Shea Charles

[Baird of the land]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Yeah and rodri has a shit scoring record 

If he's a defensive mid then that's fine play him there instead of Downes. We don't need 2 DM in 95% of the games in the championship we need a midfielder like Charles in the second CM slot.

[UpweySaint]

I’m interested to see how Charles does in the Prem, just a shame it’s not with us.  He has lots of potential and had a great habit of being a difference maker last season. The fee sounds about right and it’s one of those deals that seems to make sense for all involved. I don’t necessarily think comparing him and Jander directly is fair as they have different attributes but of the two I would say Jander is more important to how we play so if anybody has to go for a good fee I’m comfortable with it being Charles.

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

If he's a defensive mid then that's fine play him there instead of Downes. We don't need 2 DM in 95% of the games in the championship we need a midfielder like Charles in the second CM slot.

How does that make him overhyped? 

[Baird of the land]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How does that make him overhyped? 

A) because some people make out that he's so much more than that

B) There is a forgetfulness of games like Leicester last year.

[hypochondriac]

15 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

A) because some people make out that he's so much more than that

B) There is a forgetfulness of games like Leicester last year.

Jander is a ball carrier that excels at driving forward with the ball at his feet to transition between defence and attack. This contrasts with Downes who normally sits deeper as screen in front of the back 4. He's an excellent counter presser for this league. He's similar to a player like kovacic or frenkie de Jong at Barcelona who are also not defensive midfielders but who you would criticise as overhyped because they don't have good goalscoring records.

Edited 7 hours ago by hypochondriac

[Jack]

Charles is an interesting one. You watch his highlights reel and you see a top class player way too good for the Championship, but he never made himself a guaranteed starter and was often guilty of lapses of concentration and/or looking far too casual. 
 

I’ll be sad to see him go but the club are never going to be turning down that sort of money for him. Hope he continues to improve as he seems a really decent lad. 

[Saint Garrett]

3 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

A) because some people make out that he's so much more than that

B) There is a forgetfulness of games like Leicester last year.

1 bad game all season? 

He's young, new country, and he's class. Charles is going for £30m, and Jander kept him out the team pretty much all season, and rightly so.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Saint Garrett said:

1 bad game all season? 

He's young, new country, and he's class. Charles is going for £30m, and Jander kept him out the team pretty much all season, and rightly so.

We were also one of the top scoring teams in the league last season with Jander playing loads of games. Scoring goals was not an issue last year.

[SWLondon Saint]

I think he's looked his best for NI as he's clearly got the most ability on the ball so he gets a bit of a pass on the defensive side. That doesn't work if you want to win the Championship, all midfielders have to work hard and not have those goal-conceding lapses on concentration which he's unfortunately a bit prone too.

Fee seems fair for us, and Fulham probably a good move for him with Arbeloa as manager as I imagine he'll play like Spain do where even the 'flair' midfielders like Olmo or Ruiz have to work like hell or they won't get picked, end of.

[Baird of the land]

24 minutes ago, Saint Garrett said:

1 bad game all season? 

He's young, new country, and he's class. Charles is going for £30m, and Jander kept him out the team pretty much all season, and rightly so.

I just highlighted that one game because he looked like Ali Dia in it. There were many other less than impressive performances.

Not sure what team you were following but he most certainly didn't keep him out of the team. Shea was injured for 3 months but before that he started and after they regularly rotated with one starting one game and the other the next. Their minutes played per league game when fit was level at 67.

Edited 3 hours ago by Baird of the land

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

I just highlighted that one game because he looked like Ali Dia in it. There were many other less than impressive performances.

Not sure what team you were following but he most certainly didn't keep him out of the team. Shea was injured for 3 months but before that he started and after they regularly rotated with one starting one game and the other the next. Their minutes played per league game when fit was level at 67.

Could you list them? Because since Tonda was in charge I cannot recall 'many other' less than impressive performances. I note you haven't responded to my previous post either highlighting the differences between Downes and Jander and showing other impressive midfielders who do similar jobs for the team without scoring.

[Saint Garrett]

30 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

I just highlighted that one game because he looked like Ali Dia in it. There were many other less than impressive performances.

Not sure what team you were following but he most certainly didn't keep him out of the team. Shea was injured for 3 months but before that he started and after they regularly rotated with one starting one game and the other the next. Their minutes played per league game when fit was level at 67.

Jander is class, not sure what you've got against him. Completely integral to how we play, and we were noticeably worse when he wasn't playing.  Especially the second half of the season. He was right up there for player of the season for me.

[Toussaint]

6 hours ago, saintant said:

Nah, Jander is the real prospect. Much better player.

I like Jander, I like Shea, liking them / rating them highly isn't mutually exclusive. 

