Russell Martin

[Give it to Ron]

27 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Is the gulf between the two getting greater? If it was you would expect the three promoted teams to come straight back down most of the time, but this rarely happens. You can still go up and stay up if you do it properly. All non big club clubs are one bad season away from going down and often the foundations for a bad season are laid in the season before. Which means there is a space in the Prem ready to be bagged by the most prepared promoted team.

Look at Brentford, Fulham, Palace Brighton, Bournemouth good example of that.

No bigger clubs than us and we should be in their position had we not messed up recruitment would be.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Give it to Ron said:

We’re not sacking Martin and if we did after he delivered a near 90 point season then you’ll do well to convince credible managers to trust you. 

There is not one manager who is going to turn us down on the basis we sacked Lego head when he failed to get us promoted.

[Give it to Ron]

5 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

There is not one manager who is going to turn us down on the basis we sacked Lego head when he failed to get us promoted.

Agreed we are a good catch and Cooper would be my choice if it happens but can’t see it.

[Saint86]

I personally have seen enough of Martin to completely change my opinion around - I want us to be keeping him even if we don't get promoted - and letting him properly build a side this summer. I think he's done a pretty good job all in all this year, and he's a young manager who needs to make mistakes and learn, and to have some of his edges worn off. Another year in the champ where he's allowed to better build a team over the summer wouldn't be the worst thing that happens to us. The bigger concern is that is the structure in place above/behind him to actually focus on good player recruitment this summer (as opposed the priority last summer being to flog as many assets as possible to meet ffp requirements). For example, i've moaned all year about lack of cover at FB, at CDM etc. (and those are valid), but actually recently what has been really obvious is that once creative players go off, we struggle - players like Stu/armstrong - ones who can carry the ball and make something happen from midfield, who can create with their vision and passing - and actually utilise the runners of our strikers and wide me. Without them, we lose so much composure and control from our game, our threat reduces, our possession reduces, and it allows the other teams to push up more, win the ball back, and start to hurt us. Rothwell just doesn't fit the bill for that role, and Smallbone doesn't either. So whilst we have all mostly moaned at him for subs, there aren't replacements for those type of players in the squad -and that ultimately is on the recruitment side and Wilcox, with an acknowledgement that the bottom line last summer was to balance the books sadly. If that can be addressed in the summer (as well as CDM, a good finisher (perhaps that is steward), and full back cover - i think we'll be well set to go again next year.

I do also think he's getting a lot of unfair disrespect from some fans over what he's achieved - given how he's completely changed the club's mentality around (from relegation to chasing promotion), changed the tactical style, and still built a very competitive side despite the chaos of the summer - its impressive imo - and the reality is that we are a joy to watch in full flow. Yes, he was pissing me off with his "being brave, proud of the players", and that smug chin right in your face every interview... Yeah, i can't lie, that was all grating... but on reflection - what do we (as fans) want - journeyman managers that come in, impose their own style and players and then f'off at the first majority, or are fans prepared to embrace a project? Maybe this is naive of me as most saints fans seemed to want Ralph out, so maybe they do just want a conveyor of short term disloyal managers... but from where we are now, we need a plan for the prem, and with commitment to Martin and his style of play i can in all seriousness see a successful step up in the future - it needs us and him to improve, and for a good summer of recruitment - but we should be targeting all of those things as standard?!. And frankly, its a freak season with respect to just how good we'd had to have been to have been promoted - Any other year we'd have been comfortable (with corresponding reductions in pressure), and wouldn't have had the fixture pile up we've had for the run in due to the fire and Leicester postponement to boot.

And also, I have moaned about him all year - But I equally can't blame him for things like that Cardiff loss (amongst many others) - Armstrong, Che, Brooks to name a few... Its pretty damn evident that decent finishing would have made a huge difference this year (sweepstake @anyone over how many SR windows we go before we sign one and can stop saying this?) - and there are games where i swear our strikers couldn't  hit a barn door at 6 yards due to lack of composure.

Team Martin for me at the present time.

Edited April 23 by Saint86

[trousers]

24 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

he's a young manager who needs to make mistakes and learn,

Agree with that in principle but given this is now his 5 year in the Championship, how much evidence is there that he's learned from his past mistakes? 

[bpsaint]

If he can’t get promoted this season, with the level of players available to him, then there’s no way he’s going to manage it next season with a weaker squad.

