Long - Thoughts?

[bazza]

think he needs more game time actually.

 

Maybe. Long'll do alright for us he's a decent player. He's being highlighted a wee bit due to the price tag which is of course a matter for the board, not him.

[hasper57saint]

Give him time.He's a 'nuisance' player who links in well with Pelle and it shows.Also,he's as decent lad.He came over to the disabled people at the front of the Chapel after the QPR game and personally (he didn't throw it) gave his shirt to a little lad in a wheelchair.I'm impressed!

[Saint Garrett]

That back-heel assist was alright

 

Yeah - actually that is fair, that backheel was class, but I think you have to either put up with the fact he's going to offer very little all game and then he'll do something really good, i.e. pen vs arsenal, or go with long who probably isnt as good at times, but is consistently decent. probably also offers much more from a defensive point of view. Personally I would have gone with Long at Spurs, but then if Mane had scored vs Spurs you'd probably say he did pretty well - a tough one, two completely different players.

[Chez]

Long is busy and decent in the air, both facets to his game that I saw when he played for WBA against us. However, the question mark has always been his finishing ability. Yet to see anything that makes me think that he will score a lot more goals for us than previous sides, but then again we are only 8 games into the season and he's not exactly been given a run in the side. If Pelle gets injured the huge investment in him might seem a little better spent than it currently looks.

[Saint Garrett]

Long is busy and decent in the air, both facets to his game that I saw when he played for WBA against us. However, the question mark has always been his finishing ability. Yet to see anything that makes me think that he will score a lot more goals for us than previous sides, but then again we are only 8 games into the season and he's not exactly been given a run in the side. If Pelle gets injured the huge investment in him might seem a little better spent than it currently looks.

 

I think this is it really - He was never brought in to be our no1 wide player, or our no1 striker, however we did need an alternative to Pelle if he didnt hit the ground running, and also someone with some legs until JRod returns to the team. He was overpriced but so were a lot of people this summer, cant have a go at him for that. A decent player to have in the squad.

[Village Saint]

Remember some threads on Osvaldo where he got a roasting http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?48724-Osvaldo-to-Juventus-(Confirmed)&highlight=Osvaldo#.VDGKWU10yUk

 

So was wondering what those who slated him think of Shane Long so far? Think he is our second/third highest transfer in the history of our club?

 

Personally I think he has not exactly been given many opportunities to start games. Only had 4 from 8 starts. So a little unfair to judge him but can base some initial thoughts.

 

In the PL index he is currently ranked 250 of 280 players. Total of 316 minutes played. Which is on average 40 minutes a game. And of course no goals.

 

I give the lad credit for his work ethic, he does try and get involved. But I don't think so far he has shown anywhere near £12m-£13m worth of ability. With Osvaldo you could at least see he was a class player, he just rarely turned it on for us. I don't think many people will be surprised to see he has gone on to score 4 goals from 3 starts and 3 assists for Inter.

 

Long was not worth half of what we paid for him in my opinion.

 

You can't possibly say what Long is 'worth'. No footballer has an intrinsic worth. Transfer fees are what they are - what one club is prepared to pay to get a player that they want - they never have been and never will be a fair assessment of someone's worth. Some players who have gone for more than 12 million have proved to be poor and many costing less than 12 million have been excellent but it's irrelevant. We wanted Long; that was the asking price; we had the money. Job done.

 

Shane Long is an enthusiastic scrapper who is a useful option to have in a squad which has other assets. So far he has seemed to fill that role more than adequately and I am very happy with him.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

You can't possibly say what Long is 'worth'. No footballer has an intrinsic worth. Transfer fees are what they are - what one club is prepared to pay to get a player that they want - they never have been and never will be a fair assessment of someone's worth. Some players who have gone for more than 12 million have proved to be poor and many costing less than 12 million have been excellent but it's irrelevant. We wanted Long; that was the asking price; we had the money. Job done.

 

Shane Long is an enthusiastic scrapper who is a useful option to have in a squad which has other assets. So far he has seemed to fill that role more than adequately and I am very happy with him.

 

You can absolutely state what you believe a players value to the team to be though. And at £12m I do not see a player who is valuable to our team. Quite frankly we've purchased a player who runs about a lot, has poor technique and can't finish. Is that worth £12m to Southampton? I personally don't think so.

[WIGANSAINT]

He is living up to what we all thought when we bought him. Panic buy who is massively overpriced.

[SuperSAINT]

He is living up to what we all thought when we bought him. Panic buy who is massively overpriced.

 

Possibly. I think we will see what he's made of if Pelle gets injured.

