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'B' Team to replace U23's?


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PL2 rules are that Players are u23 with the keeper allowed to be older, and up to three outfield 'over-age' players per match allowed.

You can change the team name but you cant change those rules.

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5 minutes ago, Nolan said:

PL2 rules are that Players are u23 with the keeper allowed to be older, and up to three outfield 'over-age' players per match allowed.

You can change the team name but you cant change those rules.

....so it’s just a name change? (Assuming it’s true?)

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I believe that the idea is that instead of having an under 23 team that is managed in its own way seperately to the first team they will instead be trained to play like our first team does in order to facilitate seemless transition between the two. Our under 23 side will now, from what I gather, play the same 4222 high press football that the first team will. This was discussed a while ago with regards to plans RH wrote during lockdown. Leaves us in a weird spot if we lose him though, given we would have set up not only the first team but the entire club around his style of football. 

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57 minutes ago, TWar said:

I believe that the idea is that instead of having an under 23 team that is managed in its own way seperately to the first team they will instead be trained to play like our first team does in order to facilitate seemless transition between the two. Our under 23 side will now, from what I gather, play the same 4222 high press football that the first team will. This was discussed a while ago with regards to plans RH wrote during lockdown. Leaves us in a weird spot if we lose him though, given we would have set up not only the first team but the entire club around his style of football. 

Why can’t we just do that with the U23’s team though?

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2 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

Why can’t we just do that with the U23’s team though?

I think it’s more symbolic to be honest. To show that the U23’s are now seen as an extension of the 1st team rather than an extension of the Academy and that the work they do will be much more closely linked to Hassenhuttl.

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This is nothing new. Fans of my age and older will remember the Football combination which was exactly the same as this, lots of teams had a reserve team which would play in this league. I really dont know why they stopped it as it made absolute sense . Players not in the first team squad able to get match time, injured players able to ease themselves back in and a good pathway for young players to make the step up from the youth team as it was kind of a half way between youth football and first team. Games always used to be played at the Dell with good crowds sometimes, it was cheap to get in and free entry if you were a junior saints member so we used to go to quite a few as kids. 

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46 minutes ago, Mikey88 said:

I think it’s more symbolic to be honest. To show that the U23’s are now seen as an extension of the 1st team rather than an extension of the Academy and that the work they do will be much more closely linked to Hassenhuttl.

So basically - the reserves....

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1 hour ago, SuperSAINT said:

Why can’t we just do that with the U23’s team though?

 

1 hour ago, Mikey88 said:

I think it’s more symbolic to be honest. To show that the U23’s are now seen as an extension of the 1st team rather than an extension of the Academy and that the work they do will be much more closely linked to Hassenhuttl.

 

39 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

So basically - the reserves....

I'm guessing that most of our "reserves" qualify to play for the U23s at any moment in time given we've got one of the youngest overall squads, I believe (I'm sure MLG can correct me if that's not the case).

Ergo, both the "U23s" and "Reserves" labels are pretty much interchangable. 

Other teams who have more "reserves" in their squad that wouldn't qualify for the U23s league wouldn't be in a position to do what we're doing. (i.e. squads with a significantly higher average age than ours)

In other words, Ralph and Croker could have changed the modus operandi around how the two most senior tiers of football at SFC intergrate with eachother without having to change how they were badged, but "reserves" probably works better pyschologically with the players than "U23s"

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1 hour ago, Turkish said:

This is nothing new. Fans of my age and older will remember the Football combination which was exactly the same as this, lots of teams had a reserve team which would play in this league. I really dont know why they stopped it as it made absolute sense . Players not in the first team squad able to get match time, injured players able to ease themselves back in and a good pathway for young players to make the step up from the youth team as it was kind of a half way between youth football and first team. Games always used to be played at the Dell with good crowds sometimes, it was cheap to get in and free entry if you were a junior saints member so we used to go to quite a few as kids. 

Main distinction being that the old Combination League was regional and only southern teams were involved irrespective of what division the club were in. I recall seeing the reserves v Oxford and Reading when both were in then Divisions 3 & 4.

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2 hours ago, Turkish said:

This is nothing new. Fans of my age and older will remember the Football combination which was exactly the same as this, lots of teams had a reserve team which would play in this league. I really dont know why they stopped it as it made absolute sense . Players not in the first team squad able to get match time, injured players able to ease themselves back in and a good pathway for young players to make the step up from the youth team as it was kind of a half way between youth football and first team. Games always used to be played at the Dell with good crowds sometimes, it was cheap to get in and free entry if you were a junior saints member so we used to go to quite a few as kids. 

I remember when we won the Combination Cup (ie a reserve Team competition) back in the early 70's I think.

