Leeds 1-2 Southampton - Match Thread

[trousers]

36 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Quite the opposite. We must have a settled side going into the playoffs. This is no time to give the also-rans a run out. We have lost three games in a row and this is no time to deliberately make it four.

 

19 minutes ago, saintant said:

And if we play a strong side and get hammered and pick up injuries is it a risk worth taking? Don't get me wrong I get what you're saying about not wanting to lose 4 in a row. I guess you have to decide which is the more damaging scenario. For me it's another possible hammering of the first team and injuries to key players so I'd play a weakened side for this one.

Yep, I'm leaning that way too. As you allude to, there are potential pros and cons of either approach to be fair, but I agree that the risks associated with playing a full strength team outweigh the risks of playing a weaker team, in my opinion. 

I get the train of thought that says we don't want to go into the playoffs on the back of another defeat, but if that defeat is as a result of resting several key players then that shouldn't impact the team's mentality going into the playoff games as they'll know the context behind the defeat and as such it shouldn't be demoralising. 

What will be demoralising is if we play a strong side and still end up losing...

Logic says we should rule out that eventually and playing a weakened side is the only way to ensure that... 

Edited May 2 by trousers

[trousers]

12 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

If you’re too scared to play you’ve already lost

To my mind, it's not a matter of being "scared to play", it's more about being pragmatic and minimising the risks. There are risks associated with either approach to this game. I just think it's logical and sensible to rule out the biggest risk: i.e. we put our strongest team out and still lose. 

Edited May 2 by trousers

[Toussaint]

15 minutes ago, trousers said:

 

Yep, I'm leaning that way too. As you allude to, there are potential pros and cons of either approach to be fair, but I agree that the risks associated with playing a full strength team outweigh the risks of playing a weaker team, in my opinion. 

I get the train of thought that says we don't want to go into the playoffs on the back of another defeat, but if that defeat is as a result of resting several key players then that shouldn't impact the team's mentality going into the playoff games as they'll know the context behind the defeat and as such it shouldn't be demoralising. 

What will be demoralising is if we play a strong side and still end up losing...

Logic says we should rule out that eventually and playing a weakened side is the only way to ensure that... 

I'd probably go the weakened side to, but with the proviso that we give some of the younger guys a go, we having nothing to learn or gain by watching powder puff Mara &co. poncing around for an hour or more. I would probably give Rothwell a run out as well, from what I understand his favoured position is the one Stu held, and we don't have a natural replacement for Stu.

[trousers]

6 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

I'd probably go the weakened side to, but with the proviso that we give some of the younger guys a go, we having nothing to learn or gain by watching powder puff Mara &co. poncing around for an hour or more. I would probably give Rothwell a run out as well, from what I understand his favoured position is the one Stu held, and we don't have a natural replacement for Stu.

Yep, agree with that 👍

Edited May 2 by trousers

[woodsaint1]

I'd be very surprised to see the likes of KWP, THB, Downes, Aribo, AA and Adams on the pitch

[david in sweden]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Quite the opposite. We must have a settled side going into the playoffs. This is no time to give the also-rans a run out. We have lost three games in a row and this is no time to deliberately make it four.

Yes you made a good point Whitey, but I guess this is one we ....." should agree to disagree on "....we only need to wait 48 hours to get the answer. 

The result is still immaterial but I'd like the best and fittest available going into the play-offs and if we don't know the best line-up by now, there is a real problem. 

[Whitey Grandad]

15 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

Yes you made a good point Whitey, but I guess this is one we ....." should agree to disagree on "....we only need to wait 48 hours to get the answer. 

The result is still immaterial but I'd like the best and fittest available going into the play-offs and if we don't know the best line-up by now, there is a real problem. 

Agreed. But we won’t really know until after the game on Sunday 12th. I fear that we may be playing sleepwalking football.

[trousers]

18 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Agreed. But we won’t really know until after the game on Sunday 12th. I fear that we may be playing sleepwalking football.

