Should Saints sack Tonda?

[saintant]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

If you get caught diving to win a penalty, do you get to then keep that penalty?

Nah, you get to take it and if you score a goal you've done so by cheating. That goal scored through cheating could cost another side relegation. 

[saintant]

Glad to see Lighthouse finds the truth funny 🙂

[CB Fry]

8 minutes ago, saintant said:

No idea what you're on about.

My point is the people who can't handle "the shark infested waters" of football might just be the bedwetters crying about how hard done by we are because the independent board had "Middlesbrough" people on it.

Man the fuck up and move on.

Edited 7 hours ago by CB Fry

[SaintLondon]

Firstly, I highly doubt this was some sort of Bond villain operation carried out entirely alone. Maybe he sent the messages, but I would be amazed if this wasn’t more widespread internally, or at the very least something senior people turned a blind eye to. Who exactly was signing off the expenses? These analysts weren’t funding trips out of their own pockets and I somehow doubt Tonda was popping to Tesco to withdraw cash for covert surveillance operations.

Anyway, I digress. Where is this same outrage and these calls for bans when it comes to Chelsea’s hierarchy or Leicester’s top brass for cooking the books? That is outright financial cheating. The reality is that much of the anger here stems from the fact this cost us a playoff place - and I completely understand that anger - but some people are acting as though Tonda personally murdered the club’s integrity forever.

And honestly, there’s a scenario where the club could position this differently. They could say: he was wrong, we accept the punishment, lessons have been learned, but we’re not going to completely destroy a man’s career because he was overly competitive and pushed things too far.

There’s also quite a lot of revisionism going on now. Some people seem to be enjoying climbing onto the moral high ground after the event. It’s simultaneously entertaining and exhausting.

I’m obviously playing devil’s advocate to an extent, but I do think there needs to be a bit more realism and perspective around all of this. It’s football. Everyone needs to calm down slightly and let things play out over time rather than treating this like the crime of the century.

Edited 7 hours ago by SaintLondon

[saintant]

Just now, CB Fry said:

My point is the people who can't handle "the shark infested waters" of football might just be the bedwetters crying about how hard done by we are because the independentboard had Middlesbrough people on it.

Man the fuck up and move on.

Let's all move on because the forum copper has said we should. Different opinions are allowed on a forum.

[Lighthouse]

Just now, saintant said:

Glad to see Lighthouse finds the truth funny 🙂

I'm just picturing a world in which a ref gives a penalty, then gets called to the VAR screen, reviews the incident and says, "after review, there is absolutely no contact on the attacking player and he definitely dived, but it would be ridiculously harsh to take away the penalty, so I'll let them have it anyway."

The thought of that happening at Anfield if Bruno Fernandes dived just tickled me, that's all.

[egg]

27 minutes ago, saintant said:

They can use the word integrity in football as many times as they like but most of us agree there is none these days. Just because they use the word doesn't make it so. We can either be an outlier and play to the rules (and that means all of them so no diving, feigning injury, stealing yards at throw-ins etc) or we can stand up for ourselves and play the game that everyone else does. There are too many people getting on their high horses and taking the moral high ground. They act as though football is a clean sport. It's not, it's one of the dirtiest cesspits so those who don't like the fact might be better off finding another sport. We were shat on by the punishment and I don't buy the suggestion it had to fit the crime - few if any punishments in football have ever fitted the crime so why are we treated differently.

There isn't. There are people who view what's happened objectively, not the way you want them to. That's different. 

[trousers]

6 minutes ago, SaintLondon said:

There’s also quite a lot of revisionism going on now. Some people seem to be enjoying climbing onto the moral high ground after the event. It’s simultaneously entertaining and exhausting.

People on Saintsweb acting all morally superior....? Nah, never seen that on here before and suspect we never will....

Edited 7 hours ago by trousers

[saintant]

1 minute ago, egg said:

There isn't. There are people who view what's happened objectively, not the way you want them to. That's different. 

So no room for discussion, those people are correct because objectively means based on facts. How do they know all the facts out of interest. 