Think we beat West Ham in a two legged Final with around 15,000 at The Dell for the home leg.

Channon played.

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So basically it's just the same group of players but more closely aligned with the first team and a bit more oversight from Ralph.  File this under why weren't we (and everyone else) doing it anyway.  It's the same with all this moneyball nonsense - just good scouting nothing particularly revolutionary but a fancy new name for something that's been going on for years (admittedly a bit more data around now but the principles would have been the same).

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24 minutes ago, spyinthesky said:

I remember when we won the Combination Cup (ie a reserve Team competition) back in the early 70's I think.

Think we beat West Ham in a two legged Final with around 15,000 at The Dell for the home leg.

Channon played.

Suspect might have been late 60's if Channon played as he was fully established by the 1970/1 season (or at least he was in my mind anyway).

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The article seems quite clear, this is not just rebranding and is certainly not cost cutting, I think there is a far more fundamental underlying change in the way the club will operate. The Carillo, Hoedt, Lamina type transfers have been an expensive lesson and these will be far less common in future with more good young players being brought in (like the rumoured Rodriguez lad from Spain for £400k) to start in the B team and so then become 'oven-ready' (to quote the modern phrase) for the A team when senior players move on to 'better' things. I think we will see less use of the loan system for younger players to gain experience and development, instead those that are not considered A team material will be sent out as preparation for finding a career elsewhere. The emphasis will shift from developing players in the U23's to developing a coherent B team and one that is successful and used to winning. There is far more to this than we fully understand at this point but I am sure it is a significant change not just rebranding.

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11 minutes ago, Panda said:

The article seems quite clear, this is not just rebranding and is certainly not cost cutting, I think there is a far more fundamental underlying change in the way the club will operate. The Carillo, Hoedt, Lamina type transfers have been an expensive lesson and these will be far less common in future with more good young players being brought in (like the rumoured Rodriguez lad from Spain for £400k) to start in the B team and so then become 'oven-ready' (to quote the modern phrase) for the A team when senior players move on to 'better' things. I think we will see less use of the loan system for younger players to gain experience and development, instead those that are not considered A team material will be sent out as preparation for finding a career elsewhere. The emphasis will shift from developing players in the U23's to developing a coherent B team and one that is successful and used to winning. There is far more to this than we fully understand at this point but I am sure it is a significant change not just rebranding.

I think the point is that they *could* do all that good new stuff without needing to call it something different. The "B Team" will, afterall, still be competing in the "U23" league. But... I understand why it makes sense to change the name as it helps reinforce the new practices. So, it looks like a good move all round to me, both at a practical and philosopical level.

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22 minutes ago, Badger said:

Suspect might have been late 60's if Channon played as he was fully established by the 1970/1 season (or at least he was in my mind anyway).

Played at the end of 68/69 season. Channon and Sydenham were dropped from the 1st team 3 games from the end and replaced by Stokes, who scored twice on his debut and Micky Judd.

Channon and Sydenham played in the 2 legged final and we beat WHam 3-0 after losing the away leg 1-0.

I got away with the match ball after the final whistle.

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3 hours ago, Turkish said:

This is nothing new. Fans of my age and older will remember the Football combination which was exactly the same as this, lots of teams had a reserve team which would play in this league. I really dont know why they stopped it as it made absolute sense . Players not in the first team squad able to get match time, injured players able to ease themselves back in and a good pathway for young players to make the step up from the youth team as it was kind of a half way between youth football and first team. Games always used to be played at the Dell with good crowds sometimes, it was cheap to get in and free entry if you were a junior saints member so we used to go to quite a few as kids. 

I've been calling for this to be resurrected for years.

It makes no sense to have players not in the 1st team, sitting on their collective arses for weeks not playing any competitive footy and then expect them to perform when they finally get a recall.

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30 minutes ago, Lets B Avenue said:

Played at the end of 68/69 season. Channon and Sydenham were dropped from the 1st team 3 games from the end and replaced by Stokes, who scored twice on his debut and Micky Judd.

Channon and Sydenham played in the 2 legged final and we beat WHam 3-0 after losing the away leg 1-0.

I got away with the match ball after the final whistle.

What became of him ? I recall he was highly rated when he came through and some people thought he might be as good as Channon'. Wasn't his career curtailed by injury ?

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1 minute ago, Badger said:

What became of him ? I recall he was highly rated when he came through and some people thought he might be as good as Channon'. Wasn't his career curtailed by injury ?

Yes. Early on in the next season. Had to give up the game.

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5 hours ago, Lets B Avenue said:

I've been calling for this to be resurrected for years.

It makes no sense to have players not in the 1st team, sitting on their collective arses for weeks not playing any competitive footy and then expect them to perform when they finally get a recall.

