European League

[JRM]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Yes but look how that turned out. They can still pack OT with fans, sell T-shirts around the globe and buy a team full of £80m players with only sporadic access to CL revenue. The Liverpool owners clearly knew they’d get this reaction, they can’t have been naive enough to believe otherwise, which can only lead me to the conclusion that they just don’t care. 

FCUM wasn't designed to stop Glazers, it was to give United fans an alternative away from the commercial monster their club had become. Genuine local match going fans  know they have limited power but they can say enough is enough and make a statement like start their own club and enjoy football as it was intended to be. 

[steve green]

Love Radio 4's start at 5pm on this.

"top premier clubs, plus Spurs"

😄

 

[Lighthouse]

9 minutes ago, JRM said:

FCUM wasn't designed to stop Glazers, it was to give United fans an alternative away from the commercial monster their club had become. Genuine local match going fans  know they have limited power but they can say enough is enough and make a statement like start their own club and enjoy football as it was intended to be. 

They can do this but it will be of no consequence to any of the clubs involved. There will be still be plenty of fans willing to buy tickets to Anfield and any drop off will be inconsequential compared to the figures being talked about.

[JRM]

22 minutes ago, jasonb said:

Convenient isn't it. Negative press building in recent week's regarding Cameron's involvement in Greensill and lobbying in general regarding PPE contracts and the missing billions.... then this falls on their laps.... You love to see it. 

Not sure how Greensill is relevant to the European Super league, govt will have limited power here , maybe they will try to create some to ensure the big 6 lobby influential figures on their behalf? 

[Charlie Wayman]

38 minutes ago, jasonb said:

Convenient isn't it. Negative press building in recent week's regarding Cameron's involvement in Greensill and lobbying in general regarding PPE contracts and the missing billions.... then this falls on their laps.... You love to see it. 

On the head! Classic Tory distraction technique. Bet Bojo has never been near a football ground in his life. 

Prince William is President of the FA is he not so this could be a little tricky for him 'though.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Let’s see what Sir Marcus Rashford and other player activists, Henderson, Sterling etc say about this. 

[badgerx16]

14 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

 

Prince William is President of the FA is he not so this could be a little tricky for him 'though.

Would be trickier if Villa were involved.

[aintforever]

25 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Prince William is President of the FA is he not so this could be a little tricky for him 'though.

Not sure why, The FA are against it along with pretty much everyone except the greedy cunts that own the clubs.

[badgerx16]

Why would any team want to be one of the 5 "guests" when they wouldn't be guaranteed entry in subsequent years even if they won it ?

[Chez]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Why would any team want to be one of the 5 "guests" when they wouldn't be guaranteed entry in subsequent years even if they won it ?

a shit load of money?

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Why would any team want to be one of the 5 "guests" when they wouldn't be guaranteed entry in subsequent years even if they won it ?

Apart from a truly gargantuan pile of cash?

[JustinSFC]

Fuck me.

Watching Monday Night Football Carragher ripping right into Liverpool's owners FSG saying they've used the club's history going back to Shankly to line their own pockets.

He's probably going to get banned from Anfield.

Neville piling into Woodward and Man United aswell.

[Pedantic Pete]

This has got me excited..I hope those clubs, pack up and leave and we can just have a football league less built around money.

Even if it means remaining premier league teams going bust and a new order of sustainable teams from lower in the pyramid taking over, it's got to be better from a sporting viewpoint? Perhaps I am just a dinosaur but in recent years I have found the premier league more and more boring anyway. I haven't watched MOTD for three years, I cancelled sky sports at the same time and would rather just enjoy a good day out in a well fought mid/bottom table clash than seeing one of the top sides come down with the plastic fans, big egos etc etc.

Perhaps I am alone in that but I certainly won't miss the so called top 6 one bit.

 

  

 

[Baird of the land]

Good to hear that Leeds players are wearing anti superleague t-shirts.

Hopefully Saints follow suit.

