fair play for changing it and improving things, and we then do play some good stuff, but we always seem to waste far too much of matches.

    Did well to get the draw today, but first half was poor and a better side would have beaten united. They were there for the taking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    I really think it's the players not the manager.
    Exactly. The fans played Puel. Then it was all Pellegrinos fault, then it was Hughes, now people are doubting Ralph. Heís the best manager we could hope to get FFS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint86 View Post
    Yeah the squad is limited. We still do not have a proper CF despite spending £37m on Adams and Danny.

    I think what frustrates me is that we always improve in games. I mean fair play for changing it and improving things, and we then do play some good stuff, but we always seem to waste far too much of matches.

    Did well to get the draw today, but first half was poor and a better side would have beaten united. They were there for the taking.
    I reckon we would if Danso hadnít got sent off

  40. #1140

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    There is absolutely nothing wrong with how we play, our approach, the setup. The coaching is top notch and the players have responded to it.

    The main problem? The lack of quality within the group to take advantage of opportunities when we do win the ball back through our approach. Anything people see as being wrong with this team is nothing to do with Ralph, it's the limited ability of the players we have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stknowle View Post
    He hasn't been given sufficient backing. Improved us massively and immediately but to continue that with the paltry additions we've given him is a tough ask to say the least. Attack, Midfield and Defence all needed strengthening majorly. Attack - Adams is struggling (quite badly), Djenpo (sp) looks handy. Defence - Needed a dominant centre back, got Danso who is playing at left back. Midfield - Nothing. In fact weaker due to Lemina likely going.
    Exactly right. I bet he's hoping to get through this season and move somewhere better.

  42. #1142

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-Clarke View Post
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with how we play, our approach, the setup. The coaching is top notch and the players have responded to it.

    The main problem? The lack of quality within the group to take advantage of opportunities when we do win the ball back through our approach. Anything people see as being wrong with this team is nothing to do with Ralph, it's the limited ability of the players we have.
    Absolutely. He’s done bloody well to polish some of the turds we have and make them look half decent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-Clarke View Post
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with how we play, our approach, the setup. The coaching is top notch and the players have responded to it.

    The main problem? The lack of quality within the group to take advantage of opportunities when we do win the ball back through our approach. Anything people see as being wrong with this team is nothing to do with Ralph, it's the limited ability of the players we have.
    We have nobody that can reliably turn an opportunity into a goal. In the post we had Le Tis, Beattie, Lambert.

    Ings seems to squander far too many. So far Che is the same. Mr Long doesn't even know where the goal is. Even Yoshi has that excellent Saints knack of hitting the goalie when it would seem easier to miss (the goalie) and score....

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    Default Last season

    All due respect, the quality of the squad is weak. Yes, great fans and a beautiful city.

    He can't pick up the new player that he wanted (e.g. Schlager, Dost) because of the budget.

    That`s why it not possible for Ralph to achieve great things with this team.

    Know him quite well and he is extremely loyal. Unfortunately, for his career it was a step backwards.

  45. #1145

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vienna07 View Post
    All due respect, the quality of the squad is weak. Yes, great fans and a beautiful city.

    He can't pick up the new player that he wanted (e.g. Schlager, Dost) because of the budget.

    That`s why it not possible for Ralph to achieve great things with this team.

    Know him quite well and he is extremely loyal. Unfortunately, for his career it was a step backwards.
    Well that's a bummer.

    I wonder what they told him when he joined about money ?

  46. #1146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vienna07 View Post
    All due respect, the quality of the squad is weak. Yes, great fans and a beautiful city.

    He can't pick up the new player that he wanted (e.g. Schlager, Dost) because of the budget.

    That`s why it not possible for Ralph to achieve great things with this team.

    Know him quite well and he is extremely loyal. Unfortunately, for his career it was a step backwards.
    Ralph, is that you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vienna07 View Post
    All due respect, the quality of the squad is weak. Yes, great fans and a beautiful city.

    He can't pick up the new player that he wanted (e.g. Schlager, Dost) because of the budget.

    That`s why it not possible for Ralph to achieve great things with this team.

    Know him quite well and he is extremely loyal. Unfortunately, for his career it was a step backwards.
    Just tell him to beat the skates. That’s all that matters.

  48. #1148

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    SO14
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    356

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    Ralph is absolutely the best thing about this club at the moment. Such a shame that he is having to work with both hands tied behind his back. I dread the day he leave.

  49. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7 View Post
    Ralph is absolutely the best thing about this club at the moment. Such a shame that he is having to work with both hands tied behind his back. I dread the day he leave.
    Agree. I fear that he is equally p!ssed off by the standard and level of recruiting this summer. Semmens and Ross Wilson may come across as an encouraging new breed in replacing Ralph K and Les but the management and direction still leaves a lot to be desired. In their defence they are still picking up the pieces of the Les Reed years and it will take some years to overcome that. Then there is the Mr Gao question, what does he want, and how does he magic up some funds to achieve it ?

  50. #1150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Agree. I fear that he is equally p!ssed off by the standard and level of recruiting this summer. Semmens and Ross Wilson may come across as an encouraging new breed in replacing Ralph K and Les but the management and direction still leaves a lot to be desired. In their defence they are still picking up the pieces of the Les Reed years and it will take some years to overcome that. Then there is the Mr Gao question, what does he want, and how does he magic up some funds to achieve it ?
    Do we know how much of a say Ross Wilson had in the Carrillo, Elyounoussi signings? He can be even more responsible for those signings than Reed for all we know.
    Easy to lay blame on people who are no longer here...

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