[egg]

12 minutes ago, saintant said:

Nah, you get to take it and if you score a goal you've done so by cheating. That goal scored through cheating could cost another side relegation. 

And funnily enough against the other team involved, not some other team, which makes the whole "why did Boro go through when we cheated against Boro" I keep hearing argument a tad odd. 

On your main point, I'm sure even you agree that there's a world of difference between a player instinctively going down and the ref giving the wrong decision, and a clubs manager coercing a kid to go on a planned spying mission, wearing a disguise. 

[egg]

12 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

My point is the people who can't handle "the shark infested waters" of football might just be the bedwetters crying about how hard done by we are because the independent board had "Middlesbrough" people on it.

Man the fuck up and move on.

Tis the way of the world CB; no accountability, always someone else's fault, always someone to blame, it wasn't that bad, whataboutery, etc.

[saintant]

Just now, egg said:

And funnily enough against the other team involved, not some other team, which makes the whole "why did Boro go through when we cheated against Boro" I keep hearing argument a tad odd. 

On your main point, I'm sure even you agree that there's a world of difference between a player instinctively going down and the ref giving the wrong decision, and a clubs manager coercing a kid to go on a planned spying mission, wearing a disguise. 

I don't think you can grade cheating. The generic stuff like diving can still potentially have enormous financial costs and implications to the club cheated by the dive. Maybe you could argue more so because most ex pros have come out and stated that the advantage gained by spying is miniscule. I don't condone either by the way.

[edprice1984]

Cheating is bad. (Yes there are different levels of cheating)

We cheated.

Tonda apparently orchestrated the cheating.

Tonda also was extremely effective as manager and led us to 21 league games unbeaten and a FA Cup Semi Final.

The FA are investigating and may make a ruling on whether Tonda gets a ban. If he gets a ban, we will sack him - almost certainly for Gross misconduct, meaning a reduced or no pay-out.

If he isn't banned, the club will need to understand the position of the players and whether he still has their confidence and trust. If not, we will sack him.

Personally, I think he will need the vast majority of the players to actively want him to stay for us to keep him. 

There is a quite a bit of me that thinks we should keep him, get the supporters, players and whole club to develop a siege mentality and use that to go hard at the league next season. The question is whether we as supporters (and club more generally) can be bothered with all the additional attention and 'banter' from outside? 

Sports Republic have another option, sack Tonda, employ a high profile, experienced manager and give him a war chest - don't sell players (unless we get massive bids) and go out and buy Peretz, Larin etc. Explicitly state that we are aiming to win the league. 

No doubt it will be a total mess, drag on far too long and come August we will be a mess once again.

 

[egg]

6 minutes ago, saintant said:

So no room for discussion, those people are correct because objectively means based on facts. How do they know all the facts out of interest. 

I don't read your posts as discussion. You have this view that we've been really hard done by, have suffered the mother of stitch up, and only a real fan would agree with that. That's not discussion, it's an entitled Gen Z attitude which boils my piss. 

[saintant]

1 minute ago, egg said:

I don't read your posts as discussion. You have this view that we've been really hard done by, have suffered the mother of stitch up, and only a real fan would agree with that. That's not discussion, it's an entitled Gen Z attitude which boils my piss. 

Apologies for the piss boiling. Many on here do the same to me but I guess it is a forum when all is said and done.

[OldNick]

1 minute ago, edprice1984 said:

 

Sports Republic have another option, sack Tonda, employ a high profile, experienced manager and give him a war chest - don't sell players (unless we get massive bids) and go out and buy Peretz, Larin etc. Explicitly state that we are aiming to win the league. 

No doubt it will be a total mess, drag on far too long and come August we will be a mess once again.

 

Sounds wonderful but there is the tricky subject of finance. We cant keep all those players, we need money to come in to cover our losses. I suspect some players would have gone even if we had gone up.

[CB Fry]

18 minutes ago, saintant said:

Let's all move on because the forum copper has said we should. Different opinions are allowed on a forum.

Maybe find another forum because the shark infested waters of Saintsweb are clearly not to your taste.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, saintant said:

I don't think you can grade cheating. The generic stuff like diving can still potentially have enormous financial costs and implications to the club cheated by the dive. Maybe you could argue more so because most ex pros have come out and stated that the advantage gained by spying is miniscule. I don't condone either by the way.

