Saints 2-3 Man Utd - Reaction

[redkeith]

Despite the numerous chances United had, we did hit the post and had Armstrong been able to control the rebound from Djenepo's shot, would have been 3 nil up at half time. 

In the 2nd half United seem to get more space wide on their right, where the first goal came from, and I also can't decide whether we are shit at marking, or if Cavani is that good at finding space.

Subs were wrong. Long has been awful this season, although there was one ray of light when the commentator said that he had not scored in over 50 substitute appearances, "commentators curse" I thought, maybe he will score, but no. It is like playing with 10 men with him on  the park.  Dalio should have come on 10 minutes earlier as most people on here have said. 

[Avenue_Saint]

Didn’t think Bednarek had a great game yesterday. When defending deep he seems to struggle picking up runners in busy passages of play.

 

Fitness is a big issue in 2nd half. We just stop pressing the middle of the park.

 

Ralph has done wonders but he isn’t immune to criticism. He should have bought Diallo on sooner and try and regain control of midfield. When you start getting overrun there, you are inviting on to you shots and giving away possession. The inevitable is then reigning supreme.
 

With Ings back, drop Walcott back to the right and keep Djenepo on the left. People like to pick on him, I thought Utd panicked whenever he got the ball yesterday. Also after coming off in last few games, we have conceded goals.

 

With Redmond and a recently poor Armstrong on bench to call upon after 60 minutes, we should be able to match 2nd half performances to the first parts, as we have done so admirably for well over a year now!

 

UTS

Edited 30 November, 2020 by Avenue_Saint

[Tamesaint]

37 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

What a complete & utter load of tosh. If Hasenhüttl believes this kind of nonsense then the guy is becoming seriously delusional. Talk about clutching at straws for solice. We were beaten fair and square and I'm not sure they even broke sweat to pick us apart second half.

Fact is Ralph you cocked it up big time today, we never looked like taking anything from the game even when 2-nil up and you had no answer to dealing with the changes that OGS made at HT. 

Another one of your classic posts.

"We never looked like taking anything from the game" ..... even though we were level or in the lead for 93 minutes of the game.  

Staggering!!

[Turkish]

36 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I doubt it as they are fictitious.

Gulys 15 minute clause wasn't 😜

[Totton Saint]

How can we know if the bench is any good if we do not use them util it is too late in the game to see what they can do. I said in the match  build up thread i  hope Hass. does not make a mess of the subs and sure enough he did

[Lighthouse]

27 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Gulys 15 minute clause wasn't 😜

I refer to the case of the people vs. Jermaine Wright in 2006.

[macca155]

36 minutes ago, Avenue_Saint said:

Didn’t think Bednarek had a great game yesterday. When defending deep he seems to struggle picking up runners in busy passages of play.

 

Fitness is a big issue in 2nd half. We just stop pressing the middle of the park.

 

Ralph has done wonders but he isn’t immune to criticism. He should have bought Diallo on sooner and try and regain control of midfield. When you start getting overrun there, you are inviting on to you shots and giving away possession. The inevitable is then reigning supreme.
 

With Ings back, drop Walcott back to the right and keep Djenepo on the left. People like to pick on him, I thought Utd panicked whenever he got the ball yesterday. Also after coming off in last few games, we have conceded goals.

 

With Redmond and a recently poor Armstrong on bench to call upon after 60 minutes, we should be able to match 2nd half performances to the first parts, as we have done so admirably for well over a year now!

 

UTS

Good post agree with that. It was exactly the same in the Wolves game as fitness levels dropped (natural with pressing game), Saints came under pressure in midfield and dropped deeper. That gave a very good attack chance to do their thing. Armstrong is a good player and his twinkle toes make goals, but like Lallana I think he is a 60 minute player, Diallo seems to have a bit about him and looks like he would shore up the midfield, for me that was a natural substitution in both games.

I personally think we missed Redmond, I know he isn't everyone's choice but he links well with Bertrand and crucially does give the ball occasionally, when Bertie does a lung busting run past him. Bertrand isn't getting any younger and was knackered by the end of the game, Saints need to rely on his experience rather than fitness if he is to stay.

It wasn't that bad a performance, but the worrying collapse towards the end of the game needs to be addressed. Teams work us out just as they worked out Everton, a good manager adapts and reboots. The opposition isn't just going to sit there and let us press and harry them throughout the game. They will spend the week working out a strategy to neutralise our tactics. The next two fixtures give us a good chance to get the campaign up and running again.

