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#Spygate

St Chalet

By St Chalet
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Posted by Miltonaggro,

Apologies for the war and peace post chaps – bear with or scroll past.  For the last week I have been trying to provide a steer on here as to why I think this silly episode will be concluded with a fine (in the region of £200k) and / or a possible future points deduction (though if I were advising Saints I would appeal this).  Simply that talk of forfeit and bans opens a legal can of worms that is well beyond the remit and scope of both the EFL and / or Middlesbrough FC. The best way to get

What a well thought out post. Thank you

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obelisk

obelisk

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Which they have within the allotted timeframe.

Indeed so we've gone full circle.

Who's to know that other teams haven't made full use of Boro's public training facility without being so daft as to get caught though? 🤫

hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Then becomes his word vs the club. Why should they favour his word unless he had stronger evidence than his statement?

Yes depends if there are specifics in the statement that can be substantiated. Although I wonder if we will outright lie if we have done it before or consider it better to fess up and plead mitigation (ie it was a couple of people in the analysis team who have now been sacked.) 

Edited by hypochondriac
coalman

coalman

Posted
Posted (edited)

#KarenFCForumWatch

In news that will surprise no one Saints fans are vile, Fabrice29 has emerged as an unlikely hero and nobody messes with Karen Gibson, the Don of the northeast. A legal opinion agreeing with a forum poster has been taken as the final and conclusive proof that things are going their way. Many people are angry.

Edited by coalman
  • Haha 7
Fabrice29

Fabrice29

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Zorba said:

Allegedly

Okay good for you. I’ve been quite happy to state it as fact from the moment the Boro manager laughed in the Sky reporters face when he said allegedly before the first leg.

Edited by Fabrice29
badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Well I certainly don't want to end up as a 

hqdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=aa1b4245b8d

If snybody has ever watched Forged in Fire, I was thinking more along the lines of......

image.jpeg.3a636be79585be8e91fb21a3cc954f3e.jpeg

  • Like 1
Zorba

Zorba

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Fabrice29 said:

Okay good for you. I’ve been quite happy to state it as fact from the moment the Boro laughed in the Sky reporters face when he said allegedly before the first leg.

Must be true then.

  • Haha 1
The Kraken

The Kraken

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Agreed but the written statement from the ex analyst (and the betting guy on here who said he knows we've done it before) does rather suggest this isn't the first time 

I know the leaks have no guarantee of accuracy in them anyway, but in addition I haven’t seen anything from the leaks that says we have deliberately sent scouts up to view training specifically within 72 hours of the game. Just that we have sent scouts. Which, it would seem, we are somewhat within bounds to do.

The other clubs things is, IMO, something that can only happen further down the line.  No way at this stage to say it didn’t happen, but burden of proof much harder to meet.

  • Like 1
CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Zorba said:

Allegedly.

Not really no, being that it is known that we have accepted and are not contesting the charge. We are just offering mitigation or "context" in the clubs words.

Edited by CB Fry
  • Like 1
beatlesaint

beatlesaint

Posted
Posted (edited)

The irony is all this has been playing out across the media etc yet absolutely nobody has any idea what defence or case Southampton FC are going to put forward at the hearing.

It's a bit like when you watch an ongoing Court Case. You get all the evidence from the prosecution and think to yourself "yeah, this is open and shut guilty, throw the book at him" Then the Defence put their case and you think "oh, hang on a minute......"

Despite the fact that yes we are in the wrong, yes we have broken a rule, the fact remains that Southampton FC playing a straight bat and remaining silent bar 2 x "holding statements" has probably infuriated the media who can only report one side of this, and especially Middlesborough even more.  

Edited by beatlesaint
  • Like 2
LGTL

LGTL

Posted
Posted

For all this perceived extra spying, it’s interesting how no other club has actually come forward with anything concrete whatsoever. It’s all, unsurprisingly, come from Middlesbrough, their hacks, and a disgruntled ex-employee, who conveniently, was previously employed by Boro. Why aren’t other Championship clubs frothing at the mouth about this exactly? 

  • Like 3
Sheaf Saint

Sheaf Saint

Posted
Posted
Just now, LGTL said:

For all this perceived extra spying, it’s interesting how no other club has actually come forward with anything concrete whatsoever. It’s all, unsurprisingly, come from Middlesbrough, their hacks, and a disgruntled ex-employee, who conveniently, was previously employed by Boro. Why aren’t other Championship clubs frothing at the mouth about this exactly? 

Probably because they are all guilty of the same thing and are quite sensibly trying to avoid any scrutiny themselves.