That's like saying you can't grade stealing.

You walk into a jewellery shop and instinctively nick a silver ring, it's stealing. You walk in and nick all the diamond rings and out of the window, in a planned theft, it's stealing.

Both stealing, but different grades, and get a different penalty. 

This advantage gained point is nonsense. The panel were spot on when they said "sporting advantage is different from sporting success". They ruled that an "advantage" is gained the second a club compromises an opponent's privacy with the intent to cheat—regardless of whether they actually go on to win, lose, or play poorly on match day. 

In truth, who knows what our kid saw. Whilst Tonda testifies that it was nothing , his credibility was shot by that point so the panel wouldn't have believed anything he said.

Regardless, the decision was that we were seeking an advantage to help us sew up the tie and get to Wembley for the big one. That, on any objective assessment, is unarguable. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, egg said:

That's like saying you can't grade stealing.

You walk into a jewellery shop and instinctively nick a silver ring, it's stealing. You walk in and nick all the diamond rings and out of the window, in a planned theft, it's stealing.

Both stealing, but different grades, and get a different penalty. 

This advantage gained point is nonsense. The panel were spot on when they said "sporting advantage is different from sporting success". They ruled that an "advantage" is gained the second a club compromises an opponent's privacy with the intent to cheat—regardless of whether they actually go on to win, lose, or play poorly on match day. 

In truth, who knows what our kid saw. Whilst Tonda testifies that it was nothing , his credibility was shot by that point so the panel wouldn't have believed anything he said.

Regardless, the decision was that we were seeking an advantage to help us sew up the tie and get to Wembley for the big one. That, on any objective assessment, is unarguable. 

"Seeking an advantage"

We did that when we went and spent tens of millions on better players. 

[S-Clarke]

4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

"Seeking an advantage"

We did that when we went and spent tens of millions on better players. 

Which begs the question as to why the hell we decided to partake in this sort of activity in the first place. We already had legitimate advantage from a financial standpoint.

I get all the 'try every angle to gain an advantage' bit - but that's only truly relevant when you don't have the money to compete, so you have to find other ways. We had the money to compete, we didn't need to find other ways.

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

"Seeking an advantage"

We did that when we went and spent tens of millions on better players. 

Relating that to our case, when McLaren stole Ferraris data to attempt to get an advantage, they had Hamilton and Alonso (the reigning world champion) as their drivers.

Just having the best drivers/players wasn't enough for them, they felt the need to spy to gain a sporting advantage. 

The panel referenced the McLaren case for good reason. 

 

[qwertyell]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Yep, definitely a fascinating insight into some of our supporters...

 

Yes. I don't care about the morality of it, nor think spying on training is anywhere near the same seriousness of offence as doping, for example.

We haven't been punished as though it were. 

What was your point?

 

[trousers]

1 minute ago, qwertyell said:

Yes. I don't care about the morality of it, nor think spying on training is anywhere near the same seriousness of offence as doping, for example.

We haven't been punished as though it were. 

What was your point?

 

I've never set out to make a valid point on here before and don't intend to start now...

[Saint86]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

Everyone involved is a duplicitous corrupt liar - everyone, the EFL, the independent panel, the FA to the young intern, Boro of course but also Parsons and SR - everyone is in the wrong and they all need punishment, recrimination, or just to be defied and rebelled against - fuck you EFL etc etc.

Everyone is in the wrong. Everyone.

Except one guy and you'll never believe who that is.

Tonda admitted doing it 🕵️‍

Edited 6 hours ago by Saint86

[saintant]

24 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Maybe find another forum because the shark infested waters of Saintsweb are clearly not to your taste.

Nah, I can deal with it ta.

[Saint86]

10 hours ago, Vancouver Saint said:

I'm astonished people think he should still stay on as manager. 100% he has to go. Not just because his position is untenable, but because ignorance of the law is no defence - and it's plain dumb stupidity that in this digital age when you can observe and analyse everything he thinks.