Im pretty sure it was yet another victim of the premier league with club in it at the time voting to end it or only include clubs in the premier league, something like that anyway

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13 hours ago, Turkish said:

This is nothing new. Fans of my age and older will remember the Football combination which was exactly the same as this, lots of teams had a reserve team which would play in this league. I really dont know why they stopped it as it made absolute sense . Players not in the first team squad able to get match time, injured players able to ease themselves back in and a good pathway for young players to make the step up from the youth team as it was kind of a half way between youth football and first team. Games always used to be played at the Dell with good crowds sometimes, it was cheap to get in and free entry if you were a junior saints member so we used to go to quite a few as kids. 

St Mary’s was also used in its early days for Reserve games, I think from memory we got just over 10K for a game against either Arsenal or Spurs. Some happy memories from some of those games. Carlton Cole getting a hat trick against us for Chelsea. Federico ‘the torpedo’ Arias playing on trial and proving he had the least apt nickname going. Heady days indeed.

The reserve league was decent though. I guess the fact that match day squads these days have 18 in them, and the days of only using 15 or so players in a whole season are long gone, mean that there’s not as much scope for a reserve league.  And modern science, training method and perhaps players own attitude to health and fitness means it’s a little less important for them to get a regular 90 minutes running in their legs.

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23 hours ago, Turkish said:

This is nothing new. Fans of my age and older will remember the Football combination which was exactly the same as this, lots of teams had a reserve team which would play in this league. I really dont know why they stopped it as it made absolute sense . Players not in the first team squad able to get match time, injured players able to ease themselves back in and a good pathway for young players to make the step up from the youth team as it was kind of a half way between youth football and first team. Games always used to be played at the Dell with good crowds sometimes, it was cheap to get in and free entry if you were a junior saints member so we used to go to quite a few as kids. 

Programme for tuppence and warm up with a half time steamy piss.

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9 minutes ago, percy windham said:

I didn’t have a season ticket when I was younger; I did, however, go to many of the home reserve games with my grandparents. It’s where I met my childhood idol, Frankie Bennett. 

Did you have a flat-top?

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I also met Alan Ball and got his autograph at a reserve game once. As I walked away, I quite loudly asked my grandparents who that was. Supposedly his face fell immediately and he stopped and walked away. I think he left for Man City soon after. 

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22 hours ago, Panda said:

The article seems quite clear, this is not just rebranding and is certainly not cost cutting, I think there is a far more fundamental underlying change in the way the club will operate. The Carillo, Hoedt, Lamina type transfers have been an expensive lesson and these will be far less common in future with more good young players being brought in (like the rumoured Rodriguez lad from Spain for £400k) to start in the B team and so then become 'oven-ready' (to quote the modern phrase) for the A team when senior players move on to 'better' things. I think we will see less use of the loan system for younger players to gain experience and development, instead those that are not considered A team material will be sent out as preparation for finding a career elsewhere. The emphasis will shift from developing players in the U23's to developing a coherent B team and one that is successful and used to winning. There is far more to this than we fully understand at this point but I am sure it is a significant change not just rebranding.

Might also help keep the number of players Ralph has to work with down. Instead of the likes of say Sims and Hesketh coming back and adding to a 26, 27 man training session, they can be assessed in the B-team and keep Ralph working with the players he really wants to work with.

Considering our relative recent success in bringing in over 16s (Stephens, Obafemi, Valery etc) as to bringing players all the way through from eight years old say, would imagine this kind of set-up will assist that. Allows them to be monitored by Ralph and getting adjusted to what he would want without adding to the numbers again.  

 

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On 06/08/2020 at 07:16, TWar said:

I believe that the idea is that instead of having an under 23 team that is managed in its own way seperately to the first team they will instead be trained to play like our first team does in order to facilitate seemless transition between the two. Our under 23 side will now, from what I gather, play the same 4222 high press football that the first team will. This was discussed a while ago with regards to plans RH wrote during lockdown. Leaves us in a weird spot if we lose him though, given we would have set up not only the first team but the entire club around his style of football. 

Doesn't sound much different to how things were supposed to be set up under Poch, and the the Southampton way, junior teams all following the same approach. Can't see anything so far that confirms this stuff in the Daily Fail, and also nothing that really makes any sense about what will actually change. Saints will still have a team in PL2, and play the fixtures pertaining to that League (and the problems that provides, with a lack of competitive fixtures throughout the season). What is going to change, nothing will happen unless all the top teams do something similar?