[Puddings and Monkeys]

He is living up to what we all thought when we bought him. Panic buy who is massively overpriced.

 

Thank you for doing my thinking for me.

 

(BTW, I actually think he will be a good player for us.)

[sadoldgit]

He is living up to what we all thought when we bought him. Panic buy who is massively overpriced.

 

He may be overpriced but panic buy? Apparently he has been on the club's radar for some time.

[The9]

I think Long's been doing fine, he's a hard worker, good Prem experience, wouldn't expect him to score many from out wide. It's not his fault it cost us £12m to buy him because he was only 6 months into a contract, but Mane has come in and looked a lot more impactful purely because he's a more pacy dribbler who draws more fouls. If you want consistency, that's probably Long, if you want an unpredictable spark, Mane.

[SaintTex]

I don't think it's ridiculous. Mane has done pretty well, but Long has been decent enough when he has come on in recent games. Good ball in for the Pelle QPR goal for example, and he is playing out wide which isnt really a familiar position.

 

Already noted on his ability to win headers which is impressive given his height, but more important is that i think he links well with Pelle - he reads his flicks and knock-downs really well and if he starts the next couple of games i'd expect him to get in and grab a goal.

 

I also think Mane would have a good impact from the bench with his pace when games are little more stretched. Both have got a case for starting games, which is a nice position for us to be in.

 

Rather than talk about how Long will be nowhere near it when JRod is fit, i'd prefer to look at it as the depth that will give us up top. Long will probably be sat on the bench, but he'll still get plenty of game time, possibly as more direct competition for Pelle rather than the wide role he's got at the moment.

I think this on point is pretty good, however, Long's ball into Pelle was not exactly good... it went long and wide, Tadic backtracked and headed it back in to Pelle.

 

 

But I am in agreement with 99% of your points in regards to Long and I don't see the point of continuing to bash the guy. He isn't being negative or hanging his head. When he is in, you can see the effort. Not going to blame the guy for what he cost or what he gets paid. What do you expect him to do about it?

[The9]

He is living up to what we all thought when we bought him. Panic buy who is massively overpriced.

 

"Panic buy" who the club have been tracking for years?

 

Moneyball theory is "identify your target, get them if available". Cost isn't particularly important in this equation, other teams have spent loads more on their side with far less overall success. We've had a few frees with the academy and can afford to pay a bit over on some others without it being a big issue, especially if they're long-time targets who've been identified as being suited to our style.

 

And as for "we all thought", speak for yourself.

[pimpin4rizeal]

"Panic buy" who the club have been tracking for years?

 

Moneyball theory is "identify your target, get them if available". Cost isn't particularly important in this equation, other teams have spent loads more on their side with far less overall success. We've had a few frees with the academy and can afford to pay a bit over on some others without it being a big issue, especially if they're long-time targets who've been identified as being suited to our style.

 

And as for "we all thought", speak for yourself.

 

Tracking for years is not the best compliment since we were not in the premiership a few years ago :-D

[KelvinsRightGlove]

I think Long's been doing fine, he's a hard worker, good Prem experience, wouldn't expect him to score many from out wide. It's not his fault it cost us £12m to buy him because he was only 6 months into a contract, but Mane has come in and looked a lot more impactful purely because he's a more pacy dribbler who draws more fouls. If you want consistency, that's probably Long, if you want an unpredictable spark, Mane.

 

Nailed it for me.

 

The whole idea of comparing transfer fees (not saying I've never done it, mind) is just a bit silly - and next to impossible. You have to factor in so many variables that comparing two transfers renders no real value. Age, availability (or clubs willingness to sell), contract length, selling club, buying club etc.

 

Long cost more than JRod? Yes, but JRod had never played in the Premiership, and was signed from Burnley. We were also a newly promoted club, on the old TV deal.

Long cost more than Lovren, had never played PL, Lyon were happy to get rid of him after a mixed season.

Long cost more than Mane, again never played PL etc.

 

We took in a shedload of ££ on sales over the summer, everyone knew that. Prices were bound to be inflated, comparing this deal to others from previous summers or other clubs transfers on fee alone is a bit meaningless.

 

I agree it seems a bit excessive, but it's done now. I do think fans can be a bit obsessed with how much a player costs. I don't mean as to go so far as to bury your head in the sand over fees, but you only have too look around to see this is probably about in line(ish) for Long.

 

I wasn't massively pleased by Long's signing - but you know what you are going to get from the guy. I don't think it helps he's being played out of position, but fair play to him he works hard as is a nuisance. He hasn't been great yet, but I certainly wouldn't say he's been poor either. He's basically been Shane Long.

