Watford 1-1 Saints - Match Thread

[bpsaint]

16 minutes ago, BotleySaint said:

10 points off automatic now. It's not catastrophic. Still a lot of games to go and Ipswich will surely have a wobble at some point. But we need to stop dropping points like this. 

Everyone keeps saying Ipswich will have a wobble, despite there being zero evidence that it’s likely to happen. Even if they do the only team I expect to take advantage of it is Leeds, not us.

[Tanlee]

Thought Watford looked decent, shit timing for conceding but about a fair result I reckon. 

[Saint_clark]

35 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Ince's shot goes under our defender, but Baz is there and it's right at him.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

So is it 1-1 or not?

 

(Tongue in cheek!)

F*ck sake.

[sfc4prem]

Draw a fair result.

[Bad Wolf]

1 minute ago, bpsaint said:

Everyone keeps saying Ipswich will have a wobble, despite there being zero evidence that it’s likely to happen. Even if they do the only team I expect to take advantage of it is Leeds, not us.

I'd fancy us more against Leeds than Ipswich the playoffs. With Ipswich, they'd play with a ridiculous amount of freedom.

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Our inability to kill teams off with a second goal has come back to bite us on the arse, again. Until we start putting space between us and the opposition this will happen. 

Our inability to score goals is concerning given our attacking options. 

[East Kent Saint]

That sinking feeling from last season just came back ! Serves me right for laughing at ManU while thinking we had bagged 3 points .

[manji]

11 minutes ago, eurosaint said:

26 matches to go so it’s a setback but hardly the ‘final nail in the coffin’ 🤷‍♂️

Spot on. How the fuck can fans write the season off is beyond me. 

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

10 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

According to the beeb, we had 60% of the possession. We only managed 6 shots and 3 of those were on target.

Our usual issue of not being able to put games to bed drops us points again. We simply didn't create enough to get 2 goals ahead. The passing game, off the back of our possession, had some moemnets, but we weren't really worrying them consistently.

By contrast, they looked the most likely at half time as Baz was the keeper under most pressure.

SR and Martin's set up means that our promotion hinges on getting more out of the possession we have. Martin has said as much. Today, we tried a number of longer, riskier through balls that didn't work, giving them possession and pressure. Our shorter passing was occassionally disjointed too. We simply didn;t have too many end products from our play. Our goal was well worked, and Fraser made an impact. But we don;t drive on from a lead. We allow teams to reset for a repeat, rahter than press an advantage. Partly, because we've one way of playing really.

Should Baz have stopped it. I think so. Should Bednarek have madea  better challenge for the ball? I think so? But both had really good games up until then. At this level, with our quality, Martin has to be able to get us working as a unit at the other end of the park. The more we allow teams back into games, the more we'll end up with situations like this. And the less likely our promotion will be. Unfortunately, Mara's introduction robbed us oof Adams' more phsyical abilityies. With Aribo also off, we didn;t ahve anyone to hold things up. And that didn't help us. We also missed Downes today too. 

There were positives today. But the big let down casts a big shadow over them

Thought we were very negative today. Lost control of the game towards the end of the first half and apart from the little man coming on for Alcaraz (who didn't seem to be at the races today), most of our players were looking for a backwards pass.

In the last 15 minutes, there were plenty of opportunities to take the ball in to their half and attack their goal, but instead we held off. We tried all the time wasting tricks in the book but players don't realise this breeds negativity and a hold on mentality which often fails. They can't score if the ball is in their half - not even Hoedt.

Actually thought Bednerek, HB and Baz were superb today.

[Chewy]

24 minutes ago, Edmonton Saint said:

The Russell Martin way. Despite 12 unbeaten or whatever it is, I struggle to remember a game we’ve actually dominated and created lots of chances and clearly shown we’re the better team. 

Our last game, perhaps? 
Completely convincing last week. I know we’re all gutted at letting the victory slip so late, but let’s not start making things up

 

[CB Fry]

6 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

Everyone keeps saying Ipswich will have a wobble, despite there being zero evidence that it’s likely to happen. Even if they do the only team I expect to take advantage of it is Leeds, not us.

Exactly.

The point is they can have a wobble - lose two, draw one, three games without a win etc - but they will more than likely still be second.

As with last season, it's just people wishing other teams to lose themselves to our safety/success.

Edited 9 December, 2023 by CB Fry

[Harry_SFC]

3 minutes ago, manji said:

Spot on. How the fuck can fans write the season off is beyond me. 

Silly to write it off but there is no evidence to suggest Leicester or Ipswich are going to bottle it. Ipswich have only lost 3 games this calendar year and Leicester are clearly too good for this league.