It's a valid fear, but until we get the benefit of hindsight in due course, we can't say with any certainty right now what the best team selection approach for the game vs Leeds will be. All we can do is aim to deduce which approach presents the least risk to our chances in the playoffs, and there's inevitably a degree of subjectivity in doing so. 

Edited May 2 by trousers

[Nordic Saint]

1 hour ago, Toussaint said:

I'd probably go the weakened side to, but with the proviso that we give some of the younger guys a go, we having nothing to learn or gain by watching powder puff Mara &co. poncing around for an hour or more. I would probably give Rothwell a run out as well, from what I understand his favoured position is the one Stu held, and we don't have a natural replacement for Stu.

I remember when we fielded a weakened side in our last league game v Arsenal before we played them in the FA Cup Final. We got thrashed and the confidence was well and truly knocked out of the team so that in the final it looked like we were just trying to avoid another heavy defeat. The danger is that if we get thrashed by Leeds, our chances of beating them in the play-off final, if we reach it, will be reduced.

[trousers]

48 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

I remember when we fielded a weakened side in our last league game v Arsenal before we played them in the FA Cup Final. We got thrashed and the confidence was well and truly knocked out of the team so that in the final it looked like we were just trying to avoid another heavy defeat. The danger is that if we get thrashed by Leeds, our chances of beating them in the play-off final, if we reach it, will be reduced.

That's more of a sign of inadequate man management and/or lack of player mental strength, rather than it being the wrong approach per se, IMO.... Logically, if it's largely a different team that plays in the 'dead rubber' match compared to the team that then plays in the ensuing important game(s), then the players that play in the latter game(s) have no reason to feel demoralised (if the former game is lost) because they should understand the context behind the decision to play a weakened side in the first place. If the confidence of our better players drops because our 'B team' loses then you've got to question their underlying mental strength + intelligence, and the ability of the management to convey the context and logic to them...

Edited May 2 by trousers

[Toussaint]

40 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

I remember when we fielded a weakened side in our last league game v Arsenal before we played them in the FA Cup Final. We got thrashed and the confidence was well and truly knocked out of the team so that in the final it looked like we were just trying to avoid another heavy defeat. The danger is that if we get thrashed by Leeds, our chances of beating them in the play-off final, if we reach it, will be reduced.

I think stage fright also came into play in a big way that day, the Millennium Stadium is an intimidating place, first game ever under a closed roof,  Arsenal's familiarity with big occasions, Fabrice Fernandes's refusing to take the field when called upon and so on.  My main point is I don't want to see a team like last Saturday's fielded, that is to say no attacking threat and no midfield strength. Use some of the fringe / up and coming players if we need to who maybe some value in the playoffs.

[Osvaldorama]

3 hours ago, trousers said:

 

Yep, I'm leaning that way too. As you allude to, there are potential pros and cons of either approach to be fair, but I agree that the risks associated with playing a full strength team outweigh the risks of playing a weaker team, in my opinion. 

I get the train of thought that says we don't want to go into the playoffs on the back of another defeat, but if that defeat is as a result of resting several key players then that shouldn't impact the team's mentality going into the playoff games as they'll know the context behind the defeat and as such it shouldn't be demoralising. 

What will be demoralising is if we play a strong side and still end up losing...

Logic says we should rule out that eventually and playing a weakened side is the only way to ensure that... 

 

I agree 

Our form can’t get any worse. May as well save people’s legs and get the team as fresh as possible. 
 

FWIW the playoffs team should be:

macca

kwp THB Bednarek Stephens (LB)

smallbone Downes Aribo 

AA Adams Edozie (Fraser off the bench). 
 

This is the team that seemed to work well this season. Possibly swap manning in for Stephens. But he’s a defensive liability tbh. 

[Midfield_General]

3 hours ago, Toussaint said:

I'd probably go the weakened side to, but with the proviso that we give some of the younger guys a go, we having nothing to learn or gain by watching powder puff Mara &co. poncing around for an hour or more. 