[The very right reverend]

1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

I personally have seen enough of Martin to completely change my opinion around - I want us to be keeping him even if we don't get promoted - and letting him properly build a side this summer. I think he's done a pretty good job all in all this year, and he's a young manager who needs to make mistakes and learn, and to have some of his edges worn off. Another year in the champ where he's allowed to better build a team over the summer wouldn't be the worst thing that happens to us. The bigger concern is that is the structure in place above/behind him to actually focus on good player recruitment this summer (as opposed the priority last summer being to flog as many assets as possible to meet ffp requirements). For example, i've moaned all year about lack of cover at FB, at CDM etc. (and those are valid), but actually recently what has been really obvious is that once creative players go off, we struggle - players like Stu/armstrong - ones who can carry the ball and make something happen from midfield, who can create with their vision and passing - and actually utilise the runners of our strikers and wide me. Without them, we lose so much composure and control from our game, our threat reduces, our possession reduces, and it allows the other teams to push up more, win the ball back, and start to hurt us. Rothwell just doesn't fit the bill for that role, and Smallbone doesn't either. So whilst we have all mostly moaned at him for subs, there aren't replacements for those type of players in the squad -and that ultimately is on the recruitment side and Wilcox, with an acknowledgement that the bottom line last summer was to balance the books sadly. If that can be addressed in the summer (as well as CDM, a good finisher (perhaps that is steward), and full back cover - i think we'll be well set to go again next year.

I do also think he's getting a lot of unfair disrespect from some fans over what he's achieved - given how he's completely changed the club's mentality around (from relegation to chasing promotion), changed the tactical style, and still built a very competitive side despite the chaos of the summer - its impressive imo - and the reality is that we are a joy to watch in full flow. Yes, he was pissing me off with his "being brave, proud of the players, smug chin right in your face interview style... i can't lie... but on reflection - what do we (as fans) want - journeyman managers that come in, impose their own style and players and then f'off at the first majority, or are fans prepared to embrace a project? Maybe this is naive of me as most saints fans seemed to want Ralph out, so maybe they do just want a conveyor of short term disloyal managers... but from where we are now, we need a plan for the prem, and with commitment to Martin and his style of play i can in all seriousness see a successful step up in the future - it needs us and him to improve, and for a good summer of recruitment - but we should be targeting all of those things as standard?!. And frankly, its a freak season with respect to just how good we'd had to have been to have been promoted - Any other year we'd have been comfortable (with corresponding reductions in pressure), and wouldn't have had the fixture pile up we've had for the run in due to the fire and Leicester postponement to boot.

And also, I have moaned about him all year - But I equally can't blame him for things like that Cardiff loss (amongst many others) - Armstrong, Che, Brooks to name a few... Its pretty damn evident that decent finishing would have made a huge difference this year (sweepstake @anyone over how many SR windows we go before we sign one and can stop saying this?) - and there are games where i swear our strikers couldn't  hit a barn door at 6 yards due to lack of composure.

Team Martin for me at the present time.

Finances will dictate we'll have a far far weaker team next year, he had one shot and if he blows it he should walk.

[notnowcato]

6 hours ago, Toussaint said:

Not really, it seems clear to me the gap between the prem, and particularly the teams relegated, is widening at an exponential rate.

Ipswich??

[Lee On Solent Saint]

47 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Ipswich??

Should Ipswich go up this year, they will fare no better than the three that went up last season. Determination and willing to fight as a team will only take you so far. I would expect Leicester and Leeds to make a decent attempt at it. 

[notnowcato]

1 minute ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Should Ipswich go up this year, they will fare no better than the three that went up last season. Determination and willing to fight as a team will only take you so far. I would expect Leicester and Leeds to make a decent attempt at it. 

The thread (within this thread) was about the widening gap between Championship teams and the teams relegated from the prem, admittedly my argument is the exception and I do think the gap is increasing but not exponentially as suggested by toussaint.  

[VectisSaint]

48 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

The thread (within this thread) was about the widening gap between Championship teams and the teams relegated from the prem, admittedly my argument is the exception and I do think the gap is increasing but not exponentially as suggested by toussaint.  

The 3 teams that go up this year are far better than the 3 last year. Burnley looked good last year but once they lost their loanees and failed to invest they were shown to be very poor. I'm sure Leicester (if they don't get a points deduction) and Leeds at least will be safe mid table next season. Ipswich might struggle but their team spirit might get them through. We would struggle for the same reason as Burnley. WBA/Norwich would be straight back down, but then that is WBA's modus operandi.

[S-Clarke]

2 hours ago, notnowcato said:

The thread (within this thread) was about the widening gap between Championship teams and the teams relegated from the prem, admittedly my argument is the exception and I do think the gap is increasing but not exponentially as suggested by toussaint.  

I think the levels have been quite skewed this year, in both leagues. The 3 who came down were 3 somewhat established PL clubs with big wage bills and lots of players who had proven themselves to be top flight players, the 3 of us managed to keep hold of some real quality which has been why the levels at the top end have been so high.