People in glass houses etc....

  • Like 4
The Wyvern

The Wyvern

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, egg said:

I haven't dissected what you've said. Others have, and they're correct.

The rule is that we're not allowed to observe what they're doing in training within 72 hours of the game. It's black and white. How easy they make it to breach, what we actually saw, what we did with that, how it impacted the game, anything, is wholly irrelevant. How people can't see the simplicity of that I don't know. 

Surely that is relevant, as we’re not contesting we broke the efl law, but we are going to load up with every possible mitigation under the sun? 

CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

You keep taking parts of what I said out of context. You aren't taking it as a whole. What did I say that is incorrect?

Aren't you taking the rules out of context by twatting on with whataboutety around if it happened on Southampton Common?

Edited by CB Fry
  • Like 2
hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

I know the leaks have no guarantee of accuracy in them anyway, but in addition I haven’t seen anything from the leaks that says we have deliberately sent scouts up to view training specifically within 72 hours of the game. Just that we have sent scouts. Which, it would seem, we are somewhat within bounds to do.

The other clubs things is, IMO, something that can only happen further down the line.  No way at this stage to say it didn’t happen, but burden of proof much harder to meet.

If that is the case-not sure it is but if- then no chance are we kicked out for one instance of spying by an intern. 

The Wyvern

The Wyvern

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, LGTL said:

For all this perceived extra spying, it’s interesting how no other club has actually come forward with anything concrete whatsoever. It’s all, unsurprisingly, come from Middlesbrough, their hacks, and a disgruntled ex-employee, who conveniently, was previously employed by Boro. Why aren’t other Championship clubs frothing at the mouth about this exactly? 

And if they had caught us spying previously why have they not complained to the efl about it at the time? 

  • Like 2
benjii

benjii

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think a category error that is being proliferated is the idea that "expulsion from the play-offs" is a possible sanction.

The play-offs are part of the league so what are you going to do if you set that precedent and then someone does the same thing during the regular season? Kick them out of the league? That's not proportionate, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should be expelled from the EFL.

So, if they want to impose a sporting sanction it has to be either:

- points deduction 

- forfeit a match 

- transfer embargo etc. (unlikely to apply as this is nothing to do with transfers / financial dealings)

So, if they decide on a points deduction it is either suspended for next season (or some other future season) or apllied retrospectively and big enough that we would have finished below Hull for it to be relevant. That seems unlikely. But if that was applied, the logical thing would be for Wrexham to be promoted and have a crack at the play-offs, not for Boro to be put through. No time for that, and we would appeal, delaying things further. I suppose they could just cancel the final and say Hull are promoted but I expect the other play-off clubs would not like that.

If they decide we should forfeit the first leg - say 3-0 - then that makes a mockery of the second leg, which would obviously have been a completely different match. We would appeal, things would be delayed further and it would also mean they have to go back and reverse other results, if the offence is found elsewhere, which again messes up the league table and potentially causes all sorts of knock-on issues.

So, in summary, I think we'll either get:

- exonerated, if there is some bombshell lack of liability we don't know about 

Or

- a fine, and/or a suspended/future (depending on promotion or not) points deduction of something like 3 or 6.

Whilst the panel is independent, they need to think about the proportionality and practical enforceability of any sanction, and they need to think about the broader context and framework in which the competitions operate in order to do that.

Edited by benjii
  • Like 3
scumbag

scumbag

Posted
Posted

'You cant tone down the severity of what Southampton have done...'

Well presumably you could tone it down the point of irrelevance if the very same behavior had taken place earlier in time? That's the strange bit for me, the moral preaching element here.  How can these dummies has such a visceral reaction to a practice that can occur within a timeframe?!  

If it transpires that Saltys train was just a bit late and it knocked him under the 72hrs, then maybe a donation to a local childrens hospital (thinking £500 should do it), and we all move on.

  • Like 4
LGTL

LGTL

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, The Wyvern said:

And if they had caught us spying previously why have they not complained to the efl about it at the time? 

Most Championship clubs have extremely secure training grounds. Look at Staplewood, it’s easier to spy on Winchester Prison. So we can conclude it either;

A) never happened at all

B) happened legally before 72 hours

C) we climbed trees/fences/gates or used drones, and just never got caught. 

Edited by LGTL
  • Like 1
hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, The Wyvern said:

And if they had caught us spying previously why have they not complained to the efl about it at the time? 

Because they weren't aware of it obviously. Not sure why people keep bringing this point up. 