Do players that dive get sacked? When clubs like Everton, west brom, Leicester, forest overspend by tens - hundreds of millions are they forced to sacked all the related staff? Do they all get subsequent football banning orders?

We scouted some other teams training sessions inside an arbitrary window that doesn't exist in any other major league, we did it a handful of times... There is already the precedent of bielsa who did it for an entire season and did not get banned or sacked.

Edited 6 hours ago by Saint86

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Tonda admitted doing it 🕵️‍♂️

Yes, but, he/we failed to grasp the distinction between the intent to gain an advantage and getting one, and having maintained that no real harm was done, the panel viewed the club’s defence as an attempt to downplay a "top-down" operation, ultimately leading to our playoff expulsion. Absolute cock up all around. 

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Do players that dive get sacked? When clubs like Everton, west brom, Leicester, forest overspend by tens - hundreds of millions are they forced to sacked all the related staff? Do they all get subsequent football banning orders?

We scouted some other teams training sessions inside an arbitrary window that doesn't exist in any other major rule, we did it a handful of times... There is already the precedent of bielsa who did it for an entire season and did not get banned or sacked.

We have admitted to doing it a handful of times. What my cousins husband tells me is that we were well known for being prolific at it.

if you are unaware of the rules changes since Bielsa then, you should 

[Football Special]

1 hour ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

Without wanting to sound like a smart Alec, having "global reputation" doesn't put silverware in the cabinet. We've blown our image for decades so we might as well draw up the drawbridge and do what is best for us and that involves keeping a manager who yes made a mistake, but did something which is completely legal in his homeland.

I agree, i think Tonda's age and the fact he's only been a manager for a few months will count in his favour, as a "young offender" I'd argue he deserves more leeway than Bielsa who was an experienced manager of many years 

[AlexLaw76]

The mental gymnastics going on here, I can see why those on the Boro board thing this place is insane 

[Saint86]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The mental gymnastics going on here, I can see why those on the Boro board thing this place is insane 

Salt has far more years experience as an analyst than Eckert has as a manager 😌🙃

Should have known better, I'd say. We need to look after and protect junior and inexperienced staff like Tonda, 6months experience as a manager and he's been hung out to dry 😥

Edited 6 hours ago by Saint86

[Football Special]

48 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Maybe find another forum because the shark infested waters of Saintsweb are clearly not to your taste.

Come on , Saintsweb is more of a swim with dolphins experience 

[LeBizzier69]

Imagine what a non event this would have been 15-20 years ago.

Even the most problematic part, the handling of an intern, would have been a nothing. Most of us born in 70s, 80s and maybe 90s, and who worked in sales or results driven businesses, were probably asked to do things we weren’t comfortable with….admittedly not “cheating” as such, but things you wouldn’t insist on a youngster doing these days. 
 

[sadoldgit]

Given that the number of votes cast hasn’t changed a great deal, a lot of people have changed their minds from yes to no now they have some time to digest the situation.

We live in the age of cancel culture. Make a mistake and you are sacked, out of here, a Pyrrha. No question of any other outcome. No question of rehabilitation. Gone.

It was suggested by one poster that Boris Johnson was sacked over a piece of cake. He wasn’t. He lost his job because he was totally incompetent. He cocked up so many times that he was unable to form a Cabinet because he had lost the support of his party.

Tonda Eckert is not incompetent. Far from it. He is guilty though of carrying out a practice that some people think is the worst crime in football and others just laugh at because they can’t believe it is such a big deal here.

We have done the arguments to death and as with most threads are down to circular arguments again which is a shame because, for a time, this was the best thread here for many years.

As with most things there is no right or wrong, just differing opinions. It would make a pleasant change though if we all accepted that he had done wrong and has caused the club huge anguish, but with the club at heart rather than personal gain. He dragged us from a dispirited team fighting a relegation spot into a team fulfilling its potential and to the cusp of promotion. He gave us a team playing some of the best football we have seen in years.

In doing so he broke a rule so unimportant that no other league in the world has. He employed an analytical technique that is commonplace in his own country and in many other leagues in the world. It is called scouting the opposition. Strangely this isn’t seen as a problem in the EFL either, depending on when you do it.