Yeah I'm the same. 

The 'first team' (if such a thing exists anymore) haven't exactly covered themselves in glory losing the last three on the bounce, so that alone makes it perfectly natural for that to open the door for some of them to be dropped, and for other players to be given the chance to step in and impress. 

Turn it into a positive - give some of the youngsters a start, and tell them that it's not because the others are being rested, but because this is their chance to work their socks off and play their way into the team for the play-offs, some of the highest-profile games you can get. Give them the chance to give the manager a selection headache for the semis. 

Edited May 2 by Midfield_General

[revolution saint]

Doubt it really matters but I'd play the strongest side possible.  It's not like we're still in a fixture list backlog and think it would do the players some good to have a game.  Obviously not worth risking anyone who has any fitness doubts but the rest of them can play.  I can see the idea behind trying to avoid injuries but they can happen at any time, we going to stop them training too?  Nah, get 'em on the pitch doing their job.

[disconnect]

Amo-Ameyaw, Dibling and maybe Meghoma surely deserves to at least feature in the squad. If we're still in the Championship next season, they'll have big parts to play (if we havent pissed them off too)!

[Dark Munster]

4 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

If you’re too scared to play you’ve already lost. We would be off the pace in the next game against a team which has been going flat out. Losing is a habit that’s hard to break.

That’s true. But we’ve had an insane number of games last month. Aribo for one looks knackered. I’d rest key players (Downes especially) and play a mixture of first teamers and reserves. Once Ipswich go a couple of goals up Leeds will also have eyes on the playoffs. 

[trousers]

1 hour ago, revolution saint said:

Doubt it really matters but I'd play the strongest side possible.  It's not like we're still in a fixture list backlog and think it would do the players some good to have a game.  Obviously not worth risking anyone who has any fitness doubts but the rest of them can play.  I can see the idea behind trying to avoid injuries but they can happen at any time, we going to stop them training too?  Nah, get 'em on the pitch doing their job.

It's not just about "avoiding injuries", however.... 

https://wimbledonclinics.co.uk/blog/professional-footballers-face-much-higher-risk-of-injury-in-matches-than-training/

"Professional football players are far more likely to get injured in competition than during training sessions, according to a new study. Researchers in Spain and the UK found that the risk of injury during competition matches is 12 times higher than during training sessions."

[revolution saint]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

It's not just about "avoiding injuries", however.... 

https://wimbledonclinics.co.uk/blog/professional-footballers-face-much-higher-risk-of-injury-in-matches-than-training/

"Professional football players are far more likely to get injured in competition than during training sessions, according to a new study. Researchers in Spain and the UK found that the risk of injury during competition matches is 12 times higher than during training sessions."

Probably best not to play them at all then, you know, just to be on the safe side 

[trousers]

24 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

Probably best not to play them at all then, you know, just to be on the safe side 

And there was silly old me thinking we were talking about a specific upcoming scenario rather than in general... 🤦‍♂️

[WALK DMC]

2 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

 

I agree 

Our form can’t get any worse. May as well save people’s legs and get the team as fresh as possible. 
 

FWIW the playoffs team should be:

macca

kwp THB Bednarek Stephens (LB)

smallbone Downes Aribo 

AA Adams Edozie (Fraser off the bench). 
 

This is the team that seemed to work well this season. Possibly swap manning in for Stephens. But he’s a defensive liability tbh. 

I thought that Edozie played OK against Stoke, but when it comes down to the crunch games I'd always prefer Frazer who has the experience and pedigree that Edozie doesn't possess. 

I often think Edozie flatters to deceive. The first league game that he started when he returned after his 6 week layoff was our 3-1 loss to Bristol C. Frazer started the next game v WBA which we won. Edozie started the next v Hull and we lost again. In fairness he didn't start next against Millwall which we lost.

He is a player who likes ball to feet while Frazer makes runs for others to use. I also really like Frazer away from home where he gets a little more space.