As supporters we need to manage our expectations a little, it was fabulous being top of the table but Saints just don't have the squad to maintain that sort of form .... yet. However we are showing decent Europa cup form and that should be the goal. With Leicester's form finishing 6th , means finishing above Man Utd, Arsenal, Everton, Wolves, and Aston Villa. Considering our EPL form in recent years that would be quite something.

[M271]

Had a feeling of dread even at 2 - 0 up at half time, wife said to me you should be happy but I said I just know what's going to happen and I was right (not difficult being a long standing Saints fan!).

Towards the end I was happy with the draw but the inevitable happened in extra time just to bring true what seems to be a predictable script against Utd).

I don't normally criticise RH but bringing Long on at 60 min and what until near the end to replace anyone else when we were obviously being out played way before that was a mistake IMO.

[VectisSaint]

4 hours ago, LaptopSaint said:

Yeah but in three of our last four games we've been 4-0, 1-0 and 2-0 up and we've ended up 4-3, 1-1, and 2-3. So 7 goals scored and then 7 conceded.

And my point is that if we've put things in place to improve it, they're not yet working very well. We work so hard off the ball that without subs we collectively run out of steam, and only Newcastle recently have been too crap to take advantage.

Overall, not complaining at all. It's been a brilliant start to the season with Brighton and Sheff up next. But the main problem is obvious.

True, but the point is that what happened in 2018-19 season is totally irrelevant, what happened in 2019-20 is largely irrelevant (by the way as far as I can tell we were nowhere near the top of this table last season, but can't verify to be sure). Yes, we have now dropped 8 points from winning positions this season (3 each vs Spurs and ManU and 2 vs Wolves?), and that is not good, but just to balance that we are currently 5th in the table of most points gained from a drawing position. All those games where we have lost from a winning position also show that we have been in the lead in 8 out of 10 games so far this season, I would much rather that than we were constantly having to come from behind to get points. Anyway, as i said the point here is that this nonsense stat starting from Dec 2018 is just that, nonsense, completely irrelevant, and says nothing about the resilience of the current team (i.e. this season).

[Avenue_Saint]

22 minutes ago, macca155 said:

Good post agree with that. It was exactly the same in the Wolves game as fitness levels dropped (natural with pressing game), Saints came under pressure in midfield and dropped deeper. That gave a very good attack chance to do their thing. Armstrong is a good player and his twinkle toes make goals, but like Lallana I think he is a 60 minute player, Diallo seems to have a bit about him and looks like he would shore up the midfield, for me that was a natural substitution in both games.

I personally think we missed Redmond, I know he isn't everyone's choice but he links well with Bertrand and crucially does give the ball occasionally, when Bertie does a lung busting run past him. Bertrand isn't getting any younger and was knackered by the end of the game, Saints need to rely on his experience rather than fitness if he is to stay.

It wasn't that bad a performance, but the worrying collapse towards the end of the game needs to be addressed. Teams work us out just as they worked out Everton, a good manager adapts and reboots. The opposition isn't just going to sit there and let us press and harry them throughout the game. They will spend the week working out a strategy to neutralise our tactics. The next two fixtures give us a good chance to get the campaign up and running again.

As supporters we need to manage our expectations a little, it was fabulous being top of the table but Saints just don't have the squad to maintain that sort of form .... yet. However we are showing decent Europa cup form and that should be the goal. With Leicester's form finishing 6th , means finishing above Man Utd, Arsenal, Everton, Wolves, and Aston Villa. Considering our EPL form in recent years that would be quite something.

Great post. Couldn’t agree more 👍🏼

[sydney_saint]

I think we have a bit of an issue with the middle '2' in the 2-2-2. Ings and Che pick themselves when fit. As do JWP and Romeu. But that middle 2 aren't quite doing it either in attack or helping out defensively. Redmond has been more off than on for a while now. Armstrong hasn't looked good since he got COVID (no idea if that is related or coincidence), Walcott is okay but has issues around passing and shooting that have blighted his whole career, and Djenepo I really like, but still very, very raw. Youngsters that have been tried there like Smallbone and Tella do not look ready. 

It's a niche position so I get players have to learn how to play it, unlike say Ings who gets to play the way he learned. But I'm finding none of them are making a real clear statement that they own that position. 