Edited 9 December, 2023 by Harry_SFC

[The Kraken]

6 minutes ago, saintstowin said:

I feel odd. Yes gutted about a late, late goal. But we're on a good run. Maybe because of that, plus how likely it looks to be play offs at best anyway, plus we're definitely still in credit as far as late, late goals go this season. 

And then there's the fact I'm not missing the division above our one at all. 

I've felt much, much worse about conceding at the death. 

A point today. A win next time. 

Don’t think we did anywhere near enough today to think “we was robbed”. Very annoying to lose the points due to defender and goalkeeper basic cock ups, mind, but meh. We weren’t ever really all that comfortable all day and just didn’t do enough from an attacking pov to think we’d get that second goal.

A point is a point.

[Bad Wolf]

13 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

It's already been mentioned but we just don't score enough goals to be worthy of going straight back up. We had plenty of chances on the counter attack to go 2-0 up there in the last 15 minutes but we decided to stop and go backwards. 

If a team wins every game 1-0, are they not worthy of going up?

[Bad Wolf]

7 minutes ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

Our inability to kill teams off with a second goal has come back to bite us on the arse, again. Until we start putting space between us and the opposition this will happen. 

Our inability to score goals is concerning given our attacking options. 

We scored a second goal in the last game

We scored a goal in this game

[S-Clarke]

6 minutes ago, manji said:

Spot on. How the fuck can fans write the season off is beyond me. 

Not so much writing it off, just being realistic really. We're on one of our best runs in over 10 years and we're still 10 points off of 2nd. (11 if you include GD)

We're going to hit a patch where we lose a few games before long, and that 10 points off will stretch to 15 and upwards. People may be correct in that Ipswich will have a wobble, but for me Leeds are best placed to pounce on that - we'd have to overcome them as well. It's a tough ask and I think it's just realistic to assume playoffs. It's not really acceptable with our squad mind, but that's what we've got to deal with.

Edited 9 December, 2023 by S-Clarke

[The Kraken]

7 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

Everyone keeps saying Ipswich will have a wobble, despite there being zero evidence that it’s likely to happen. Even if they do the only team I expect to take advantage of it is Leeds, not us.

If Leicester and Ipswich keep up their form over a whole season they’d have 113 points and 110 points respectively. Both would smash the previous all time record of 106, which has stood for nearly 20 years. Fair play if they can keep it up but I’m expecting at least one of them to flat line a little bit and drop points. Ipswich from the outside seem the most likely, and while there’s no signs of it so far, the championship is a long tough division.

[Harry_SFC]

2 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

If a team wins every game 1-0, are they not worthy of going up?

When does that ever happen? 1-0 gives you no room for errors. As we are finding out this season. 

[EssEffCee]

1 minute ago, The Kraken said:

If Leicester and Ipswich keep up their form over a whole season they’d have 113 points and 110 points respectively. Both would smash the previous all time record of 106, which has stood for nearly 20 years. Fair play if they can keep it up but I’m expecting at least one of them to flat line a little bit and drop points. Ipswich from the outside seem the most likely, and while there’s no signs of it so far, the championship is a long tough division.

I think Leicester will beat that record personally. And probably should be with that squad 

[The Kraken]

Just now, EssEffCee said:

I think Leicester will beat that record personally. And probably should be with that squad 

Yeah I probably agree with you, strong team and decent squad depth.

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

I went today. Pretty dull stuff. Possession is everything with little threat up front. I knew we’d concede when 8 mins injury time was put up.

I couldn’t see the point of us doing all the time wasting as it all just gets added on now these days. 
 

did think the Stuart Armstrong time wasting effort was funny though

[hasper57saint]

Sometime in the very near future any one of the teams above could have a shedload of losses either through injuries or errors. There are 26 games to go. I have never been convinced of automatic promotion with our style of play. We have strikers who don’t get fed because the ‘crab’ is having a bit of a meander. We have a midfield that appears to like playing in our half and a Manager who oversees this. Two more points lost because we can’t seem to get that second and most important goal. I’m still the optimist but it’s getting a bit thin now. 

[trousers]

41 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said:

Let's just start accepting it now, we're probably going to get to the playoff final and do the same thing "try to hang on and concede late" at Wembley and then lose on penalties. 

Please tell me what the betting odds are on that eventually. If it's anything other than odds-on I'm lumping my life savings on it #inevitable

Edited 9 December, 2023 by trousers

[Jimmy_D]

Extremely annoying to lose two points so late on.

That said, most other seasons we’d have been challenging for the title with this form. Not impossible we’ll still  get back to the automatics either.

