James Ward-Prowse

[Antrimsaint]

2 minutes ago, TWar said:

In what way is his interpretation correct, just out of interest? I don't think "We fall apart without JWP" necessarily means I am guaranteeing that has already happened. Either way I don't think it is a particularly interesting conversation anyway to have in depth, just curious.

And I don't think Duck argues based off what he sees on the pitch, I think he dislikes Ward-Prowse because he ducked out the way of a shot once and Duckhunter has a strange outdated sense of the "manly footballer" being the best footballer as well as a stubbornness that once he has made his mind up on someone that is that. There are a lot of people on here who don't use stats and use the eye test who I respect very much but Duck is not one of them.

I agree, Duck not a very reliable judge of character

[Lighthouse]

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; if offered a straight 50:50 choice between JWP in the squad next season and an extra £50m to spend in the transfer window, I’d choose the latter.

[egg]

Just now, TWar said:

In what way is his interpretation correct, just out of interest? I don't think "We fall apart without JWP" necessarily means I am guaranteeing that has already happened. Either way I don't think it is a particularly interesting conversation anyway to have in depth, just curious.

And I don't think Duck argues based off what he sees on the pitch, I think he dislikes Ward-Prowse because he ducked out the way of a shot once and Duckhunter has a strange outdated sense of the "manly footballer" being the best footballer as well as a stubbornness that once he has made his mind up on someone that is that. There are a lot of people on here who don't use stats and use the eye test who I respect very much but Duck is not one of them.

This is boring. You've seen my earlier posts on it, and I have said that I appreciate what you meant. 

I'm not arguing on Ducks behalf, he's a big boy and can do that himself. Imo judging a player on selective stats only tells you half the story.

If JWP was the player some on here believe him to be, he'd be playing for one of the big boys and in the Euros. There's a reason why that's not the case.

[TWar]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

It is interesting that the same person saying "we fall apart without JWP" is the same person when reaching for an analogy goes for all the screws holding a bed together. And then on further clarification goes for fall off a cliff and dying.

It all points to an almost unbelievable level of belief in JWP.

Without him we fall apart, the entire bed collapses, we fall off a cliff, we die.

I'm not sure its just semantics when what is being reached for is apocalyptic over and over again.

JWP is not that irreplaceable mate.

Just examples mate, not really that deep. Could have used "If you have an ice lolly on a hot day it will melt" (One does not have to have had an ice lolly melt to say that). Just happened to be the things that came to mind in order to argue a point about the English language.

I think you are reading a little too much into things that I ment to make simple arguments about the use of English.

[egg]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; if offered a straigh 50:50 choice between JWP in the squad next season and an extra £50m to spend in the transfer window, I’d choose the latter.

Amen to that. 

[CB Fry]

1 minute ago, TWar said:

Just examples mate, not really that deep. Could have used "If you have an ice lolly on a hot day it will melt" (One does not have to have had an ice lolly melt to say that). Just happened to be the things that came to mind in order to argue a point about the English language.

I think you are reading a little too much into things that I ment to make simple arguments about the use of English.

If JWP is injured for the first five games next season, how are we getting on?

[TWar]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

If JWP is injured for the first five games next season, how are we getting on?

I think we will struggle regardless as they are four very tough games (and newcastle). Without him though I think Diallo will have very big boots to fill and I rate our chances are pretty substantially lower. Maybe 4 pts expected with him and 1 pt without. Just my opinion though, obviously these things can't be accurately predicted.

[Antrimsaint]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; if offered a straight 50:50 choice between JWP in the squad next season and an extra £50m to spend in the transfer window, I’d choose the latter.

Disagree to an extent. We know what we get with JWP. You get a good consistent player who plays every game and chips in with goals and assists.

sell him for £50 million and spend it on Carillo, Hoedt and Lemina potentially.

sometimes its better the devil you know

[stevy777_x]

17 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; if offered a straight 50:50 choice between JWP in the squad next season and an extra £50m to spend in the transfer window, I’d choose the latter.

Me too

[MarkSFC]

What if....we sell JWP for 50m+ and sign Smith-Rowe and Wilcock for the money?  