So then, proportionality. Do you fire the best coach you have had in years, who has done his all to give us what we wanted, a team to be proud of and a real shot at promotion? Or do you take the PR hit, eat a large slice of humble pie and stand by your man instead of throwing him to the wolves?

Ask yourself this, if you go for the former who actually gets any benefit? Us or our opponents? Does the need to find someone to blame and to punish extend as far as seeing the club possibly end up with another dud manager (given our track record, a real possibility)

What point does it serve to sack him? As has been said, there is zero integrity in football. All clubs cheat in various ways. No one is going to suddenly have a higher opinion of the club if we do because a “crime” has been committed and our name is currently in the mud anyway. The idea that no one will want to sponsor us or play for us is frankly risible. Of course they will. Professional people make professional decision and will see this for what it is, a situation that has been blown up out of all proportion.

If it were multiple errors of judgement, fine, get rid. It wasn’t though and clearly the those at the club involved in this decision thought that it was no big deal if caught, which would have been more than just one man.

Spors and Eckert have shown that they are both good enough at their jobs to be worth fighting to keep. Maybe it is worth parking your need to add further punishment to the club, accept that people can make a big mistake but still be worth keeping faith with, swallow pride, find some level of forgiveness and stand by them.

Just an opinion.

[Oldandtired]

Has anybody actually thought about what happens if we do sack Eckert given SR's track record of managerial appointments?

Sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

41 minutes ago, trousers said:

I've never set out to make a valid point on here before and don't intend to start now. That doesn't mean it won't happen, just that, at various moment in time I may, or may not have an intention. Or not. 

That was dangerously definitive there.

Fixed it. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

Maybe find another forum because the shark infested waters of Saintsweb are clearly not to your taste.

That's no shark! That's a goldfish that someone's put a fin on! 🙂

[beatlesaint]

9 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

Has anybody actually thought about what happens if we do sack Eckert given SR's track record of managerial appointments?

Sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for.

Yes I have and it fills me with more dread than the backlash of keeping Tonda

[Saint Marky]

2 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

Has anybody actually thought about what happens if we do sack Eckert given SR's track record of managerial appointments?

Sometimes you have to be careful what you wish for.

I just want the club to have the best shot at automatic promotion next year, with our last year of parachute payments and a minus 4 start, that is going to be extremely difficult, especially with Burnley, Wolves and West Ham in a already very competitive league.

Yes Tonda was beyond stupid, in what little advantage the spying gained, but Tonda is best placed to achieve this. I don’t care about the abuse that other fans will spew our way, it will eventually fade and be forgotten if we get promoted. The million dollar question is would the players accept this, let’s all hope they do and we can keep this oven ready Premiership team together. A new manager and mass player exodus, well we all know the script don’t we…

[Nordic Saint]

9 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

That's no shark! That's a goldfish that someone's put a fin on! 🙂

And with the poll not going the way they wanted, it looks like that fin has fallen off and they're frantically flapping against the tide.

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

My point is the people who can't handle "the shark infested waters" of football might just be the bedwetters crying about how hard done by we are because the independent board had "Middlesbrough" people on it.

Man the fuck up and move on.

Wait until the FA ban him, they’ll be all out in force again. Bielsa wasn’t banned, we didn’t gain an advantage, a bloke on the FA meet “Gibbo” once, there’s an agenda against Saints, everyone does it daily and twice on a Thursday,  and the DFB wouldn’t have banned him in Germany. 

[saintant]

43 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The mental gymnastics going on here, I can see why those on the Boro board thing this place is insane 

Maybe you should read a very interesting article referenced by The Ugly Inside. It can be found on page 3 of the topic How About This!!!!!! It was written by Sir Nicholas Mostyn KC and, whilst he is a Saints fan, he undoubtedly knows more about legal matters than anyone else on this forum.  Suffice to say he is far from impressed with the handling/findings of the EFL and Commission who handed down the verdict and punishment nor is he satisfied with the handing and verdict of the appeal.

I'd take his view over yours on this.