[JustinSFC]

Klopp being interviewed right now on Monday Night Football and he's fucking pissed.

He's gone.

100%. He's livid.

[Lighthouse]

Nev tearing a strip off them again on MNF. Klopp fairly non-comital and cautious with his words, which is understandable given that he’s employed by the perpetrators.

[John D]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Nev tearing a strip off them again on MNF. Klopp fairly non-comital and cautious with his words, which is understandable given that he’s employed by the perpetrators.

 

5 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

Klopp being interviewed right now on Monday Night Football and he's fucking pissed.

He's gone.

100%. He's livid.

 

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Nev tearing a strip off them again on MNF. Klopp fairly non-comital and cautious with his words, which is understandable given that he’s employed by the perpetrators.

I've not seen the interview but don't think you can both be right!!

[The Cat]

Neville is funny... 

"I'd rather watch the champions of San Marino than Arsenal and Spurs at the moment, they are a joke". 

😂😂

[JustinSFC]

2 minutes ago, John D said:

 

 

I've not seen the interview but don't think you can both be right!!

Klopp literally said Liverpool football club are bigger than the decisions FSG have made.

That's about as direct as he can be live on camera that his employers will see.

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, John D said:

I've not seen the interview but don't think you can both be right!!

You can tell he clearly isn’t happy but he stopped short of actually criticising the proposals, saying he doesn’t want to lose the fight for the CL places and he understands why the fans are upset. Basically said as much as he could without being fired for criticising the owners.

[egg]

22 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

Fuck me.

Watching Monday Night Football Carragher ripping right into Liverpool's owners FSG saying they've used the club's history going back to Shankly to line their own pockets.

He's probably going to get banned from Anfield.

Neville piling into Woodward and Man United aswell.

Nice to hear. You've gotta wander if Sky know they aren't gonna be at the party to allow their presenters to vent. Regardless, fair play to them. 

[Disco Stu]

1 hour ago, jasonb said:

Convenient isn't it. Negative press building in recent week's regarding Cameron's involvement in Greensill and lobbying in general regarding PPE contracts and the missing billions.... then this falls on their laps.... You love to see it. 

I'm glad they're (supposedly) doing something about it though.

[benjii]

Maybe the Premier League, FA and government shouldn't have allowed the clubs to be sold off to oligarchs, leveraged buy outs and absolute monarchs.

This is a case of the game reaping what it has sown. A bubble bursting. Any other such metaphor you like.

This is cultural terrorism from a footballing Taliban that cares for nothing but power and money. And they were welcomed in.

Edited 19 April, 2021 by benjii

[JustinSFC]

10 minutes ago, benjii said:

Maybe the Premier League, FA and government shouldn't have allowed the clubs to be sold off to oligarchs, leveraged buy outs and absolute monarchs.

This is a case of the game reaping what it has sown. A bubble bursting. Any other such metaphor you like.

This is cultural terrorism from a footballing Taliban that cares for nothing but power and money. And they were welcomed in.

Nail. Head. Hit.

Fucking post. 👏

[Lord Duckhunter]

35 minutes ago, benjii said:

Maybe the Premier League, FA and government shouldn't have allowed the clubs to be sold off to oligarchs, leveraged buy outs and absolute monarchs.

This is a case of the game reaping what it has sown. A bubble bursting. Any other such metaphor you like.

 

And supporters. Make no mistake if a multi billionaire American took over from Kat, our supporters would have been overjoyed. Everyone sells their soul in the end, even supporters owned clubs. 
 

It’s alright for Leeds & others to condemn this, but had they been asked to join  they’d have jumped at the chance, as would every club in every league. There’s no principled opposition to this, easy to oppose something you’re not invited to compete in. 

As you say, the genies out the bottle, this was inevitable since the FA rolled over and allowed The Premier league to fuck them in ‘92. Exactly the same thing will happen here, nobody will get chucked out of anything, a “compromise “ will be reached and a version of this will happen. The clubs will end up bigger than FIFA or UEFA, just as they became bigger than the FA. 

