Redslo Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 (edited) Certainly not spending 12 million on Shane Long. The central concept of it is finding CHEAP players unwanted by other clubs who offer best value for money It is not so much cheap and unwanted as value defined by getting what you need. For any club that can afford him Messi is a money ball player, for example. Long could be viewed as a moneyball player by the club if they believed that he filled an important need and that need could not be filled for less money at the same or better level of quality. alright, i really think austin would be good if we could get him cheaply. However, Newcastle really moving in on him as well, can't see why you'd move there over saints. I am into the Eredivisie, some exiting teams and great fans especially Ajax ultra's. I think mattias johansson the RB could come good and he would also be about 4mi from AZ Alkmaar Because Newcastle is going to win something before Ashley will sell the club. Edited 25 May, 2015 by Redslo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 Because Newcastle is going to win something before Ashley will sell the club. Let's hope it's the JPT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 It is not so much cheap and unwanted as value defined by getting what you need. For any club that can afford him Messi is a money ball player, for example. Long could be viewed as a moneyball player by the club if they believed that he filled an important need and that need could not be filled for less money at the same or better level of quality. 'Moneyball' came about from a team that couldn't compete financially with bigger competitors and therefore had to source undervalued players. Nobody in their right mind would describe Shane Long at 12 million as undervalued, and the idea that we couldn't have got a very similar player to Long for less than 12 million is ridiculous. I like Long, he's a decent player but he was never worth what we paid for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 'Moneyball' came about from a team that couldn't compete financially with bigger competitors and therefore had to source undervalued players. Nobody in their right mind would describe Shane Long at 12 million as undervalued, and the idea that we couldn't have got a very similar player to Long for less than 12 million is ridiculous. I like Long, he's a decent player but he was never worth what we paid for him His definition of moneyball is absolutely correct. He was not saying that Shane Long was a moneyball player, but rather that he would still qualify as a moneyball player at £12m if we thought the skills he gave us made him worth far more than £12m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 His definition of moneyball is absolutely correct. He was not saying that Shane Long was a moneyball player' date=' but rather that he would still qualify as a moneyball player at £12m if we thought the skills he gave us made him worth far more than £12m.[/quote'] Moneyball is a term describing sporting operations in which a team endeavors to analyze the market for players and buy what is undervalued and sell what is overvalued. that is NOT shane Long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Ash Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 Lovren then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 that is NOT shane Long No-one said Shane Long was a moneyball player. He gave the example of Shane Long IF we thought at £12m he was undervalued. Not that he thought Shane Long was undervalued at £12m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMidfieldGeneral Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 Pelle is an easy target but has done well in his first season in a tough league, scoring a lot more goals in a season than Long ever has in his PL career. He plays through knocks, takes the responsibility of being the main goalscorer and has scored vital goals for us this season, yet is patronised and suggested as the first man to ship out. Long cost more, scored less, played less, had far less of an impact, doesn't score in big games, doesn't take responsibility to be a big source of goals etc and yet people like him a lot. Unfair world and I assume you are the guys who always sing the Pelle song at SMS and were raving about him to your mates in November. Pelle will be more than useful next season, and hopefully will have some proper competition, unlike this season. Show the guy a bit of respect. Amen to that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 Toby comments, nothing new really: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32875860?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 Seems like the quotes have been slightly twisted to make it sound like he wants to go to another club, whereas all we've seen from him previously has been him saying he wants to stay here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 Seems like the quotes have been slightly twisted to make it sound like he wants to go to another club, whereas all we've seen from him previously has been him saying he wants to stay here. http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11700/9865318/southampton-defender-toby-alderweireld-wants-future-resolved More balanced here and some additional quotes. He will obviously weigh up all the offers he gets, as he should but we must have some chance unless a top 4 side comes in for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shance Posted 25 May, 2015 Share Posted 25 May, 2015 Lovren then? I'd rather sign Chris Baird on a free than take that disrespectful piece of **** back. Hopefully his career is on a permanent downward spiral now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11700/9865318/southampton-defender-toby-alderweireld-wants-future-resolved More balanced here and some additional quotes. He will obviously weigh up all the offers he gets, as he should but we must have some chance unless a top 4 side comes in for him. Or a CL club from outside the PL. Ditto Morgan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 I'd rather sign Chris Baird on a free than take that disrespectful piece of **** back. Hopefully his career is on a permanent downward spiral now. 