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 minutes ago, Saint Marky said:

just want the club to have the best shot at automatic promotion next year, with our last year of parachute payments and a minus 4 start, that is going to be extremely difficult, especially with Burnley, Wolves and West Ham in a already very competitive league.

Whose fault is it that we’re starting on minus 4? 

[E_H_Saints]

I’d personally really appreciate some communication from the owner at this point. I understand they may be waiting for any sanctions or official outcomes, but from the outside it can feel more like buying time than showing leadership.

What’s needed now is for the owner to come forward, make it clear that everyone involved is being held accountable, and reassure supporters that strong action is being taken internally. Just as importantly, there needs to be a clear explanation of how the club plans to move forward and rebuild trust with the community, fans, players, and partners.

Open communication alone would help calm much of the ongoing noise surrounding the club. Right now, the silence is only increasing pressure and speculation, whereas showing leadership and transparency would allow people to start looking ahead instead of continuing to focus on the uncertainty.

 

 

 

[sfc4prem]

3 minutes ago, E_H_Saints said:

Open communication alone would help calm much of the ongoing noise surrounding the club.

Currently, the only noise around the club I can locate is no longer the press, but just this forum and (mainly Southampton fans or journalists e.g. Blackmore) on social media.

[Sarnia Cherie]

I hope the FA takes the decision on whether Eckert stays out of our hands. The supporters are divided and that's understandable. We had a run of dreadful managers, thanks to SR's expertise, so when Eckert arrived and things started to improve, it was like a lifebelt to a drowning man. We started to enjoy watching our team again, we started to look to the future, we started to hope. By rights we should be celebrating a return to the Premier League with £220m in the kitty and a fitting manager. Hasn't turned out quite like that and there is only one person to blame, Eckert. By his own admission he is responsible for the whole, sad and sorry mess. Some will put winning football matches front and centre and will want him to stay but is he really worth all the aggro that will come with that decision? 

[Window Cleaner]

3 minutes ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

I hope the FA takes the decision on whether Eckert stays out of our hands. The supporters are divided and that's understandable. We had a run of dreadful managers, thanks to SR's expertise, so when Eckert arrived and things started to improve, it was like a lifebelt to a drowning man. We started to enjoy watching our team again, we started to look to the future, we started to hope. By rights we should be celebrating a return to the Premier League with £220m in the kitty and a fitting manager. Hasn't turned out quite like that and there is only one person to blame, Eckert. By his own admission he is responsible for the whole, sad and sorry mess. Some will put winning football matches front and centre and will want him to stay but is he really worth all the aggro that will come with that decision? 

I really don't see that Eckert is the only person to blame though. Someone above him in the hierarchy must have known what we we were doing and with a bit of moral compass should have put a stop to it.

Eckert is trying to fall on his sword but the wording of the EFL enquiry says otherwise.

[Spitz]

2 minutes ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

I hope the FA takes the decision on whether Eckert stays out of our hands. The supporters are divided and that's understandable. We had a run of dreadful managers, thanks to SR's expertise, so when Eckert arrived and things started to improve, it was like a lifebelt to a drowning man. We started to enjoy watching our team again, we started to look to the future, we started to hope. By rights we should be celebrating a return to the Premier League with £220m in the kitty and a fitting manager. Hasn't turned out quite like that and there is only one person to blame, Eckert. By his own admission he is responsible for the whole, sad and sorry mess. Some will put winning football matches front and centre and will want him to stay but is he really worth all the aggro that will come with that decision? 

Great post, and imo the answer to your question is yes.
 

It was pointed out further up that from a press pov we are already yesterdays news, so while there will be renewed and unpleasant press interest in the club if Tonda does stay, then it too will likely be short lived.

Bottom line tho, is that whatever players we manage to keep for next season will have to be happy to be managed by him in the same way they clearly were in the run up to our getting to the play off final.

[CSA96]

 

[die Mannyschaft]

I cant see any Saints players wanting to continue with Tonda. He has fucked up Saints as a ckub and the chance of players gettinv promoted v Hull which we had a good chance of winning.

Why would players want Tonda to continue?