Maybe Edozie will come good, but I don't think Saints play as well as a TEAM when he starts, and so would avoid in the playoffs.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

If there's any doubt over the full fitness of Downes, KWP, Che or AA it would be well worth limiting their time. No point in risking them, for a much more important game.

If Downes is missing, it seems to not go our way. I'd consider a Charles, Stephens, Aribo combo in there. It would end up being a bit more direct. But a step up from Brooks somewhere in it. Smallbone available to come in as required. His passing game gets a bit post as Stephens and Aribo aren't really able to make the most of it.

[saintstowin]

It's a tough call and I can't predict RM's approach. He saw what didn't work changes-wise v Stoke. It's the intensity and our general lack of it lately that I worry about. 

[revolution saint]

11 minutes ago, trousers said:

And there was silly old me thinking we were talking about a specific upcoming scenario rather than in general... 🤦‍♂️

Yeah was being flippant because at no point did I say that the risk of injury was the same in training as competitive matches so your reply seemed a bit redundant.

[pingpong]

Might be misremembering, but didn't we play a weakened side against arsenal in a May game just before the fa cup final against them? 

And got hammered 6-1?

I remember thinking back then was it was a bad decision and gave arsenal the mental edge when it came to the final.

 

 

[saintstowin]

2 minutes ago, pingpong said:

Might be misremembering, but didn't we play a weakened side against arsenal in a May game just before the fa cup final against them? 

And got hammered 6-1?

I remember thinking back then was it was a bad decision and gave arsenal the mental edge when it came to the final.

 

 

That was my one and only Highbury trip. Henry and Co had a field day. I can't recall how weak we were, on paper. I do remember us having loads of chances. Defo affected Strachan for the final. 

[saint lard]

Like Leicester,Leeds will be under investigation also. For monetary impropriety. 
bit late for us however. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Whitey Grandad]

31 minutes ago, pingpong said:

Might be misremembering, but didn't we play a weakened side against arsenal in a May game just before the fa cup final against them? 

And got hammered 6-1?

I remember thinking back then was it was a bad decision and gave arsenal the mental edge when it came to the final.

 

 

Dennis Rose came to talk to us at a referees meeting soon after. I asked him whether that thrashing had affected their preparation for the final. He said not really but they would have liked to have scored a goal.

[david in sweden]

re Saint lards comment above ...

Looks like the governing bodies may still have a say. If Everton get further punishment now or later , and Leeds and /or Leicester get the same 

then  a lot of clubs may end up in another league with points deduction to boot then a lot of celebrations may be short-lived. 

[The Cat]

Play reserves and kick the crap out of them.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, revolution saint said:

Yeah was being flippant because at no point did I say that the risk of injury was the same in training as competitive matches so your reply seemed a bit redundant.

You appeared to imply that there wasn't any difference but offer my apologies if I misinterpreted

[Mr X]

Shitting hell all this talk of let's play a weakened side.... Leicester put 5 past a so called half decent lineup... I dread to think how many Leeds will put past an even weaker side! Yes it might save a few injuries but our moral would be injured more! 

[Midfield_General]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Dennis Rose came to talk to us at a referees meeting soon after. I asked him whether that thrashing had affected their preparation for the final. He said not really but they would have liked to have scored a goal.

He can’t have been watching very closely then because we did! It was 6-1. Tessem scored for us. 

Both sides rested players but their reserves were unsurprisingly a bit stronger than ours and we were 5 down after 26 minutes. Strachan took Fabrice Fernandes off in disgust after 27 minutes and subsequently dropped him for the Cup Final. Jermaine Pennant scored a first half hat-trick. 

I was behind Jones’s goal at Highbury for that one. As the goals flew in he was getting some stick from Saints fans behind him, and he turned round, looked them dead in the eye and said straight to them ‘They are quite good actually’, which made me smile at the time. 

Edited May 2 by Midfield_General

[trousers]

32 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Shitting hell all this talk of let's play a weakened side.... Leicester put 5 past a so called half decent lineup... I dread to think how many Leeds will put past an even weaker side! Yes it might save a few injuries but our moral would be injured more! 