'Pool will be looking to recoup at least 12mill and will probably find a taker at that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max_saints Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11700/9865318/southampton-defender-toby-alderweireld-wants-future-resolved More balanced here and some additional quotes. He will obviously weigh up all the offers he gets, as he should but we must have some chance unless a top 4 side comes in for him. Toby's loan move was such a shrewd one by the club, it gives me confidence for future transfer windows. We get a brilliant player for one whole season and then have the option to pay a ridiculously low amount to acquire him or get PAID for a player we don't even own. For me, the best move of that transfer window made by the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beavis17 Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Total Dutch Football @TotalDutchFB 18m18 minutes ago #Feyenoord have set the asking price for Jordy Clasie on £12.7m. Total Dutch Football @TotalDutchFB 14m 14 minutes ago Not one club has officially made an bid for Clasie, but it's expected that #Southampton will be in pole position IF they sell Schneiderlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Total Dutch Football @TotalDutchFB 18m18 minutes ago #Feyenoord have set the asking price for Jordy Clasie on £12.7m. Total Dutch Football @TotalDutchFB 14m 14 minutes ago Not one club has officially made an bid for Clasie, but it's expected that #Southampton will be in pole position IF they sell Schneiderlin. At that price I'd sign Clasie even if Schneiderlin doesn't leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 At that price I'd sign Clasie even if Schneiderlin doesn't leave.Agreed. An upgrade on Steven Davis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNSUN Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Total Dutch Football @TotalDutchFB 18m18 minutes ago #Feyenoord have set the asking price for Jordy Clasie on £12.7m. Total Dutch Football @TotalDutchFB 14m 14 minutes ago Not one club has officially made an bid for Clasie, but it's expected that #Southampton will be in pole position IF they sell Schneiderlin. £12.7 million for the Dutch Xavi makes me think he's no Xavi, but still £12.7 million for any player isn't much anymore. Based on past signings he's definitely in our price range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Agreed. An upgrade on Steven Davis. He plays in a different position. Davis generally plays for Saints in one of the three in a 4-2-3-1, Clasie plays deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint1977 Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Darren Randolph left Brum over the weekend, has had a good season for them and BBC reporting that he's likely to go to a PL club. Given Saints might need a couple of keepers - Fraser out for most of next season, Kelvin perhaps focusing more on coaching and Gazza getting loaned out - HCDAJFU? Watford might prefer him to Gomes and Sunderland need a good keeper, perhaps Toon if Krul leaves but can't think of others that need a GK. K Billy did hint at Martin Stekelenberg IIRC but if we do end up in Europe, we might need someone like Randolph as well, especially if the first choice replacement was a loan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 £12.7 million for the Dutch Xavi makes me think he's no Xavi, but still £12.7 million for any player isn't much anymore. Based on past signings he's definitely in our price range. I'd love it if we signed the Dutch Xavi. A nod back to our history and the days when we could boast the Latvian Micheal Owen and the Swedish David Beckham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Saints linked with Adam Federici in local Reading paper. Available on a free but wants to be a first choice so more likely he will move elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 No-one said Shane Long was a moneyball player. He gave the example of Shane Long IF we thought at £12m he was undervalued. Not that he thought Shane Long was undervalued at £12m. There is an element of the Moneyball theory which says to sign players you have identified, when they are available, if the cost is acceptable. Long for £12m was obviously acceptable to the club given that he was on their list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 There is an element of the Moneyball theory which says to sign players you have identified, when they are available, if the cost is acceptable. Long for £12m was obviously acceptable to the club given that he was on their list. That's not Moneyball, that's simple budgetary discipline. Shane Long is anti-Moneyball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Darren Randolph left Brum over the weekend, .... K Billy did hint at Martin Stekelenberg IIRC but if we do end up in Europe, we might need someone like Randolph as well, especially if the first choice replacement was a loan? Saints linked with Adam Federici in local Reading paper. Available on a free but wants to be a first choice so more likely he will move elsewhere. Not heard of the Brum bloke, but thought the strongest worded "rumour" was the Norwegian, Nyland. Federici would be first choice for much of next season if he joins us, as Forseter is likely to