I'd say that justifies the sale. 

I like JWP but I am thinking for 50-60m it's best for the team. 

[Lighthouse]

20 minutes ago, Antrimsaint said:

Disagree to an extent. We know what we get with JWP. You get a good consistent player who plays every game and chips in with goals and assists.

sell him for £50 million and spend it on Carillo, Hoedt and Lemina potentially.

sometimes its better the devil you know

With that logic you could argue it's best not to sell Shane Long for £70m. Those transfers were made by personnel who are no longer here, several years ago. Salisu, Diallo, Adams and KWP would be a more representative example of our recent transfers and they were less than £50m combined.

[TWar]

13 minutes ago, MarkSFC said:

What if....we sell JWP for 50m+ and sign Smith-Rowe and Wilcock for the money?  

I'd say that justifies the sale. 

I like JWP but I am thinking for 50-60m it's best for the team. 

ESR will be about £60m if he goes imo, just coming through and Arsenal absolutely love him. Villa are massively lowballing Arsenal in the same way they are us.

[Gingeletiss]

I am struggling to understand some of the forum ‘lookatmes’ shouting down anyone who disagrees with them. Simple, JWP is the best player we have, for many reasons, yet they want to sell him! To be replaced by whom I ask? I’d sell every other player first, get real some of you, we are lucky to have him.

[egg]

6 minutes ago, Gingeletiss said:

I am struggling to understand some of the forum ‘lookatmes’ shouting down anyone who disagrees with them. Simple, JWP is the best player we have, for many reasons, yet they want to sell him! To be replaced by whom I ask? I’d sell every other player first, get real some of you, we are lucky to have him.

Er, aren't you shouting down the posters who disagree with you?! There's no "lookatme" in pointing out that JWP isn't as good as some people think. 

[stevy777_x]

8 minutes ago, Gingeletiss said:

I am struggling to understand some of the forum ‘lookatmes’ shouting down anyone who disagrees with them. Simple, JWP is the best player we have, for many reasons, yet they want to sell him! To be replaced by whom I ask? I’d sell every other player first, get real some of you, we are lucky to have him.

We need funds to renew the team. 
Our recruitment is better then a few years, we can improve the overall strength of the team with that money

[WestMidSaint]

I’m not sure if this has been posted already, but last Friday JWP was at Finch Farm. 
 

I’m told by a colleague who has a family member in the first team, that he was picked up at the train station by Duncan Ferguson, and when at the training complex looked very pally pally with people. 
 

There’s no reason why I would have been lied to with the above. Would be a plausible move I think (not that I’d want it to happen)

[egg]

2 minutes ago, WestMidSaint said:

I’m not sure if this has been posted already, but last Friday JWP was at Finch Farm. 
 

I’m told by a colleague who has a family member in the first team, that he was picked up at the train station by Duncan Ferguson, and when at the training complex looked very pally pally with people. 
 

There’s no reason why I would have been lied to with the above. Would be a plausible move I think (not that I’d want it to happen)

Some 1st post. 

I vote bollox. 

[SaintBobby]

Everything has a price. Would I sell JWP for £40m? No. For £80m? Yes.

It’s not a binary “keep or sell”, it’s just about the figure.

I doubt any team will offer a fee that Saints would accept.

[MarkSFC]

31 minutes ago, TWar said:

ESR will be about £60m if he goes imo, just coming through and Arsenal absolutely love him. Villa are massively lowballing Arsenal in the same way they are us.

Ok. Was only going by rumours seen. But you get my point I suspect. We can sell JWP high because of experience, length of contract and England experience, and replace with a couple of decent prospects. 

[WestMidSaint]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Some 1st post. 

I vote bollox. 

I registered as I finally had something unique to bother registering for.  As I said, no reason why they would be lying as the player who initially relayed it doesn’t know me and would’ve had no idea it was going to get back to a Saints fan. 
 

Obviously doesn’t mean anything will come of it. Who knows whether Rafa being there makes it more or less likely???

[Antrimsaint]

39 minutes ago, WestMidSaint said:

I registered as I finally had something unique to bother registering for.  As I said, no reason why they would be lying as the player who initially relayed it doesn’t know me and would’ve had no idea it was going to get back to a Saints fan. 
 