[Toussaint]

1 hour ago, Jack said:

Charles is an interesting one. You watch his highlights reel and you see a top class player way too good for the Championship, but he never made himself a guaranteed starter and was often guilty of lapses of concentration and/or looking far too casual. 
 

I’ll be sad to see him go but the club are never going to be turning down that sort of money for him. Hope he continues to improve as he seems a really decent lad. 

I think it gets forgotten how much of last season he missed with quite a nasty injury, I think his game time was managed. 

[Baird of the land]

13 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Could you list them? Because since Tonda was in charge I cannot recall 'many other' less than impressive performances. I note you haven't responded to my previous post either highlighting the differences between Downes and Jander and showing other impressive midfielders who do similar jobs for the team without scoring.

The Middlesborough he started and was hardly good. There was definitely a ropey period i remember earlier in the season too, ironically before we were able to start rotating him out for Charles.

In regards your earlier comment, i'm not sure i see the comparison between those players but i fully accept he can counterpress. His best games imo have come in games where we had less of the ball (Coventry/Fulham/Arsenal) but at this level where we tend to have more of the ball, where a CM like chrles is very valuable.

[OldNick]

Shea glides around the pitch and will be a class player. Forget not he had a bad injury and the club hadto be careful how quickly they rushed him back.

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

The Middlesborough he started and was hardly good. There was definitely a ropey period i remember earlier in the season too, ironically before we were able to start rotating him out for Charles.

In regards your earlier comment, i'm not sure i see the comparison between those players but i fully accept he can counterpress. His best games imo have come in games where we had less of the ball (Coventry/Fulham/Arsenal) but at this level where we tend to have more of the ball, where a CM like chrles is very valuable.

He was superb against City in the cup including providing the assist for Azaz and as you said against Arsenal, probably his best performance against Charlton where he scored, was also decent against Swansea from memory because I went to that game and Preston at the end of the season. Scored against Wednesday too and I think he was pretty solid against Ipswich as well. I'm sorry I know football is subjective but you're just wrong. He's not overhyped at all and the players I mentioned play a simar role in their teams to him. How are the likes de Jong different players?

[Baird of the land]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

He was superb against City in the cup including providing the assist for Azaz and as you said against Arsenal, probably his best performance against Charlton where he scored, was also decent against Swansea from memory because I went to that game and Preston at the end of the season. Scored against Wednesday too and I think he was pretty solid against Ipswich as well. I'm sorry I know football is subjective but you're just wrong. He's not overhyped at all and the players I mentioned play a simar role in their teams to him. How are the likes de Jong different players?

I've seen De Jong for Holland and i can't say he ever reminded me of Jander but equally can't say i've ever watched Barcelona or Ajax.

I think he's a good player but stick to my opinion that he is being overhyped on the basis of selective amnesia of his overall season output.

[sadoldgit]

In an ideal world we would keep both Charles and Jander. It isn’t an ideal world and we may well lose both. Why bicker?

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

I've seen De Jong for Holland and i can't say he ever reminded me of Jander but equally can't say i've ever watched Barcelona or Ajax.

I think he's a good player but stick to my opinion that he is being overhyped on the basis of selective amnesia of his overall season output.

What specifically about De Jong made him a rather different player from Jander (albeit a different level clearly). The players were completely different under Tonda. If you just judged THB on his performances under Still you'd be calling him overhyped too. 

[VectisSaint]

7 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

In an ideal world we would keep both Charles and Jander. It isn’t an ideal world and we may well lose both. Why bicker?

Charles and Jander together remind me of the great days when we had Schneiderlin and Wanyama in similar roles (and no before anyone says anything, nothing to do with ethnicity). We lost both of them as well.

[Challenger]

16 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

In an ideal world we would keep both Charles and Jander. It isn’t an ideal world and we may well lose both. Why bicker?

Might have kept both, but someone had the great Idea of sending some pillock to stand in full view of a rival teams training session with a Nokia in his fist.

[Baird of the land]

15 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What specifically about De Jong made him a rather different player from Jander (albeit a different level clearly). The players were completely different under Tonda. If you just judged THB on his performances under Still you'd be calling him overhyped too. 

I don't recall watching and thinking he's pressing like jander does. Next time I see the ditch play I'll watch him closer. I've already pointed out games post tonda where he wasn't great. Maybe this season he'll play consistently at his high level every wed and sat and I'll change my tune.

[hypochondriac]

27 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

I don't recall watching and thinking he's pressing like jander does. Next time I see the ditch play I'll watch him closer. I've already pointed out games post tonda where he wasn't great. Maybe this season he'll play consistently at his high level every wed and sat and I'll change my tune.

You said Leicester and Middlesbrough. I thought he was fine against Middlesbrough but not amazing. And both games we won if you mean the home game. I mentioned six games under Tonda and you also mentioned Fulham and Coventry so that's eight.