On the other side of the fence the 3 who went up haven't improved the level of the prem, they've not been able to compete at all for varying reasons. Luton gave it a good shot, but ultimately they are well off the level required - ditto Sheff U, neither were ever quite good enough to start with and they couldn't invest. Burnley did invest but they copied our approach and signed kids.

I think Leeds/Leicester will give the PL much more of a go and drag the hoverers right back into the mix next year, Everton have genuinely got away with it (again) - because in any other season they're toast. You can pretty much tell the level of that league this year by the fact that the two teams who have been deducted points are still outside of the bottom 3.

[Roo1976]

14 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

He hasn't got a plan when teams come on to us because :

a) We don't give a shit about other teams, how they play, what tactics they use etc

and 

b) We only have a passing interest in what they do at set pieces

Because :

c) Our system is the best, trust the system, we will be brave, therefore we will win.

It's sad but true.  If we spent a little time on the tactics of other teams, maybe we wouldn't throw away so many winning positions.

nope, we throw away winning positions because were fannying around passing for the sake of yet another aimless pass. Just this 1st half against Leiecster,we won a corner in i think about 27 mins and within 6 passes it was......................bac pass the k at the keepers feet. For crying out aloud we need to move the ball quicker and take on the opposition rather than collect the pass and pass it back to where its just come from .Be progressive and dictate the game rather than be  meek and weak,cause weve all seen the sloppy passes that drop us right in the shit ,and it happens far to frequently under this manager and the style of football. Don't get me wrong ive loved the fact that weve won alot more this season and were almost in the hunt for the big return,but not wanting to put a downer on it, can anyone really believe we can win a playoff final,or indeed reach one ?

[Bakovnetski]

6 hours ago, bpsaint said:

If he can’t get promoted this season, with the level of players available to him, then there’s no way he’s going to manage it next season with a weaker squad.

Our players really aren't that good you know.

[AlexLaw76]

He is simply not good enough.

quite obvious

[Fabrice29]

6 hours ago, bpsaint said:

If he can’t get promoted this season, with the level of players available to him, then there’s no way he’s going to manage it next season with a weaker squad.

This narrative being rightly put in it's place tonight. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Fabrice29 said:

This narrative being rightly put in it's place tonight. 

What, that Martin is managing at level beyond him?

[Fabrice29]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

He is simply not good enough.

quite obvious

So desperate to blame him. And only him. Proper commitment to your personality on here.

[Harry_SFC]

Pull the trigger now. Disgraceful display.

[Fabrice29]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

What, that Martin is managing at level beyond him?

There is very few of our squad that gets into the Leicester team, it's on show tonight, it was on show last season too. Could quite easily argue Leeds squad too. The idea that we should be easily getting promoted with this squad is and always has been strange. We're rightly in contention and will go into the play offs with a good chance.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Fabrice29 said:

There is very few of our squad that gets into the Leicester team, it's on show tonight, it was on show last season too. Could quite easily argue Leeds squad too. The idea that we should be easily getting promoted with this squad is and always has been strange. We're rightly in contention and will go into the play offs with a good chance.

Are you defending tonight's shit show, or the Cardiff shit show, or the Millwall shit show?

This season has not been good enough in any stretch.

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

There is very few of our squad that gets into the Leicester team, it's on show tonight, it was on show last season too. Could quite easily argue Leeds squad too. The idea that we should be easily getting promoted with this squad is and always has been strange. We're rightly in contention and will go into the play offs with a good chance.

Martin is managing at a level beyond him,

it is 5-0 with 10 mins to play.

we have been appalling defensively all season

average manager

Edited April 23 by AlexLaw76

[Colinjb]

Almost a whole year with the squad, and learned nothing. 

Get rid of him.

[Block41 Saint]

Sack him now. He's a fucking woeful manager. 

[trousers]

6 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

There is very few of our squad that gets into the Leicester team, it's on show tonight, it was on show last season too. Could quite easily argue Leeds squad too. The idea that we should be easily getting promoted with this squad is and always has been strange. We're rightly in contention and will go into the play offs with a good chance.

Edited April 23 by trousers

[Katalinic]

One trick pony. Woeful at in-game management.

[Fabrice29]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

Martin is managing at a lev beyond him,

it is 5-0 with 10 mins to play.

we have been appalling defensively all season

average manager

Our best defender is being made to look like he runs in treacle against both their wide players tonight. There is different levels to these squads.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, trousers said:

I can only think he's another family member of the manager, akin to Jones family we had on here.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Fabrice29 said:

Our best defender is being made to look like he runs in treacle against both their wide players tonight. There is different levels to these squads.

Different level in managers too.

[Dman]

Another poor appointment by SR however you wanna dress it up. 