Edited 19 April, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter

[Lighthouse]

26 minutes ago, benjii said:

Maybe the Premier League, FA and government shouldn't have allowed the clubs to be sold off to oligarchs, leveraged buy outs and absolute monarchs.

This is a case of the game reaping what it has sown. A bubble bursting. Any other such metaphor you like.

This is cultural terrorism from a footballing Taliban that cares for nothing but power and money. And they were welcomed in.

Correct. So many fans have been delighted to see their club signing fifty.... sixty... eighty million pound superstars, building £800m stadiums and winning trophies, as if it was all some sort of charitable cause. As if some random Chinese guy actually cares about the three Cup Winners Cups you won in the seventies or a human rights abusing Arab prince is genuinely moved by people standing with their scarves aloft singing some historic club anthem.

 

All the phone ins with fans saying, "we need investment if we’re serious about winning the league," when what they really mean is they want a rich man to buy them nice things. Genuine investment means maximising your revenue stream and gaining a significant return in the long term and that’s what we’re seeing here on a truly grotesque scale

[Pedantic Pete]

33 minutes ago, benjii said:

Maybe the Premier League, FA and government shouldn't have allowed the clubs to be sold off to oligarchs, leveraged buy outs and absolute monarchs.

This is a case of the game reaping what it has sown. A bubble bursting. Any other such metaphor you like.

This is cultural terrorism from a footballing Taliban that cares for nothing but power and money. And they were welcomed in.

Its the inevitable conclusion of the pursuit of cash- since the formation of the premier league-which has eroded competitiveness to an extent that the league is won by a very few teams, often by April, obtaining nearly or over 100 points. 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

4 hours ago, Jimmy_D said:

In terms of the legal position on banning players from playing for their country, England Rugby has had restrictions in their selection policy for a long time now.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/32626996

Surely the national FA has complete authority over who they choose to represent their country? No player’s employers can insist that their player can be picked.

[Baird of the land]

8 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Correct. So many fans have been delighted to see their club signing fifty.... sixty... eighty million pound superstars, building £800m stadiums and winning trophies, as if it was all some sort of charitable cause. As if some random Chinese guy actually cares about the three Cup Winners Cups you won in the seventies or a human rights abusing Arab prince is genuinely moved by people standing with their scarves aloft singing some historic club anthem.

 

All the phone ins with fans saying, "we need investment if we’re serious about winning the league," when what they really mean is they want a rich man to buy them nice things. Genuine investment means maximising your revenue stream and gaining a significant return in the long term and that’s what we’re seeing here on a truly grotesque scale

I can't say i've ever wanted Saints to be akin to the entity that used to be Man City football club. I've longed for wage caps to come in to deal with the imbalance.

I hope they don't get bought off to come back to the fold to carry on widening the chasm and government and governing bodies use this line in the sand to cut off the snake heads.

[Jimmy_D]

5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Surely the national FA has complete authority over who they choose to represent their country? No player’s employers can insist that their player can be picked.

I'd imagine it'd be The FA that implement any restrictions. They're also against the ESL.

[Chez]

I am in no way a fan of this proposal, but just for context, out of a total of €3250million of commercial revenue, the big twelve received about €633m last year. 

UEFA pockets €295m to administer the tournament. They give the domestic leagues €227.5m and use another €560m to fund the Europa league.

In the eyes of the big clubs, there is a hell of a lot of money that their brands earn that never reaches them. They will argue that the vast majority of that £3.25b comes in because Madrid, Barcelona etc. feature, so why do they only see 20% of it?

The big 12 owners will also say, "who made UEFA god?" and "why do we let them tell us what to do and how much of our money we can have?" Administrators should work for us, not the other way round - as was the case when the Prem was formed.

The clubs will argue that UEFA gets rich on the back of the clubs. Likewise FIFA gets rich on the back of the players they pay ($4.6billion in revenue in 2018).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jimmy_D]

3 hours ago, jasonb said:

They can't do a single thing about it. 