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This was the plan in the early days of Leibherr and Potch, there was a style of football across the teams, it meant that losing a manager had less impact and that youth players were already schooled in line with the first team. Wasn't this the first step in the Southampton Way. Then Koeman came along and didn't want anything to do with anything outside of the first team, he said as much in an interview and this was the first indication of a difference of opinion between him and Reed, but as he was successful the club let it go. We also started to think that we could make money from cheaper European imports, but we now know that we got our fingers burnt doing this, so it seems like it's a return to the original blueprint, maybe tweaked to take into account Ralphs experience abroad. It also seems like a way of keeping a trim first team, which Ralph likes whilst still allowing Ralph to have oversight of the B squad which the club likes.

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  • 4 weeks later...
2 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

 

"The changes will see the group mirror the training programmes, coaching and style of play of the first team. Training will also be organised so as not to clash with the first team, in order to ensure Hasenhüttl and his coaching staff can not only watch the youngsters train but actively participate in their sessions at times."

Like that.... good move IMO

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So as i said, back to Les Reed "Philosophy A", the one he believed in and promoted until he came up with "Philosophy B" a few weeks later by sending young players out on loan (Turnbull and Stephens if I remember correctly). The idea makes total sense, as it did before, but comes unstuck when the manager leaves and his replacement does not have the same view on the future (Poch to Ronald) and implements a different style of play at which point all the young players have been trained and focused on a methodology that no longer exists in their pathway, and they are fooked. Hopefuly Ralph will be with us a long time and will see the fruits of this change.

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An excellent idea for a "B Team" .. (instead of U23's.)   Our second XI ....we can field anyone from a teenage talent to an established (overage) player recovering from Injury

or  some of the " bench players " who generally get little / no proper game time  and need an outing to keep sharp.  

Decades ago many fans looked worried when we suddenly brought in  "  21 year old "  for his debut, but with teenage talent abounding now ..any 21 y.o  who hasn't had some

game time in the first team may well be on his way out of the door.  

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2 hours ago, david in sweden said:

An excellent idea for a "B Team" .. (instead of U23's.)   Our second XI ....we can field anyone from a teenage talent to an established (overage) player recovering from Injury

or  some of the " bench players " who generally get little / no proper game time  and need an outing to keep sharp.  

Decades ago many fans looked worried when we suddenly brought in  "  21 year old "  for his debut, but with teenage talent abounding now ..any 21 y.o  who hasn't had some

game time in the first team may well be on his way out of the door.  

But we always could, but we didn't. No rule changes in PL2 this year, you have always been able to play overage players and keepers. It's more about how the players are coached and how the teams play in the same way

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Interesting line-up - with Sims, Ramsay, Slattery and O'Connor all back from last season's loans and two of the U18s involved. 

Of the 16 players involved, only 7 are included in the B team profiles on the OS even though these profiles (along with the U18s) were changed on Wednesday.  I'm not sure why they bothered - there remain numerous omissons and several players who have left who are still listed.  Whoever did this seems to have given up half way through.

Transfermarket is showing that Matthew Hall (U18 keeper) is on loan at Harrow Borough - which seems to be confirmed on their club website in that he played for them earlier in the week.  Not sure of length of terms of loan e.g. whether he can continue to play for U18s.

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1 hour ago, Over land and sea said:

Interesting line-up - with Sims, Ramsay, Slattery and O'Connor all back from last season's loans and two of the U18s involved. 

Of the 16 players involved, only 7 are included in the B team profiles on the OS even though these profiles (along with the U18s) were changed on Wednesday.  I'm not sure why they bothered - there remain numerous omissons and several players who have left who are still listed.  Whoever did this seems to have given up half way through.

Transfermarket is showing that Matthew Hall (U18 keeper) is on loan at Harrow Borough - which seems to be confirmed on their club website in that he played for them earlier in the week.  Not sure of length of terms of loan e.g. whether he can continue to play for U18s.

Makes sense to loan a keeper or 3 out as we have a fair few.  

guessing Sims & Olaigbe wide with  N’Lundulu up-top with Mitchell?

(there’s 4 wingers on the pitch :))

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2 hours ago, Over land and sea said:

Interesting line-up - with Sims, Ramsay, Slattery and O'Connor all back from last season's loans and two of the U18s involved. 

Of the 16 players involved, only 7 are included in the B team profiles on the OS even though these profiles (along with the U18s) were changed on Wednesday.  I'm not sure why they bothered - there remain numerous omissons and several players who have left who are still listed.  Whoever did this seems to have given up half way through.

Transfermarket is showing that Matthew Hall (U18 keeper) is on loan at Harrow Borough - which seems to be confirmed on their club website in that he played for them earlier in the week.  Not sure of length of terms of loan e.g. whether he can continue to play for U18s.

Also still not sign of Jeremi Rodriguez who supposedly signed this summer. Will be interesting to see the U18s lineup tomorrow and whether he is on that.

Should keep this B Team thread for the season IMO as always good to follow progress.

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