 

Football has gone mad, I can't see it getting anymore sane anytime soon and £12m fees for the Shane Long's of this world are only going to happen more. There's certainly worse people to have in the squad I'd say. Let's just judge him by his performances, it's not his fault what someone paid for him - don't use that as the stick to beat him by.

[Wade Garrett]

Good player. Thought he did well against Newcastle, really unsettled their defence. He'll do well for us.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

"Panic buy" who the club have been tracking for years?

 

Moneyball theory is "identify your target, get them if available". Cost isn't particularly important in this equation, other teams have spent loads more on their side with far less overall success. We've had a few frees with the academy and can afford to pay a bit over on some others without it being a big issue, especially if they're long-time targets who've been identified as being suited to our style.

 

And as for "we all thought", speak for yourself.

 

I am not sure about that mate. Moneyball theory is about finding value in players and acquiring them for a price that makes them a good signing. For me, lots of factors overinflated the Long fee to the point where I don't understand where he could be considered a value signing unless the powers that be decided he's wasted his entire professional career playing up front and at £12m he is a steal on the wing. But I personally don't see it.

 

The fee isn't Long's fault but you have to consider the cost to the club when evaluating a players contribution. Had Long arrived on a Free Transfer no-one would care. But we've spent £12m on him and there is a set of expectations that come with a signing like that for a club our size. For me Long hasn't disappointed because I always thought he was bang average. I wasn't expecting him to do much and he hasn't. But I guess he does run around a lot. Right now I'd rather the club have £12m in the bank but it is only October.

[Saint Charlie]

I don't think it's ridiculous. Mane has done pretty well, but Long has been decent enough when he has come on in recent games. Good ball in for the Pelle QPR goal for example, and he is playing out wide which isnt really a familiar position.

 

It was an awful cross that was sliced and nowhere near the intended target. Made good by a nice knockdown from Tadic.

 

Long tries, is quick etc, but he isnt great technically. Not that it has mattered so far.

 

The time to judge him is when Pelle is out injured or suspended, and he gets to play up front. Then he will need to show what he can really do, because we will be relying on him.

[St_Tel49]

I can be a hard working, busy, wasp-type player and I'll do it for £120 per match.

Yea - but can you take the abuse

[Jonnyboy]

Yea - but can you take the abuse

 

I wouldnt last 5 minutes

[St Marco]

You can't possibly say what Long is 'worth'. .

 

You can though. It is like any product. If you want something that is poor quality and in abundance it will cost you less. If you want something that is of mediocre quality and is not too difficult to find you pay an average price. If you want something high quality that is hard to find then you have to pay a lot of money for it.

 

To get Shane's Value you have to place him in a quality group. Work out how many people are like him and do the job he does. Someone like Welbeck went for £16m, he is obviously of a higher quality to Long. I would put him in the same bracket as players like Fraizer Campbell, Charlie Austin, Mame Diouf etc. Players who cost a lot less then Long. In fact you could have bought all three of those players combined for less then Long's £13m.

 

So of course you can say what he is worth. With big fees comes big expectations. It isn't his fault that we paid that amount for him. That is our clubs decision. Personally a decision I think that is pretty confusing. It is one thing signing one of the top strikers from Serie A for that money. It is something else to be paying that for someone who is far from being in that top level bracket.

[whelk]

Long has bags of charisma as well.

Why do so many want to criticise so early? Bloke in front of me at St Mary's already on his back.

[millbrooktonian]

Long has bags of charisma as well.

Why do so many want to criticise so early? Bloke in front of me at St Mary's already on his back.

 

We are 3 rd in the league ,we need all sorts of options in the squad .We have a neck to moan about transfer costs when you consider what we raked in this summer from Liverpol etc .

Shane Long is probably as mystified as anyone about us paying 12 m for him ,market forces at work ..but he seems an honest player and gets stuck in when given a chance .

I am in the give him a chance corner .

Support the team FFS and stop the negative Witch hunt for a scapegoat which seems to happen every year .

[Mowgli]

Long has bags of charisma as well.

Why do so many want to criticise so early? Bloke in front of me at St Mary's already on his back.

 

Let's put it this way. Who do you trust more? The bloke in front of you at SMS or the team of professionals that have identified his potential and having been targeting him for some time?

[SB]

He may be overpriced but panic buy? Apparently he has been on the club's radar for some time.

 

They're not going to come out and say anything other than he's been on our radar for sometime..

 

Good back up for when Jay is back, unless he's been brought in as Jays replacement...

[SarniaSaint]

Wasnt impressed when we bought him and he hasnt really changed my mind on that,

His best asset seems to be drawing free kicks from going down easy, his finishing has been tame so far like the one on one against qpr, so far he has been busy but not a lot else.