The only thing they can do, as I noted elsewhere, is score a massive political open goal. You can trust in a populist like Johnson to be all over this like a rash. Everything will have been cancelled late last night as he was briefed on how to whip up some good old sentiment in his favour. 


 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/19/the-european-super-league-what-can-boris-johnson-do-about-it

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, Baird of the land said:

I can't say i've ever wanted Saints to be akin to the entity that used to be Man City football club. I've longed for wage caps to come in to deal with the imbalance.

I hope they don't get bought off to come back to the fold to carry on widening the chasm and government and governing bodies use this line in the sand to cut off the snake heads.

No me neither, the problem is you’ve now got to spend half a billion just to be mid-table. You’ve got the ‘big six’ chucking money at their squads, then add Leicester, West Ham and Everton and you can easily spend the national debt of a small African country finishing ninth. Villa, Wolves and Leeds have had no small amount of investment either. Even Newcastle, for all their gripes about selling up and investment, managed to find £40m for Joelinton.

[Disco Stu]

23 minutes ago, Chez said:

I am in no way a fan of this proposal, but just for context, out of a total of €3250million of commercial revenue, the big twelve received about €633m last year. 

UEFA pockets €295m to administer the tournament. They give the domestic leagues €227.5m and use another €560m to fund the Europa league.

In the eyes of the big clubs, there is a hell of a lot of money that their brands earn that never reaches them. They will argue that the vast majority of that £3.25b comes in because Madrid, Barcelona etc. feature, so why do they only see 20% of it?

The big 12 owners will also say, "who made UEFA god?" and "why do we let them tell us what to do and how much of our money we can have?" Administrators should work for us, not the other way round - as was the case when the Prem was formed.

The clubs will argue that UEFA gets rich on the back of the clubs. Likewise FIFA gets rich on the back of the players they pay ($4.6billion in revenue in 2018).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It could also be said that the competitiveness that distribution brings is the reason the Premier League as a brand is so appealing. Give them what they think they deserve and everyone else disappears into obscurity and the league is suddenly less interesting. Likewise, a closed group such as the super league will lose it's appeal because sport without competitiveness and risk is not sport.

[aintforever]

14 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

It could also be said that the competitiveness that distribution brings is the reason the Premier League as a brand is so appealing. Give them what they think they deserve and everyone else disappears into obscurity and the league is suddenly less interesting. Likewise, a closed group such as the super league will lose it's appeal because sport without competitiveness and risk is not sport.

Exactly, their brands don’t exist in isolation, they are only worth what they are because of their history and achievements in club competitions within organisations like the Football League, The FA and UEFA.

[sadoldgit]

42 minutes ago, Chez said:

I am in no way a fan of this proposal, but just for context, out of a total of €3250million of commercial revenue, the big twelve received about €633m last year. 

UEFA pockets €295m to administer the tournament. They give the domestic leagues €227.5m and use another €560m to fund the Europa league.

In the eyes of the big clubs, there is a hell of a lot of money that their brands earn that never reaches them. They will argue that the vast majority of that £3.25b comes in because Madrid, Barcelona etc. feature, so why do they only see 20% of it?

The big 12 owners will also say, "who made UEFA god?" and "why do we let them tell us what to do and how much of our money we can have?" Administrators should work for us, not the other way round - as was the case when the Prem was formed.

The clubs will argue that UEFA gets rich on the back of the clubs. Likewise FIFA gets rich on the back of the players they pay ($4.6billion in revenue in 2018).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You could also say who made the big 12 owners gods? There currently is no guarantee that any of the clubs will qualify for the European competitions every season (which is what makes it interesting) so why do they get to call the shots. The competition isn’t there for the benefit of the big 12. The money gets used right across the sport. The big clubs have been responsible for paying higher wages and transfer fees and now they want even more money so that they spend even more while the other clubs can go whistle. Why do the big 12 get to dictate to everybody else? Without everyone else they would not exist.