Much like Jones, it was obvious at the time he wasn’t the man to take us up. 

[James]

Got to say this is looking like the wrong choice.

[JRM]

Must be sacked tonight 

[Saint_clark]

Time to sack him and hit the Big Sam button. Get us organised, disciplined and utilising Adams strength surrounded by pace. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

9 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

So desperate to blame him.

It’s his team, just as it was  Nathan Jones’ team, and before that Ian Branfoot’s team. The buck stops with the manager & tonight was unacceptable. End of. 

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I can only think he's another family member of the manager, akin to Jones family we had on here.

I guess we might find out sooner rather than later... 

[Harry_SFC]

He subbed on Manning and we immediately conceded 3 goals. Yet again more appalling in game management.

[Lighthouse]

It'd be madness to sack him now but he seriously needs to make something out of the playoffs. 

[Harry_SFC]

Now Wilcox isn't around we all know Rasmus isn't afraid to change the manager..

[James]

11 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

So desperate to blame him. And only him. Proper commitment to your personality on here.

Who else should be blamed? Whether or not we have as good a side as Leicester is a debate but we shouldn’t be shipping 5 in a game against a promotion rival. Hasn’t learned how to tighten us up all season and wasn’t capable of it with Swansea or MK Dons. Surely it’s obvious this is a system failing rather than personnel.

[Dman]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

It'd be madness to sack him now but he seriously needs to make something out of the playoffs. 

Yeah I can’t believe there is a serious soul who thinks we should sack him now.. however, I’d pull the trigger a minute after the playoffs regardless of what happens.

[sfc4prem]

Why did he being on Manning, pray-tell?

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Dman said:

Yeah I can’t believe there is a serious soul who thinks we should sack him now.. however, I’d pull the trigger a minute after the playoffs regardless of what happens.

100% this

[Sheaf Saint]

Just now, James said:

Who else should be blamed? Whether or not we have as good a side as Leicester is a debate but we shouldn’t be shipping 5 in a game against a promotion rival. Hasn’t learned how to tighten us up all season and wasn’t capable of it with Swansea or MK Dons. Surely it’s obvious this is a system failing rather than personnel.

Obvious to most, but not all, it seems.

This is just pathetic tonight. The starting lineup, and the in-game management have been shocking. Martin is out of his depth. He will never get us promoted (can't see us winning the playoffs in this form and with the injuries we've got), so why stick with him?

[Fabrice29]

4 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I can only think he's another family member of the manager, akin to Jones family we had on here.

I tried pointing out during Jones time here the players were responsible and maybe a bunch of players who consistently concede goals and lose games of football, whatever the manager or style, might be a bigger issue than the manager. I've been banging that drum for quite a while now. I don't think it's possible to be related to all of them. This one has got us winning on a regular basis though and is still well within a chance of fulfilling the brief at the start of the season.

[S-Clarke]

We have now conceded 66 goals.

The team nearest to us who has conceded more (74) is Blackburn in 19th.

With KWP, THB, Bednarak and Downes in and around the squad that is quite simply not good enough and demonstrates a pretty clear flaw in whatever approach he is trying to adopt here. It's failed.

If we stick with him and inevitably lose our best players and goals in the summer, we will be involved in the bottom half of this league - not the top.

Edited April 23 by S-Clarke

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It’s his team, just as it was  Nathan Jones’ team, and before that Ian Branfoot’s team. The buck stops with the manager & tonight was unacceptable. End of. 

66% possession 😎

[Saint NL]

Bit earlier than usual today

 

With an extra 

[Daft Kerplunk]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

It'd be madness to sack him now but he seriously needs to make something out of the playoffs. 

The saddest thing for me is that he just doesn’t appear to be able to adapt. I’m all for people having a good crack at it and I think that Russball is hampered somewhat by the level of players we have but therein lies the problem; play to your strengths and get the best out of the personnel. This could also be a Sports Republic/leadership issue as we still have delusions of grandeur. 

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Fabrice29 said:

I tried pointing out during Jones time here the players were responsible and maybe a bunch of players who consistently concede goals and lose games of football, whatever the manager or style, might be a bigger issue than the manager. I've been banging that drum for quite a while now. I don't think it's possible to be related to all of them. This one has got us winning on a regular basis though and is still well within a chance of fulfilling the brief at the start of the season.

I don't buy this waffle.

THB, Manning, Downes, Smallbone, Brooks, Fraser, Bree - they are pretty fresh to this club in terms of regularly playing, so any scar tissue bollocks is nonsense. This is Martin's team, martin's tactics and martin's coaching. It's all out there for everyone to see.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Fuck me, if this twats managing us at Fratton next season I dread to think what’ll happen. It’ll make Redknapp’s bottlers look like the bravest of the brave.