I do think there is more to come from him,ive seen him have much better games then this with west brom but at the same time it was a steep fee for a player we didnt need, the money would have been better spent on a back up striker in case pelle gets injured. Oh and lastly id have been much happier to see what koeman coukd of got out of gaston ramirez.

 

Careful some will think that's dissin' Les (the new God) Reed LOL

[naiser]

Thought we should give him a run:

 

-------------------------Pelle

----Mane------------Tadic---------Long

---------Schneiderlin---Wanyama

Bertrand---Toby-----Fonte-----Clyne

[Deanovski]

I really rate him, i think a midfield of jrod-tadic-long would be sick!

[The9]

Tracking for years is not the best compliment since we were not in the premiership a few years ago :-D

 

We could have been tracking him for a full 3 years without it being any kind of backhanded compliment, given that we started so well in the Championship.

 

Also, we're not in the Premiership now, either.

[SNSUN]

I really rate him, i think a midfield of jrod-tadic-long would be sick!

 

If they're sick, I guess we'd end up playing Isgrove-Davis-Mané.

 

;-)

[alpine_saint]

He needs a goal and some confidence. If he's going to improve anywhere, it's here.

 

This.

[doggface]

When we went 2 up top vs spuds he looked decent in his cameo. It was his clever movement & ability to play off the shoulder that made that great chance for Mane.

 

Pelle could not have done that.

 

I would like to see him given more game time as a striker as a pair or alone - rather than on the flank of a front 3.

 

Needs a goal.

[Under Weststand]

He is a decent player crying out for a goal to ease the weight of his transfer fee.

I do think he will turn out to be a decent purchase, but needs that goal sooner rather than later.

[SaintRobbie]

Would have been a good signing at half the price but at 12 million the pressure is on to deliver a bit.

Give him time, remember Jay Rod hardly set the place alight for the first three or four months he was here.

 

Good point.

[Beckenham Saint]

He's not worth £12m, but then Luke Shaw wasn't worth £30m, nor Lallana £25m. Hull decided what to ask from us and it was up to us to accept it, not Shane Long - so his value doesn't really come into it. We were always going to have to pay over the odds to get him as he had only just signed for them and was in their starting XI.

 

Also, doubts over his goal contribution so far also shouldn't really be a factor as he clearly isn't being played as a striker (most of the time). He is being used by Koeman as a winger when he starts, and although he has had a few shots he could have done better with (Millwall, West Ham come to mind), he has tracked back well and never given the full backs (and goalkeepers, Tim Krul springs to mind) he's up against a moments rest.

 

I like having him in the side, I think he has done a job so far and will continue to do so every time he has a Saints shirt on. His passing could be a bit better, but I'd rather he was playing for us than against us.

 

Anyway, didn't you lot say that we got our £12m worth out of him just from that pass against Millwall?

Edited 12 October, 2014 by Beckenham Saint

[doggface]

He's not worth £12m, but then Luke Shaw wasn't worth £30m, nor Lallana £25m. Hull decided what to ask from us and it was up to us to accept it, not Shane Long - so his value doesn't really come into it. We were always going to have to pay over the odds to get him as he had only just signed for them and was in their starting XI.

 

Also, doubts over his goal contribution so far also shouldn't really be a factor as he clearly isn't being played as a striker (most of the time). He is being used by Koeman as a winger when he starts, and although he has had a few shots he could have done better with (Millwall, West Ham come to mind), he has tracked back well and never given the full backs (and goalkeepers, Tim Krul springs to mind) he's up against a moments rest.

 

I like having him in the side, I think he has done a job so far and will continue to do so every time he has a Saints shirt on. His passing could be a bit better, but I'd rather he was playing for us than against us.

 

Anyway, didn't you lot say that we got our £12m worth out of him just from that pass against Millwall?

 

what at pass was that?

[Lazlo78]

what at pass was that?

 

[video=youtube_share;ojVemOvvLS4]

[naiser]

A pass worth £12m? How much was Pelle'a scissors kick worth?

[Red]

I am not sure about that mate. Moneyball theory is about finding value in players and acquiring them for a price that makes them a good signing. For me, lots of factors overinflated the Long fee to the point where I don't understand where he could be considered a value signing unless the powers that be decided he's wasted his entire professional career playing up front and at £12m he is a steal on the wing. But I personally don't see it.