At the very least I’d be massively surprised if we dropped out of the playoff places from here.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

4 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Not so much writing it off, just being realistic really. We're on one of our best runs in over 10 years and we're still 10 points off of 2nd. (11 if you include GD)

We're going to hit a patch where we lose a few games before long, and that 10 points off will stretch to 15 and upwards. People may be correct in that Ipswich will have a wobble, but for me Leeds are best placed to pounce on that - we'd have to overcome them as well. It's a tough ask and I think it's just realistic to assume playoffs. It's not really acceptable with our squad mind, but that's what we've got to deal with.

At the end of the day we can't control what other teams do. The bare minium for us this season was play offs, I would suggest we are going to make that target comfortably. However, we have under performed as a team this season. This squad should absolutely be a lot closer to both Leicester and Ipswich. Having said that, this is a complete freak of a season as they seem to win every week. 

[stknowle]

30 minutes ago, HKsaint said:

The problem is we are not allowed to score more than one goals.

Generally agree HK my old pal, but it's more being unable to than not being allowed to.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Lee On Solent Saint said:

At the end of the day we can't control what other teams do. The bare minium for us this season was play offs, I would suggest we are going to make that target comfortably. However, we have under performed as a team this season. This squad should absolutely be a lot closer to both Leicester and Ipswich. Having said that, this is a complete freak of a season as they seem to win every week. 

It is a freak season, in a normal season the run we're on and the points haul we have would likely have us top 2 or very close to it. The top 2 this year, and Leeds chasing them, have set the bar very, very high and I don't think our style is going to allow us to jump over that bar. We're doing alright, just not the barn storming level we hoped we'd show.

[hasper57saint]

2 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

At the end of the day we can't control what other teams do. The bare minium for us this season was play offs, I would suggest we are going to make that target comfortably. However, we have under performed as a team this season. This squad should absolutely be a lot closer to both Leicester and Ipswich. Having said that, this is a complete freak of a season as they seem to win every week. 

And it won’t last LOS

[obelisk]

When I look at the Saints squad I just think we should be doing better than this. And then I remember the lack of a prolific striker, something that I should be used to by now.

Saints should make the play-offs but I wouldn't bank on them having enough to win through that sort of tension at the moment. Who knows though, by that time things might be starting to click at long last. I think we can now forget about automatic promotion.

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, obelisk said:

When I look at the Saints squad I just think we should be doing better than this. And then I remember the lack of a prolific striker, something that I should be used to by now.

Saints should make the play-offs but I wouldn't bank on them having enough to win through that sort of tension at the moment. Who knows though, by that time things might be starting to click at long last. I think we can now forget about automatic promotion.

I don't particularly think it matters who we have up front, if we spend 80% of the game passing between our CB's and our midfielders in the oppositions half then we're not going to score many goals.

[CanadaSaint]

Martin-ball is excellent for two-thirds of the pitch - probably the best in the division. But in the final third it just becomes frustrating over-passing with no early ball and often no delivery at all. Once the opposition realizes that there’s little threat at the end of it - usually after about twenty minutes - they start coming at us.

The goal came from getting it to Fraser’s feet early, in space and pointing the right way, and an instant cross.

Until we address that issue every game will look like this. When/if we do, we’ll start taking sides apart. I’ not holding my breath.

I was worried when I saw Downes was out but, on a side note, it was great to see Aribo make a strong case to start. Alcaraz made the reverse case.

[trousers]

20 minutes ago, manji said:

Spot on. How the fuck can fans write the season off is beyond me. 

Do you think it's reasonable or unreasonable to believe that we won't make the top 2 this season..? Do you think it's more likely or unlikely as things stand?

It's called realism. 

[Patches O Houlihan]

13 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

When does that ever happen? 1-0 gives you no room for errors. As we are finding out this season. 

Boring Boringtm Arsenal under George Graham

[maysie]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

Do you think it's reasonable or unreasonable to believe that we won't make the top 2 this season..? Do you think it's more likely or unlikely as things stand?

It's called realism. 

Weird how you’ve gone from overly positive (to the point of denial), to now being a realist.

Or maybe it’s a simple as you loved Ralph and don’t really like Martin.

Edited 9 December, 2023 by maysie

[woodsaint1]

Averaging two points per game in the Championship has been more than enough to go up automatically in each of the last 9 seasons (and counting). We're just shy of that mark so what Leicester and Ipswich are doing is unbelievable. If they both sustain that and hit the 100 point mark then fair play. Theres a long way to go still and while today is disappointing, a point at Watford isnt the end of the world. Plus we've had our fair share of late winners

[stknowle]

16 minutes ago, trousers said:

Please tell me what the betting odds are on that be wise if it's anything other than odds-on I'm lumping my life savings on it #inevitable

It's time to start facing facts. I see no other end to this season than us losing the play off final on penalties.