be out for a long spell, and that is likely to be the nearest thing to a guarenteed starting space he's likely to get, asssuming we don't sign another GK as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 That's not Moneyball, that's simple budgetary discipline. Shane Long is anti-Moneyball. And moneyball means exactly? We've been invaded with yank speak again perhaps. Now me I still walk on pavements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 And moneyball means exactly? We've been invaded with yank speak again perhaps. means you analyse the transfer market, buy someone at a low price, with the aim that they turn out to be worth far greater than that. Like Morgan, Clyne. Why people think Shane Long fits into that I have no idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 means you analyse the transfer market, buy someone at a low price, with the aim that they turn out to be worth far greater than that. Like Morgan, Clyne. Why people think Shane Long fits into that I have no idea Ah a good investment for the future then, got it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFear Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Ah a good investment for the future then, got it now. but thats not it is it. I thought it was more to do with finding players that are undervalued based on their stats Thats how liverpool ended up with Downing, as he had the most accurate crosses relative to his price, and when added to Carroll having the most headed goals (or something along those lines), you end up with transfer gold possibly the reason its not really a big thing in football and something I very much doubt we used for any of our signings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashby Saint Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 means you analyse the transfer market, buy someone at a low price, with the aim that they turn out to be worth far greater than that. Like Morgan, Clyne. Why people think Shane Long fits into that I have no idea I think the OP was actually referring to sabermetrics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabermetrics), which was embraced by baseball as described by the film Moneyball. In this respect, it does fit with the discussion of Shane Long if you measure a strikers contribution only in terms of goals scored. Sabermetrics looks at other statistics and looks at the mechanics of how a player fits within a system. Why buy a 20 goal a season play for £30 million when he could be replaced by three 7 goal a season players for less (that is the theory at least). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Troy Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Ah a good investment for the future then, got it now. Its not really that though. Its more about the team than about individual players like that. The idea is that baseball can be broken down in to many constituent parts and although star players can often do them all, the star players can be replaced by average players that are good at one thing. So a player who tries to hit home runs etc the whole time and gets on to base is less effective than a guy who hits the ball a maximum of 1 yard but always gets on base etc. It doesn't probably translate to footy that well anthe idea would be maybe that up front Beattie and Ormorod score 30 goals between them then that doesnt matter if Beattie scores all 30 and Ormorod none if he sets up all the goals. The partnership scores 30 which is as good as two 15 goal strikers. A 15 goal striker costs more than Ormorod but his attributes contribute the same to the overall stats of the team. That's how i understand it anyway. Not sure that at 12m Long is truly a great Moneyball player - yes he works hard and this does create goals but whether this outweighs the other attributes you would expect from a 12m player is another thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simo Posted 26 May, 2015 Author Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Isnt the black box and its algorithms just our version of money ball ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Isnt the black box and its algorithms just our version of money ball ? Black box at Spurs now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Has anyone actually seen Clasie play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 has anyone mentioned the Hull wingback El Hamody??? He strikes me as a hardworking and skill full player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Has anyone actually seen Clasie play? Well yes, perhaps not at his best on that occasion though, in fact he was pretty awful but it was a Dutch international side against France and there was no Robben. I'm sure that he's better than that now. On that occasion he just simply did not exist in midfield against the French man mountains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Red Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 has anyone mentioned the Hull wingback El Hamody??? He strikes me as a hardworking and skill full player Interesting you mention him, as it was noticeable he spent a long time on the pitch chatting with Ryan Bertrand after the Hull game at St Marys after all the other players had gone back down the tunnel...