  • Like 1
AlexLaw76

AlexLaw76

Posted
Posted

Reading online how the Club's (Saints) behaviour since this all came out, along with Tonda's, is nothing short of 'disgraceful'

I mean, WTF. The Club and Tonda have said very little other than pretty much No Comment as there is an investigation and working with the EFL

Other than being publicly flogged, what do the baying masses expect the club/Tonda to do?

  • Like 2
Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Aren't you taking the rules out of context by twatting on with whataboutety around if it happened on Southampton Common?

I didn't mention Southampton Common.

CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, The Wyvern said:

And if they had caught us spying previously why have they not complained to the efl about it at the time? 

Probably because they haven't "caught us spying before" but maybe they reviewed CCTV subsequently since this came out. If my next door neighbour got broken into yesterday I'd be checking things in my house/garden to a greater extent today than I was last week. Anyone would.

It's easier to find something if you are looking for it.

Cuddles

Cuddles

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, St Chalet said:

Do we know if Boro trained yesterday? As they have no scheduled fixture in the next 72 hours anyone can go observe.

Too soon?

Are Karen FCk off at the minute? Probably still recovering from exhaustion.

Morse

Morse

Posted
Posted

I think we're all in danger of getting as obsessed as Gibson with this issue. We're not getting thrown out, we will be fined, we may get a points deduction for next season. 

Meanwhile buy your tickets, book your travel and look forward to WEMBLEY!!

  • Like 3
hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said:

CB Fry did

Plus what other evidence would there be apart from CCTV?

After my initial post. Witness statements from staff at other clubs, phone records, bank statements and maybe someone does have something on cctv if its a more recent game. 

  • Like 1
hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
Just now, Morse said:

I think we're all in danger of getting as obsessed as Gibson with this issue. We're not getting thrown out, we will be fined, we may get a points deduction for next season. 

Meanwhile buy your tickets, book your travel and look forward to WEMBLEY!!

Already done that. 

benjii

benjii

Posted
Posted
Just now, Saint NL said:

When Boro line up against Pompey in the Championship next season, who do you want to win? 

It's a tricky one....

0-0 draw with 10 red cards. 

  • Like 2
Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, LGTL said:

For all this perceived extra spying, it’s interesting how no other club has actually come forward with anything concrete whatsoever. It’s all, unsurprisingly, come from Middlesbrough, their hacks, and a disgruntled ex-employee, who conveniently, was previously employed by Boro. Why aren’t other Championship clubs frothing at the mouth about this exactly? 

They’ll have no proof whatsoever, are probably on holiday now, and know that in the grand scheme of things it wouldn’t affect their league position. The question is would they be kicking off had they been in this one off crucial game and the team instead of Middlesbrough we were spying on and then beat. I imagine the answer would be yes. For all this slagging off of Middlesbrough, this forum would be in meltdown had Portsmouth spied on us and then knocked us out of the playoffs, so I find this Middlesbrough pony a bit disingenuous from some of our supporters. 
 

People keep posting that we didn’t gain an advantage. True, but only because we got caught. I’m not a lawyer but “yes we tried to gain an advantage, but we’re so useless at it, we didn’t”, doesn’t strike me as carrying much weight as a defence. Neither is “it was legal an hour ago”, or “they should have made it harder for us to watch”. I’m just glad the likes of Soggy & MLG aren’t on our legal team. 
 

If it was a simple case of a lone wolf, it would be done by now. If it was a half arsed Billy Smart circus cock up, it would be done by now. I’ve no doubt if they find on the balance of probabilities it was an organised attempt to gain an unfair advantage, we will be chucked out. Maybe we could appeal that on the basis, this is part of the league season, and we wouldn’t be chucked out the league for it, but the longer it goes on, the more we’re in jeopardy imo.

  • Like 3
mss636

mss636

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Saint NL said:

When Boro line up against Pompey in the Championship next season, who do you want to win? 

It's a tricky one....

Can we have a meteor hit the stadium wiping them all out? If not I may er on the side of Pompey but it will be close. Right now I actually hate karenborough more.

hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

They’ll have no proof whatsoever, are probably on holiday now, and know that in the grand scheme of things it wouldn’t affect their league position. The question is would they be kicking off had they been in this one off crucial game and the team instead of Middlesbrough we were spying on and then beat. I imagine the answer would be yes. For all this slagging off of Middlesbrough, this forum would be in meltdown had Portsmouth spied on us and then knocked us out of the playoffs, so I find this Middlesbrough pony a bit disingenuous from some of our supporters. 
 