The positive is that most of the positions are sorted. JWP is playing at a phenomenal level and we have Ings to come back in. Beat Brighton and things are still looking very, very good. 

Edited 30 November, 2020 by sydney_saint

[Turkish]

48 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I refer to the case of the people vs. Jermaine Wright in 2006.

If ever there was an example this is one. Got picked whatever the team wherever Burley could pick him

[benjii]

Agree with the people observing that we missed Redmond yesterday. It would have been great to have been able to bring him on instead of Long as he might have actually been able to receive the ball and hold onto it. It was obvious we were going to concede if we didn't keep hold of the ball more. He can be a frustrating player but he's got infinitely superior technique and poise to Long and Walcott. Long seems like a nice chap but his new contract is looking like an utter waste of money, especially if Nlundulu is deemed worthy of a place on the bench. 

I know we have been playing much more constructive and attractive football this season but I thought we were guilty of over-playing a bit yesterday. If they had a weakness it looked like being their back-line and I thought we could have got it into Adams a bit quicker and played off him. Obviously not having Ings is a big problem against the best teams as you need to look after the ball.

[Scummer]

4 hours ago, SonicBoom said:

Then second half, just like Villa, we came out and played differently.

I'm surprised no one has picked up on the main similarity to the Villa game, that is Bednarek getting injured. He probably should have gone off yesterday, he was clearly struggling and in pain. Presumably the Villa experience made Ralph stick with him this time, but it was a turning point for me.

[Toussaint]

2 hours ago, eelpie said:

So would this mean that our young academy prospects don't get opportunities to play in the first team?

No it doesn't mean that at all, it means we should not be relying so heavily on academy "prospects" and a well past his prime player like Shane. Please also bear in mind that the only first team players we have injured at the moment the moment are Danny Ings and Redmond, who was losing his place anyway.  I'm concerned by the thought of playing the better sides with acaddamy prospects filling in for JWP, Oriel, Bertrand or KWP, for whom way have no experienced cover at all should they be sidelined for any reason.

[jamesfp1]

Diallo should have been on for Djenepo soon as it went 2-1. You knew from that point we would 'do a saints'.

But then maybe Ralph hasn't been here long enough to know. 

[Suhari]

1 hour ago, Scummer said:

I'm surprised no one has picked up on the main similarity to the Villa game, that is Bednarek getting injured. He probably should have gone off yesterday, he was clearly struggling and in pain. Presumably the Villa experience made Ralph stick with him this time, but it was a turning point for me.

A good point this. He clearly wasn't right, and yet our bench is so weak that we'd rather not replace him. Without decent investment, what can we really do about it?

[beatlesaint]

I’m getting really pissed off with Sky putting that stat up about how many points we’ve dropped over the past couple of seasons once we take the lead. Sometimes you have barely finished celebrating the goal and there it is, it’s like the graphics guy just can’t wait to show it.

The thing is it’s nothing new, they are treating it as some kind of weird phenomenon but anyone who has supported Saints for any decent length of time will be well aware that it’s always happened, it’s the Southampton way !

Many a time that clock on the East Stand at The Dell used to go a quarter speed once it got to 4.35 on a Saturday afternoon. The number of goals this club has conceded in the last 10 mins must be huge. Probably not many more than most clubs but it always feels like it is.

[rallyboy]

5 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Pathetic!

Bit OTT.

We lost to a very expensive side with quality on the bench and yet some people on here are slagging the players as if we are five points adrift at the bottom.

We've done very well so far this season, but we have a way to go before we can have prima donna fans making out our team is beyond useless and throwing hissy fits.

We all witnessed a proper horrendous performance over a year ago, yesterday was not one - some people need to stop the fucking moaning and get real. 

We are punching above our weight, and I'm glad we are, but I'm realistic enough not to wee myself when a player on three times our average wage proves himself to be quite useful. 

But thanks for calling me pathetic, nice touch, top banter.

[Lighthouse]

16 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Bit OTT.

We lost to a very expensive side with quality on the bench and yet some people on here are slagging the players as if we are five points adrift at the bottom.

We've done very well so far this season, but we have a way to go before we can have prima donna fans making out our team is beyond useless and throwing hissy fits.

We all witnessed a proper horrendous performance over a year ago, yesterday was not one - some people need to stop the fucking moaning and get real. 