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansums Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 And moneyball means exactly? We've been invaded with yank speak again perhaps. Now me I still walk on pavements. Agreed. I love going to the US and have no problem with Americans. But their sports are sh*te (IMO) so please let's not bring their sporting ****** over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Agreed. I love going to the US and have no problem with Americans. But their sports are sh*te (IMO) so please let's not bring their sporting ****** over here. agree with that. Imagine going to a live sports event that last hours and you have more than enough scope to fill your face with shyte in that time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 (edited) agree with that. Imagine going to a live sports event that last hours and you have more than enough scope to fill your face with shyte in that time Although I believe that partaking of a sort of collective picnic (because I can't spell picnicking like that) in the car park (or should that be parking lot) (think it's called tailgating or something) is part of the event. By the by tailgate is what I think they call the rear door on hatchback cars, no innuendo please:scared: Edited 26 May, 2015 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 That's not Moneyball, that's simple budgetary discipline. Shane Long is anti-Moneyball. The application of the moneyball principles to football are easiest covered by Simon Kuper's Soccernomics book. Signing the players which have the characteristics you need when they are available is an underlying tenet of the whole thing. Obviously the A's example was based on picking unpopular choices because they were cheap, but it also applies to taking the longer view, and identifying and then acquiring the talent you most need at the expense of a short term cost (and there are plenty of examples of them trading heavily to get players they wanted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 means you analyse the transfer market, buy someone at a low price, with the aim that they turn out to be worth far greater than that. Like Morgan, Clyne. Why people think Shane Long fits into that I have no idea No it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 has anyone mentioned the Hull wingback El Hamody??? He strikes me as a hardworking and skill full player If you mean this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Elmohamady his front and centre Hull promotion celebration dancing antics whilst his teammates celebrated with each other tell me everything I need to know about his team ethic and suitability for Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 No it doesn't. it says so when you google it... Moneyball is a term describing baseball operations in which a team endeavors to analyze the market for baseball players and buy what is undervalued and sell what is overvalued. Unlike a common misconception, it is not about OBP, but whatever is undervalued at that time. It is most commonly used to refer to the strategy used by the front office of the Oakland Athletics. It derives its name from a Michael Lewis book of the same name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 I think the OP was actually referring to sabermetrics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabermetrics), which was embraced by baseball as described by the film Moneyball. In this respect, it does fit with the discussion of Shane Long if you measure a strikers contribution only in terms of goals scored. Sabermetrics looks at other statistics and looks at the mechanics of how a player fits within a system. Why buy a 20 goal a season play for £30 million when he could be replaced by three 7 goal a season players for less (that is the theory at least). Quite. It's about identifying key skills needed for success ("getting on base" was a key one for Oakland) and acquiring them. With the different skillsets needed in football compared to baseball, a team ethic is a key driver and the relationships between the different positions are a lot more complex than in baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 (edited) Wish I hadn't asked now............... I have seized on to the fact that it's a US sports term, probably particularly popular with FM afficionados...and probably also used car salesmen. Edited 26 May, 2015 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Troy Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 it says so when you google it... Different thing really. Buying someone cheap and improving them is one thing. The other is buying someone undervalued - by that meaning their attributes are undervalued - and adding them to your team to improve a certain facet rather than being undervalued and then being able to improve them and sell them at a profit. Moneyball is about the value already being there just not being understood by other people, they are immediately of more value to your team the moment they arrive rather than improving them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 Wish I hadn't asked now............... I have seized on to the fact that it's a US sports term, probably particularly popular with FM afficionados...and probably also used car salesmen. agree. it is yank SHYTE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 26 May, 2015 Share Posted 26 May, 2015 it says so when you google it... Well, having seen the film and as I'm currently reading the book (and have already read the football re-interpretation of it), I can confirm that's an oversimplification and it's not just about buying low and selling high, but actually about appreciating undervalued skills and delivering success from seeing those skills before others do - the value is already there, it's just obscured by bad analysis (eg that a hard-working wide man with defensive skills "doesn't score enough goals" when actually he's involved in the creation of chances for others to make assists, and preventing goals by pressing defenders and wide midfielders long before the ball gets near our goal). Kinda like goalkeeper wins you more points than any other position, but they're the cheapest position for wages and to buy the transfer market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now