People keep posting that we didn’t gain an advantage. True, but only because we got caught. I’m not a lawyer but “yes we tried to gain an advantage, but we’re so useless at it, we didn’t”, doesn’t strike me as carrying much weight as a defence. Neither is “it was legal an hour ago”, or “they should have made it harder for us to watch”. I’m just glad the likes of Soggy & MLG aren’t on our legal team. 
 

If it was a simple case of a lone wolf, it would be done by now. If it was a half arsed Billy Smart circus cock up, it would be done by now. I’ve no doubt if they find on the balance of probabilities it was an organised attempt to gain an unfair advantage, we will be chucked out. Maybe we could appeal that on the basis, this is part of the league season, and we wouldn’t be chucked out the league for it, but the longer it goes on, the more we’re in jeopardy imo.

We know it goes on until Tuesday at the latest either way. 

Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Witness statements from staff at other clubs, phone records, bank statements 

Witness statements - They didn't report them at the time. ID lineups aren't overly reliable within hours of an incident, let alone weeks or months later!

Phone records/bank statements- How would other clubs have those regarding Saints staff? If you mean the EFL, this isn't a police investigation, there is no obligation for those to be produced.

  • Like 2
Toadhall Saint

Toadhall Saint

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Indeed so we've gone full circle.

Who's to know that other teams haven't made full use of Boro's public training facility without being so daft as to get caught though? 🤫

Mitigating evidence is the way here. 

coalman

coalman

Posted
Posted

#KarenFCForumWatch

A lot of people are certain about a lot of things they couldn't possibly know for sure. It turns out that 2 + 2 = "Gibbo" in a shock reverberating with mathematicians the world over. As more KarenFC fans gather online the rage is reaching a fever pitch to the extent that Samaritans have cancelled all annual leave for the next few weeks. A nation watches on. Concerned.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, benjii said:

I think a category error that is being proliferated is the idea that "expulsion from the play-offs" is a possible sanction.

The play-offs are part of the league so what are you going to do if you set that precedent and then someone does the same thing during the regular season? Kick them out of the league? That's not proportionate, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should be expelled from the EFL.

So, if they want to impose a sporting sanction it has to be either:

- points deduction 

- forfeit a match 

- transfer embargo etc. (unlikely to apply as this is nothing to do with transfers / financial dealings)

So, if they decide on a points deduction it is either suspended for next season (or some other future season) or apllied retrospectively and big enough that we would have finished below Hull for it to be relevant. That seems unlikely. But if that was applied, the logical thing would be for Wrexham to be promoted and have a crack at the play-offs, not for Boro to be put through. No time for that, and we would appeal, delaying things further. I suppose they could just cancel the final and say Hull are promoted but I expect the other play-off clubs would not like that.

If they decide we should forfeit the first leg - say 3-0 - then that makes a mockery of the second leg, which would obviously have been a completely different match. We would appeal, things would be delayed further and it would also mean they have to go back and reverse other results, if the offence is found elsewhere, which again messes up the league table and potentially causes all sorts of knock-on issues.

So, in summary, I think we'll either get:

- exonerated, if there is some bombshell lack of liability we don't know about 

Or

- a fine, and/or a suspended/future (depending on promotion or not) points deduction of something like 3 or 6.

Whilst the panel is independent, they need to think about the proportionality and practical enforceability of any sanction, and they need to think about the broader context and framework in which the competitions operate in order to do that.

Great post.

Also, as a principle, pretty much all sporting punishments are thrown forwards, not retrospectively. In genral it's the future that gets changed not the past. 

The AFCON final thing is an exception. And I suppose ineligible players results in forfeit of a past match. But not sure this situation is analogous to either of those. As long as we are successful in making it an isolated case that we can argue had a negligible impact vs other transgressions (financial irregularities impacting the entire league over an entire season). We need to make feel like a single game infringement worthy of a fine. Hopefully we can do that 

hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Witness statements - They didn't report them at the time. ID lineups aren't overly reliable within hours of an incident, let alone weeks or months later!

Phone records/bank statements- How would other clubs have those regarding Saints staff? If you mean the EFL, this isn't a police investigation, there is no obligation for those to be produced.

Witness statements-They may not have realised the significance of any sighting at the time. 

There is no obligation but if we are adamant that nothing took place and this other analyst is adamant that Mr salt was spying prior to a particular game then you'd think we would be keen to prove our innocence so that the balance of probabilities goes in our favour. All speculation obviously. 

Midfield_General

Midfield_General

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Okay good for you. I’ve been quite happy to state it as fact from the moment the Boro manager laughed in the Sky reporters face when he said allegedly before the first leg.

You also stated as fact that managers and tactics aren’t important to the results of professional football teams, to be fair

  • Like 2
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