Obviously doesn’t mean anything will come of it. Who knows whether Rafa being there makes it more or less likely???

Thanks for posting. I don’t live too far from Finch farm. I drive past from time to time. There are always fans outside. Very hard to get in without pics being taken, though not impossible. I would have heard through blues fans if they were after him . They do get excitable lol. Will keep an ear out.

[Antrimsaint]

48 minutes ago, SaintBobby said:

Everything has a price. Would I sell JWP for £40m? No. For £80m? Yes.

It’s not a binary “keep or sell”, it’s just about the figure.

I doubt any team will offer a fee that Saints would accept.

Agree. Now a lynchpin of our team. Gets more and more influential each year. Better to sell Vesty or Redmond Imo

[Antrimsaint]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

With that logic you could argue it's best not to sell Shane Long for £70m. Those transfers were made by personnel who are no longer here, several years ago. Salisu, Diallo, Adams and KWP would be a more representative example of our recent transfers and they were less than £50m combined.

Boufal, Elyanoussi etc. More misses than hits. We need rid of those players first. We need to hold onto our better players rather than sell at the first sign of interest. We are always being stripped of our best players. Its time to stick not twist. A few quality additions not wholesale change is required or else its a big gamble.

[Gingeletiss]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Er, aren't you shouting down the posters who disagree with you?! There's no "lookatme" in pointing out that JWP isn't as good as some people think. 

Coming from ‘Mr I hate Saints’ anything you have to say, I take with a pinch of salt. I can’t remember the last time I saw a positive post from you, if ever! You knock every post, and think your opinion on everything is the only opinion of note, and dare anyone disagree, you resort to insults and bully boy tactics. You are the main ‘Lookatme’ at the moment.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Gingeletiss said:

Coming from ‘Mr I hate Saints’ anything you have to say, I take with a pinch of salt. I can’t remember the last time I saw a positive post from you, if ever! You knock every post, and think your opinion on everything is the only opinion of note, and dare anyone disagree, you resort to insults and bully boy tactics. You are the main ‘Lookatme’ at the moment.

Whoa!! I challenge opinions, that's just a personal rant pal. I'm not sure how you get from me saying that JWP is replaceable, to me being "Mr I hate Saints". Bless. 

[FarehamSaintJames]

JWP won’t leave, think some people are just hugely overthinking this.

He isn’t the best CM we’ve ever had, but that doesn’t mean he’s not one of our most important now - and that adds value to the price tag for us.

He’d only go for stupid money, so with that I can’t see him leaving.

[Lord Duckhunter]

7 hours ago, TWar said:

 

And I don't think Duck argues based off what he sees on the pitch, I think he dislikes Ward-Prowse because he ducked out the way of a shot once and Duckhunter has a strange outdated sense of the "manly footballer" being the best footballer as well 

This is rubbish. I don’t dislike him, I just don’t rate him particularly highly as a footballer . Why we have to keep getting this playground “you don’t like him” pony is beyond me. 

It’s nothing to do with him ducking out of the way of a shot, I didn’t rate him before that. It was just an example of where your biblical obsession with statistics doesn’t show the true picture. Last time I looked there wasn’t a statistic of which midfielders duck. Probably because it shouldn’t happen. 

As for this manly footballer pony, I don’t expect you to trawl through my posts as that’ll bore you to death, but you’ll find fulsome praise for players like Tadic and Le Tiss, Lallana. Hardly tough tackling “manly” figures. 

[TWar]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

This is rubbish. I don’t dislike him, I just don’t rate him particularly highly as a footballer . Why we have to keep getting this playground “you don’t like him” pony is beyond me. 

It’s nothing to do with him ducking out of the way of a shot, I didn’t rate him before that. It was just an example of where your biblical obsession with statistics doesn’t show the true picture. Last time I looked there wasn’t a statistic of which midfielders duck. Probably because it shouldn’t happen. 

As for this manly footballer pony, I don’t expect you to trawl through my posts as that’ll bore you to death, but you’ll find fulsome praise for players like Tadic and Le Tiss, Lallana. Hardly tough tackling “manly” figures. 