[Chewy]

20 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

It could also be said that the competitiveness that distribution brings is the reason the Premier League as a brand is so appealing. Give them what they think they deserve and everyone else disappears into obscurity and the league is suddenly less interesting. Likewise, a closed group such as the super league will lose it's appeal because sport without competitiveness and risk is not sport.

And it could also be said that people tune into watch football, not the 12 clubs who happen to be at the pinnacle. 20 years ago it would have been Depotivo la Coruna, not Athlletico, Newcastle and Leeds, not Man City and Spurs. The arrogance of some of those 12 suggesting they earn Uefa their money is breathtaking. They don’t, football does.

[Pedantic Pete]

4 minutes ago, Chewy said:

And it could also be said that people tune into watch football, not the 12 clubs who happen to be at the pinnacle. 20 years ago it would have been Depotivo la Coruna, not Athlletico, Newcastle and Leeds, not Man City and Spurs. The arrogance of some of those 12 suggesting they earn Uefa their money is breathtaking. They don’t, football does.

However football has become less competitive than ever.

Every league- including the premier league- has only a few clubs that realistically can win the league and that's it. Money has destroyed any pretence of competition so IMO it's time for them to move on.

 Fans have been walked over for years, it's not sport it's business, and if those clubs stay they will find ways of taking a bigger and bigger share anyway, increasing the gap further. 

 

[Chez]

2 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

You could also say who made the big 12 owners gods? There currently is no guarantee that any of the clubs will qualify for the European competitions every season (which is what makes it interesting) so why do they get to call the shots. The competition isn’t there for the benefit of the big 12. The money gets used right across the sport. The big clubs have been responsible for paying higher wages and transfer fees and now they want even more money so that they spend even more while the other clubs can go whistle. Why do the big 12 get to dictate to everybody else? Without everyone else they would not exist.

everything you say might be true, but the reality is "because they can, and they will".

Winning the European cup so many times may have made Madrid what it is, but they don't care and no longer need `everyone else', regarding themselves as bigger than UEFA and the CL. It's sad, unfair and selfish, but that is the capitalist world we live in. Dog eat dog, rich getting richer etc.

For me its been inevitable that the big clubs would form a closed European super league sooner rather than later. These owners don't want a pyramid, shared wealth and competition, they want every last dollar they can get, every year, without the fear of it not being there next season. 

[Chez]

7 minutes ago, Pedantic Pete said:

However football has become less competitive than ever.

Every league- including the premier league- has only a few clubs that realistically can win the league and that's it. Money has destroyed any pretence of competition so IMO it's time for them to move on.

 Fans have been walked over for years, it's not sport it's business, and if those clubs stay they will find ways of taking a bigger and bigger share anyway, increasing the gap further. 

 

you are right, but if they do, will we be as interested in what is left? I struggle to get my head round winning the English top flight that doesn't have the big 6 clubs in it. Will it feel like winning the Championship now, Great, but not the same as winning the Prem? Not sure. I think we will find out though, assuming Saints win at some day of course.

[Baird of the land]

Nice straight talking from Milner "I don't like it and hopefully it doesn't happen. I can imagine what has been said about it and I probably agree with a lot of it."

[Wurzel]

6 hours ago, Jimmy_D said:

Moving for more money is one thing, at their level it's almost more like just keeping score, but if it's a choice between having more money than you can spend, and playing for your country, or having even more money than you can spend, and being prevented from playing for your country?

That's probably the sanction most likely to prevent this going ahead.

Interesting theory from an agent in the latest Athletic article,  the ESL clubs likely to pay *lower* wages than they do now. With no threat of relegation and no need to win enough games to qualify there'll be no need to pay mega wages to ensure they get the top players.

That would be really funny, fans around the world wetting themselves with excitement over a *Super* league full of journeymen.

[HedgeEnder]

Carragher and Neville absolutely livid on MNF. Calling for all managers and players to publicly oppose this. Reckon this is going to get very messy!