 

The fee isn't Long's fault but you have to consider the cost to the club when evaluating a players contribution. Had Long arrived on a Free Transfer no-one would care. But we've spent £12m on him and there is a set of expectations that come with a signing like that for a club our size. For me Long hasn't disappointed because I always thought he was bang average. I wasn't expecting him to do much and he hasn't. But I guess he does run around a lot. Right now I'd rather the club have £12m in the bank but it is only October.

 

 

Think I kinda agree with this view. I was no fan of Long before he joined, and still not too sure, but the I believe the "black box / room" guys had identified him as a battler if / in case we were in the relegation scrape, which we might still be? The fact that we have started so well (and let's face it no one expected us to, and am sure neither did the management!) may explain why he is not a regular starter? In any case, how far have we come to have a £12m "back up" player??? Honestly, I am still pinching myself as to where we are as a club on our resources!

[david in sweden]

Remember some threads on Osvaldo where he got a roasting http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?48724-Osvaldo-to-Juventus-(Confirmed)&highlight=Osvaldo#.VDGKWU10yUk

 

So was wondering what those who slated him think of Shane Long so far? Think he is our second/third highest transfer in the history of our club?

 

Personally I think he has not exactly been given many opportunities to start games. Only had 4 from 8 starts. So a little unfair to judge him but can base some initial thoughts.

 

In the PL index he is currently ranked 250 of 280 players. Total of 316 minutes played. Which is on average 40 minutes a game. And of course no goals.

 

I give the lad credit for his work ethic, he does try and get involved. But I don't think so far he has shown anywhere near £12m-£13m worth of ability. With Osvaldo you could at least see he was a class player, he just rarely turned it on for us. I don't think many people will be surprised to see he has gone on to score 4 goals from 3 starts and 3 assists for Inter.

 

Long was not worth half of what we paid for him in my opinion.

 

 

His transfer fee.....is what it is.

A sum agreed between SFC and Hull, albeit somewhat large. He hasn't featured regularly so far, and as a striker....is judged purely on goal tally. He has a Prem. pedigree and his time will come.

 

I don't think players feel they are expected to play better than they can..... regardless of the fee.

Our history of strikers shows very little regularity of scoring, and many often scored in bursts.... and then have longer "dry spells ". I think he looks OK....and will undoubtedly "deliver the goods" when needed.

[Beckenham Saint]

His transfer fee.....is what it is.

A sum agreed between SFC and Hull, albeit somewhat large. He hasn't featured regularly so far, and as a striker....is judged purely on goal tally. He has a Prem. pedigree and his time will come.

 

This would be true, if he was being used predominantly as a striker...but he isn't!

[buctootim]

Hes great for pulling defences out of shape and so creating space for others - which is perfect when you're playing three upfront. Even with Rodriguez back we'd only have five established players for three positions, and its a long season.

Edited 14 October, 2014 by buctootim

[Tom & Gerry]

The only time you can tell if a player was worth what you paid for him is when he leaves, not after 8 games.

[Tom & Gerry]

Let me re phrase that. The only time you can tell if a player is NOT worth what you paid for him is when he leaves.

[Saint Charlie]

He hasnt featured a lot for Ireland since O'Neill came in.

[CB Fry]

His transfer fee.....is what it is.

A sum agreed between SFC and Hull, albeit somewhat large. He hasn't featured regularly so far, and as a striker....is judged purely on goal tally. He has a Prem. pedigree and his time will come.

 

If you judge him "purely on goal tally" then he hasn't really got Prem pedigree.

 

It's his all round game/contribution to the team that has got him several big money moves, and is why some managers rate him highly.

 

I agree with those that sayhe's a "moneyball" signing, and he will make a significant contribution this season.

[shurlock]

In terms of the headless chicken, run all day, nuisance stakes, seems Walters has got the nod over him for the oirish.

[david in sweden]

If you judge him "purely on goal tally" then he hasn't really got Prem pedigree.

 

It's his all round game/contribution to the team that has got him several big money moves, and is why some managers rate him highly.

 

I agree with those that say he's a "moneyball" signing, and he will make a significant contribution this season.

 

 

I got the impression that some fans see him as an extra goalscorer(?)...and his Prem. record from 160 games and 33 goals....is not a strikers % of course, but not that bad either..

 

.....though certainly a darn sight better than a midfielder like Steven Davis ...whose managed only 9 goals in over 180 Prem. starts. I think Shane looks good......when he gets on......

.....but with Tadic and Mane in the squad now, he's not likely to be getting too many " starts ", but perhaps see him coming off the bench fairly regulary late on.

Edited 14 October, 2014 by david in sweden

[Give it to Ron]

I watched Long closely today and his work rate was immense What impressed me most was how much he made himself available to colleagues under pressure. Perfect foil for Pelle.