We are punching above our weight, and I'm glad we are, but I'm realistic enough not to wee myself when a player on three times our average wage proves himself to be quite useful. 

But thanks for calling me pathetic, nice touch, top banter.

More like slagging the players off as if a lack of concentration, leadership and mental resilience is a thoroughly unprofessional recurring theme in our squad. Perhaps someone can come up with a comprehensive list of results thrown away in stoppage time in the last couple of years but it’s gone beyond tedium now.

 

Two mates text me yesterday at 2-1 basically saying, "oooh, don’t f**k this up now." My response was, "I’ve switched it off, we’re going to lose 3-2 in stoppage time."

[Greenridge]

Ralph should just check-in here for all his solutions. WTF does he know.

[Charlie Wayman]

7 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

Another one of your classic posts.

"We never looked like taking anything from the game" ..... even though we were level or in the lead for 93 minutes of the game.  

Staggering!!

Yes but you will have to admit that if McCarthy hadn't kept us in with several crucial saves it they would have been well ahead long before that. We were staggeringly inept in defence after the break.

[StrangelyBrown]

7 hours ago, sydney_saint said:

I think we have a bit of an issue with the middle '2' in the 2-2-2. Ings and Che pick themselves when fit. As do JWP and Romeu. But that middle 2 aren't quite doing it either in attack or helping out defensively. Redmond has been more off than on for a while now. Armstrong hasn't looked good since he got COVID (no idea if that is related or coincidence), Walcott is okay but has issues around passing and shooting that have blighted his whole career, and Djenepo I really like, but still very, very raw. Youngsters that have been tried there like Smallbone and Tella do not look ready. 

It's a niche position so I get players have to learn how to play it, unlike say Ings who gets to play the way he learned. But I'm finding none of them are making a real clear statement that they own that position. 

The positive is that most of the positions are sorted. JWP is playing at a phenomenal level and we have Ings to come back in. Beat Brighton and things are still looking very, very good. 

I suspect it is that the position is a 60 minute position rather than Armstrong being a 60 minute player. No matter who plays in one of the 10 positions, they seem to be knackered in the second half which then causes us to be under too much pressure. These positions are key to our press and as soon as they stop pressing we start defending further back, which in turn puts us under pressure. Perhaps we just need to have replacements for both those positions at the right time?

[The Cat]

5 hours ago, beatlesaint said:

I’m getting really pissed off with Sky putting that stat up about how many points we’ve dropped over the past couple of seasons once we take the lead. Sometimes you have barely finished celebrating the goal and there it is, it’s like the graphics guy just can’t wait to show it.

At least we're getting in leading positions rather than just going 2-0 down and losing with a whimper.

Once we sort out how to regularly close out games against the top teams we'll be in a very strong position. 

[bpsaint]

8 hours ago, Scummer said:

I'm surprised no one has picked up on the main similarity to the Villa game, that is Bednarek getting injured. He probably should have gone off yesterday, he was clearly struggling and in pain. Presumably the Villa experience made Ralph stick with him this time, but it was a turning point for me.

Thought something similar myself - imagine the abuse Stephens would have got on here though if he’d come on and we’d lost 3-2.

Bednarek has been shaky this season but has managed to get away with it when we’re on the front foot, I just really hope that Salish is the player we all hope he is, and that we get to see him soon.

[danjosaint]

2 hours ago, The Cat said:

 

Once we sort out how to regularly close out games against the top teams we'll be in a very strong position. 

We won't do that until we have a spine and some leaders 

[Mr X]

14 hours ago, danjosaint said:

We won't do that until we have a spine and some leaders 

We needed Somone like ings to keep hold of the ball I feel we may have held on for the draw with him availble 

[Totton Saint]

JWP must have been sick after his heroics were nullified by three,yes three goals from MU in just the second half.

[SaveloyMush]

On 30/11/2020 at 19:35, StrangelyBrown said:

I suspect it is that the position is a 60 minute position rather than Armstrong being a 60 minute player. No matter who plays in one of the 10 positions, they seem to be knackered in the second half which then causes us to be under too much pressure. These positions are key to our press and as soon as they stop pressing we start defending further back, which in turn puts us under pressure. Perhaps we just need to have replacements for both those positions at the right time?

Excellent post.

Fortunately, when the squad is at full strength, Saints have 4 players to play the middle 2.