It's because calling someone a "fairy" and saying they "mince around" is playground rubbish, and is far closer to a personal attack than a football opinion.

Also there could easily be a ducking out the way statistic, it's not that it doesn't exist because it can't it's that it doesn't exist because it doesn't matter. A player not taking a shot to the face is not a valuable way to judge a players quality, that's why no one compiles it.

[egg]

1 minute ago, TWar said:

It's because calling someone a "fairy" and saying they "mince around" is playground rubbish, and is far closer to a personal attack than a football opinion.

Also there could easily be a ducking out the way statistic, it's not that it doesn't exist because it can't it's that it doesn't exist because it doesn't matter. A player not taking a shot to the face is not a valuable way to judge a players quality, that's why no one compiles it.

But what you're not sharing is stats on the areas of the pitch where he plays the ball, where he finds space, the time it takes him to release the ball, how much he breaks between the lines, etc. They're areas for me where JWP is behind the lads in the England team, and the best in class. He's good, but not brilliant, and that's why some people are saying that we'll be OK without him and could arguably improve if we sell him high and spend well. 

[Tamesaint]

7 minutes ago, TWar said:

It's because calling someone a "fairy" and saying they "mince around" is playground rubbish, and is far closer to a personal attack than a football opinion.

Also there could easily be a ducking out the way statistic, it's not that it doesn't exist because it can't it's that it doesn't exist because it doesn't matter. A player not taking a shot to the face is not a valuable way to judge a players quality, that's why no one compiles it.

 How about Duckie's references to JWP being a "son in law" ? God knows why this is an insult but in Duckie's weird world it is definitely disparaging. 

[TWar]

1 minute ago, egg said:

But what you're not sharing is stats on the areas of the pitch where he plays the ball, where he finds space, the time it takes him to release the ball, how much he breaks between the lines, etc. They're areas for me where JWP is behind the lads in the England team, and the best in class. He's good, but not brilliant, and that's why some people are saying that we'll be OK without him and could arguably improve if we sell him high and spend well. 

I mean, I could get those stats, but that's fine. He does actually do more progressive passes than Phillips and Rice by a fair margin and all our attacking mids and I could find those stats which is akin to "breaking the lines". He receives the ball a lot too, statistically, which is akin to finding space. His high key passes indicates he plays the ball in good areas. His time to release the ball isn't measured, to my knowledge, but it doesn't seem to be hindering him too much considering how many key passes and chances he racks up.

I don't think the England thing is much of a mark against him. Grealish was left out the team for ages despite being clearly way better than some others being called up at the time, Southgate makes some very poor decisions sometimes.

Either way, your arguments are all valid ones, and I'm not arguing against you holding them. Calling him a "mincing fairy" who isn't tough enough to be our midfielder is patently ridiculous, as is pointing out he has played in games we lost therefore he must be bad. 

[austsaint]

7 hours ago, egg said:

Whoa!! I challenge opinions, that's just a personal rant pal. I'm not sure how you get from me saying that JWP is replaceable, to me being "Mr I hate Saints". Bless. 

Don't worry too much about Gingeletiss.   For years he accused me of "hating" JWP, when my consistent argument was that up to a point after Ralph arrived, JWP really had been an underwhelming player who had been lucky to be handed so many opportunities.  In the last season or two he has lifted his outfield game; sustained his work rate; got stuck in a bit more, and tackled and harassed when once he seemed to mark space.   His dead ball game is outstanding - the rest of his game still strikes me as middle-of-the road Prem level.    The stats quoted by many still really just reflect his superior dead ball skills, not progressive passing or attacking midfield qualities.   

[egg]

11 minutes ago, TWar said:

I mean, I could get those stats, but that's fine. He does actually do more progressive passes than Phillips and Rice by a fair margin and all our attacking mids and I could find those stats which is akin to "breaking the lines". He receives the ball a lot too, statistically, which is akin to finding space. His high key passes indicates he plays the ball in good areas. His time to release the ball isn't measured, to my knowledge, but it doesn't seem to be hindering him too much considering how many key passes and chances he racks up.