[trousers]

10 minutes ago, maysie said:

Weird how you’ve gone from overly positive (to the point of denial), to now being a realist.

Or maybe it’s a simple as you loved Ralph and don’t really like Martin.

Or I've simply become too weary of my optimism being misplaced over the last 5 years or so... Besides, it's much easier to be "proven right" on this forum by adopting a pessimistic outlook...

#reversepsychology 

Edited 9 December, 2023 by trousers

[Badger]

33 minutes ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

Our inability to score goals is concerning given our attacking options. 

Think you might have partly answered your own question. 
 

Our main attacking option that was presumably intended to spearhead our promotion push has barely played and won’t be available until we don’t know when.  

[mikeyc]

47 minutes ago, Baz Fl said:

Not fair to blame Baz, he also made some great saves. If anything the club not getting a proper striker (AGAIN) has effectively stopped us scoring enough goals to be a top side, playoffs not a disaster  but definitely a worry.

This 100% for me.

[teamsaint]

24 minutes ago, obelisk said:

When I look at the Saints squad I just think we should be doing better than this. And then I remember the lack of a prolific striker, something that I should be used to by now.

Saints should make the play-offs but I wouldn't bank on them having enough to win through that sort of tension at the moment. Who knows though, by that time things might be starting to click at long last. I think we can now forget about automatic promotion.

Compared to the last promotion team, the very obvious difference in quality is SRL. That team went up with 88 points, a total we may well beat this season.

 

Last season the current points total would have had us second , just behind the  leaders on GD.

Edited 9 December, 2023 by teamsaint

[woodsaint1]

6 minutes ago, trousers said:

Do you think it's reasonable or unreasonable to believe that we won't make the top 2 this season..? Do you think it's more likely or unlikely as things stand?

It's called realism. 

I seem to recall words like realism being banded around two months ago when people were arguing that Russell Martin wasnt good enough a manager to even get us to the playoffs. How times have changed. Theres a mountain to climb but plenty of the season to go

[Jack]

Probably a fair result. We haven’t created enough decent chances. Frustrating to get done by a long ball after defending pretty well. 
 

Thing that pisses me off is we turn down the chance to break so often in favour of going backwards and sideways. One of the few times we got forward quickly today we scored. So often pick the wrong pass 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

We had a tough fixture today but the fact is that we're matching the top teams, we just had a poor start while they hit the ground running

Edited 9 December, 2023 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Vancouver Saint]

7 minutes ago, Jack said:

Thing that pisses me off is we turn down the chance to break so often in favour of going backwards and sideways. One of the few times we got forward quickly today we scored. So often pick the wrong pass 

This. When will RM learn there is some truth in the best form of defence is attack? Instead we try to defend 1-goal leads with a defence that invites crosses in that will always create scoring chances for the opposition. We had loads of opportunity to play 'front foot' in the last 20 minutes but opted to pass back and time-waste. We know how annoying it is when teams do that to us - I don't want us to be one of those teams relying on 'gamesmanship' to squeak past opponents by the odd goal. 

Hopefully it will strengthen the case for getting a striker in in January. I'm normally a never-go-back guy, but Danny Ings would be perfect - maybe he's getting fed up warming the bench? 

[Ex Lion Tamer]

26 minutes ago, stknowle said:

It's time to start facing facts. I see no other end to this season than us losing the play off final on penalties.

I do agree with this

[Charlie Wayman]

1 hour ago, sfc4prem said:

Draw a fair result.

Don't talk rubbish we were all over them all match. They deserved nothing. Time we cleared out the old lags like AA, CA, SA and started afresh with some decent players who know how to score goals. Our front line is garbage and costing us dearly.

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Don't talk rubbish we were all over them all match. They deserved nothing. Time we cleared out the old lags like AA, CA, SA and started afresh with some decent players who know how to score goals. Our front line is garbage and costing us dearly.

More wonderful wisdom from Charlie.

[The Kraken]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

More wonderful wisdom from Charlie.

Batshit. He wants to drop AA, the league’s second top scorer who also has 5 assists (including 1 today).

I think the mad one has got hold of the Wayman account again 😬

[Patches O Houlihan]

4 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Don't talk rubbish we were all over them all match. They deserved nothing. Time we cleared out the old lags like AA, CA, SA and started afresh with some decent players who know how to score goals. Our front line is garbage and costing us dearly.

I see Troll Charlie has the log in this evening. He's my least favourite.

[Colinjb]

13 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

We had a tough fixture today but the fact is that we're matching the top teams, we just had a poor start while they hit the ground running

That cr@p September makes the difference. I firmly believe it's given us too much to do.

Fingers crossed for a trip to Wembley.