[Pedantic Pete]

26 minutes ago, Chez said:

you are right, but if they do, will we be as interested in what is left? I struggle to get my head round winning the English top flight that doesn't have the big 6 clubs in it. Will it feel like winning the Championship now, Great, but not the same as winning the Prem? Not sure. I think we will find out though, assuming Saints win at some day of course.

TBF less people might be interested, but as a saints fan were you less interested in league 1? 

 

[aintforever]

I think the ‘big six’ may have opened a bit of a Pandora’s Box with this idea, literally everyone hates the idea, even the players seem to dislike it if Milner’s interview is anything to go by.

[Pedantic Pete]

I hope those teams can source brick proof coaches for the trip to Anfield!

 

[CB Fry]

I still think it is not much more than a kite flying exercise.

The notion that it would start this August is the giveaway. No it won't, the time to set up any of the commercial arrangements aren't enough.

The Premier League need to respond in a similar way. Go nuclear and threaten them with 25-30 point reductions (which could relegate Arsenal and Spurs) and/or expulsion if they don't repent. Go back hard.

A Premier League season without those six could be an absolute riot. (As long as Everton don't win it.)

But its not going to come to any of that, too much mutual benefit. 

The actual output will be longer and more nuanced, and will involve the dismantling of UEFA in the same way the Premier League hollowed out the FA. Its not really about Super League this August it's about big clubs taking absolute control of the levers of power for the next twenty years.

Right now they've just set a bomb off, but the long game only just starting.

[Hayling Saint]

40 minutes ago, HedgeEnder said:

Carragher and Neville absolutely livid on MNF. Calling for all managers and players to publicly oppose this. Reckon this is going to get very messy!

They were both brilliant tonight (and I am not their biggest fan) they really believe in what they are saying and really care about football.

[S-Clarke]

2 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

I still think it is not much more than a kite flying exercise.

The notion that it would start this August is the giveaway. No it won't, the time to set up any of the commercial arrangements aren't enough.

The Premier League need to respond in a similar way. Go nuclear and threaten them with 25-30 point reductions (which could relegate Arsenal and Spurs) and/or expulsion if they don't repent. Go back hard.

A Premier League season without those six could be an absolute riot. (As long as Everton don't win it.)

But its not going to come to any of that, too much mutual benefit. 

The actual output will be longer and more nuanced, and will involve the dismantling of UEFA in the same way the Premier League hollowed out the FA. Its not really about Super League this August it's about big clubs taking absolute control of the levers of power for the next twenty years.

Right now they've just set a bomb off, but the long game only just starting.

I do agree, I don't think any of their proposal has legs. It feels posturing and like you say, it's just the start of a long game. None of the 'shutting them out of the league' will happen, this is just the opposition posturing. It's like they're swinging their c**s at each other and waiting to see who blinks first. It won't end up like this, but you can guarantee there will be changes from the back of this - significant ones at that, probably over the next few years.

One thing I'm not sure about is the importance of this 'ECA' - loads of directors have stepped down from it, the clubs part of this have cancelled their memberships of it etc. I'm not sure what significance that holds other than a statement?

[Baird of the land]

12 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I do agree, I don't think any of their proposal has legs. It feels posturing and like you say, it's just the start of a long game. None of the 'shutting them out of the league' will happen, this is just the opposition posturing. It's like they're swinging their c**s at each other and waiting to see who blinks first. It won't end up like this, but you can guarantee there will be changes from the back of this - significant ones at that, probably over the next few years.

One thing I'm not sure about is the importance of this 'ECA' - loads of directors have stepped down from it, the clubs part of this have cancelled their memberships of it etc. I'm not sure what significance that holds other than a statement?

My initial thought was that it was posturing. Seems to have gone beyond that though and can the genie be put back in the bottle. I hope the authorities don’t end up groveling to these clubs and instead the clubs are heavily punished and made to either come crawling back or leave for good.