I don't think the England thing is much of a mark against him. Grealish was left out the team for ages despite being clearly way better than some others being called up at the time, Southgate makes some very poor decisions sometimes.

Either way, your arguments are all valid ones, and I'm not arguing against you holding them. Calling him a "mincing fairy" who isn't tough enough to be our midfielder is patently ridiculous, as is pointing out he has played in games we lost therefore he must be bad. 

I get that, and we'll still agree to differ about him. My gut feeling is that he may leave this summer just because we need the money. The highlighted part doesn't relate to my opinion. 

[TWar]

1 minute ago, egg said:

I get that, and we'll still agree to differ about him. My gut feeling is that he may leave this summer just because we need the money. The highlighted part doesn't relate to my opinion. 

Yeah it more relates to the thing you were replying to in the post. But yes, lets agree to disagree. I think we will sell Vestegaard and maybe Ings but I very much doubt he goes. His long contract means he's our only "star player" (worth over £20m) we can keep so I doubt we cash in or we might be in a right old mess if the other stars don't renew.

[VectisSaint]

3 hours ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

JWP won’t leave, think some people are just hugely overthinking this.

JWP won't leave for the likes of Villa or Everton, the Villa links are just paper talk, Noel Whelan saying its happening is not a credible link. There is no way on earth that JWP would go there, unless he is stupid (and I don't think he is). But, to say that JWP won't leave is ridiculous. He would leave if one of the top 4 came calling I would think - City, Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool. Don't think even Arsenal or Spuds would tempt him away. Thing is I don't see any of the Top 4 coming in for him, except possibly Liverpool (yes Nofuckall Whelan has been touting Liverpool as well as Villa). As far as I can see there has not been any genuine, firm interest in JWP so far this summer and here we are on page 7 of this thread. I know there is not much to discuss at the moment.

[Turkish]

35 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

JWP won't leave for the likes of Villa or Everton, the Villa links are just paper talk, Noel Whelan saying its happening is not a credible link. There is no way on earth that JWP would go there, unless he is stupid (and I don't think he is). But, to say that JWP won't leave is ridiculous. He would leave if one of the top 4 came calling I would think - City, Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool. Don't think even Arsenal or Spuds would tempt him away. Thing is I don't see any of the Top 4 coming in for him, except possibly Liverpool (yes Nofuckall Whelan has been touting Liverpool as well as Villa). As far as I can see there has not been any genuine, firm interest in JWP so far this summer and here we are on page 7 of this thread. I know there is not much to discuss at the moment.

Why would he be stupid to go there? Saints aren’t going anywhere, we’re skint and realistically the best we can hope for is to be in the battle for 13th again next season. Villa are spending, improving and much better placed for a crack at European football next season than we are, plus they’ll probably pay him more. Right now Villa are a much better option than Saints.

[East Kent Saint]

I expect Jack has had a word with him , “I’ll get the free kicks , you can bang them in , then we’ll go for a Balti”

Edited 3 July, 2021 by East Kent Saint

[kyle04]

Massive signing on fee and a hike in wages, why wouldn't he want to leave ? A sense of loyalty or professional courtesy, I seriously doubt it. Nothing personal against him but football is just a job to many players, and a  relatively short-lived one at that. Grab as money as you can while you can, and tell the world you left because you wanted to win trophies or play CL football. Whether Villa are the right vehicle for that I doubt it, but I wish him the best of luck whatever the outcome.

[SuperSAINT]

3 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

I expect Jack has had a word with him , “I’ll get the free kicks , you can bang them in , then we’ll go for a Balti”

Hopefully JWP will do the driving.

[Matthew Le God]

20 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Why would he be stupid to go there? Saints aren’t going anywhere, we’re skint and realistically the best we can hope for is to be in the battle for 13th again next season. Villa are spending, improving and much better placed for a crack at European football next season than we are, plus they’ll probably pay him more. Right now Villa are a much better option than Saints.

He has already played for Saints as a 'best of the rest' team finishing 8th, 7th, 6th and 8th in four seasons in a row with Saints. A slightly upwards move to an outside chance of that again isn't a huge leap for him that will turn his head. Plus... let's not write Saints off this season just yet... it is still only 3rd July!

Edited 3 July, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[LuckyNumber7]

5 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

He has already played for Saints as a 'best of the rest' team finishing 8th, 7th, 6th and 8th in four seasons in a row with Saints. A slightly upwards move to an outside chance of that again isn't a huge leap for him that will turn his head. Plus... let's not write Saints off this season just yet... it is still only 3rd July!

It's totally irrelevant what we did a few years ago. In the here and now Saints are going nowhere other than mid table at best. Villa are a bigger club than us, have genuine ambitions of challenging for Europe and he would get a decent pay rise too boot. It's very naive for people to think he would have no interest.

I like JWP and hope he stays, he's an important player for us. However if we received a bid north of £50M I think we would have to seriously consider it as we could potentially do some serious rebuilding with that. Problem is I have little faith in the club to spend the money wisely.

[TWar]

Not sure about this "Villa have ambitions to challenge europe" thing. Could just be they are spending the Grealish money in advance. He is rumoured to have a £100m relearse clause so maybe they know he is off and want to get some people in before people get wind they are minted. Without Grealish they are worse side than us by a fair margin so I'm not sure they are the panacea they appear to be careerwise. 

[Matthew Le God]

Just now, LuckyNumber7 said:

Villa are a bigger club than us

How does than manifest in reality?

Sure they can outspend us currently, doesn't mean they'll finish above us. We've been above them for the majority of the last decade!

[Disco Stu]

Villa won't be finishing in European places and they won't be spending what we'd want for JWP. Non-starter.

[LuckyNumber7]

7 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

How does than manifest in reality?

Sure they can outspend us currently, doesn't mean they'll finish above us. We've been above them for the majority of the last decade!

Of course it's subjective to a degree but I think most football fans would agree Villa are a bigger club than Saints. Bigger stadium, fanbase, historically more successful and as you say currently more spending power.

Regardless of that it's fair to say if you take your Saints tinted specs off that they are a more attractive proposition than us atm sadly.

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, LuckyNumber7 said:

Of course it's subjective to a degree but I think most football fans would agree Villa are a bigger club than Saints. Bigger stadium, fanbase, historically more successful and as you say currently more spending power.

Regardless of that it's fair to say if you take your Saints tinted specs off that they are a more attractive proposition than us atm sadly.

You missed my point, even if they are 'bigger'.... so what? Sure they can outspend us currently, doesn't mean they'll finish above us. We've been above them for the majority of the last decade!

[saint michael]

27 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

He has already played for Saints as a 'best of the rest' team finishing 8th, 7th, 6th and 8th in four seasons in a row with Saints. A slightly upwards move to an outside chance of that again isn't a huge leap for him that will turn his head. Plus... let's not write Saints off this season just yet... it is still only 3rd July!

What gives you the confidence that this season will be better than last? Not writing season off but I haven’t seen or heard anything that changes from last year enough yet

[MarkSFC]

12 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

How does than manifest in reality?

Sure they can outspend us currently, doesn't mean they'll finish above us. We've been above them for the majority of the last decade!

You're confusing club and team as the same thing. 

Villa are historically and in one or teo aspects currently a bigger club than us. 

The team finished higher than us last season so are currently better. Bigger is not really the correct term to refer to the team bit is for the club. 

Since they were relegated from the PL we have been the better team. 

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, MarkSFC said:

You're confusing club and team as the same thing. 

Villa are historically and in one or teo aspects currently a bigger club than us. 

The team finished higher than us last season so are currently better. Bigger is not really the correct term to refer to the team bit is for the club. 

Since they were relegated from the PL we have been the better team. 

I'm not confusing it at all. How does them winning the European cup for example 39 years ago in 1982 have any bearing on football in the 2021/22 season?

Edited 3 July, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[MarkSFC]

15 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

I'm not confusing it at all. How does them winning the European cup for example 39 years ago in 1982 have any bearing on football in the 2021/22 season?

You've answered you're own question. You need to accept that you are wrong sometimes and not go down dead ends.

Their trophies hauls make them a bigger club historically. No debate. Fact. And you apparently love fact.