Why would a 'B team' getting thrashed affect the moral of the 'A team'...? 

[Chewy]

6 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

 

I agree 

Our form can’t get any worse. May as well save people’s legs and get the team as fresh as possible. 
 

FWIW the playoffs team should be:

macca

kwp THB Bednarek Stephens (LB)

smallbone Downes Aribo 

AA Adams Edozie (Fraser off the bench). 
 

This is the team that seemed to work well this season. Possibly swap manning in for Stephens. But he’s a defensive liability tbh. 

That’s how I see it. And based on that I’d like something along the lines of:

Lumley

Bree Stephens THB/Jan Manning/Meghoma

Smallbone/Aribo Charles Rothwell/Brooks

SAA Mara Kamaldeen

Would love to drop Mara but there’s literally no one else. I’d like Dibling and maybe Bragg to get minutes, and maybe 45 each for Aribo and Smallbone. 

That said, the only player in the entire squad I think is totally irreplaceable and needs wrapping in cotton wool is Downes. We have cover of sorts for everyone else so I don’t mind if anyone is picked except him. Don’t get me wrong, I’d rather have a fit ArmA, Adams and especially KWP and THB but we could function just about without one of them.

I get Whiteys point about playing a strong team and gaining confidence, I’d just personally play it ultra safe. Leeds is a game that doesn’t matter, basically a friendly. And we have 2 or hopefully 3 vitally important games in the next two weeks - there’s no scenario quite like this.

[Chez]

Did Downes look rusty on Saturday? Getting and keeping him right is extremely important. not sure if that means he gets some time on the pitch or not.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Midfield_General said:

He can’t have been watching very closely then because we did! It was 6-1. Tessem scored for us. 

Both sides rested players but their reserves were unsurprisingly a bit stronger than ours and we were 5 down after 26 minutes. Strachan took Fabrice Fernandes off in disgust after 27 minutes and subsequently dropped him for the Cup Final. Jermaine Pennant scored a first half hat-trick. 

I was behind Jones’s goal at Highbury for that one. As the goals flew in he was getting some stick from Saints fans behind him, and he turned round, looked them dead in the eye and said straight to them ‘They are quite good actually’, which made me smile at the time. 

Rofe was talking about the final.

[aintforever]

Might as well play the reserves and make it as physical as possible. I definitely wouldn’t risk any key players.

[Turkish]

Imagine the uproar there would be if we played a B team and get smashed by Leeds and Ipswich lose to Huddersfield sending Leeds up on goal difference 🤭🤭🤭

[Midfield_General]

13 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Rofe was talking about the final.

Aaaah I see

[SaintTex]

the line up talk is a hilarious and a bit sad..

how can you play a weekend side if you don't even know what your strongest side is?

 

Martin certainly doesn't know.

[Weston Super Saint]

All these fantasy team selections and not one person has remembered that the Loch Ness Drogba will be coming on for his second cameo of the season.  Talk of being destroyed by Leeds is nonsense when you remember the certainty of his hat trick in the last 15 minutes.

3-2 Saints.

[Chez]

10 hours ago, Turkish said:

Imagine the uproar there would be if we played a B team and get smashed by Leeds and Ipswich lose to Huddersfield sending Leeds up on goal difference 🤭🤭🤭

Leeds goal difference is 6 more than Ipswich at the moment.

[eurosaint]

2 hours ago, SaintTex said:

the line up talk is a hilarious and a bit sad..

how can you play a weekend side if you don't even know what your strongest side is?

Well it is on a Saturday 🤪

 

 

Edited May 3 by eurosaint

[gio1saints]

19 hours ago, Nordic Saint said:

I remember when we fielded a weakened side in our last league game v Arsenal before we played them in the FA Cup Final. We got thrashed and the confidence was well and truly knocked out of the team so that in the final it looked like we were just trying to avoid another heavy defeat. The danger is that if we get thrashed by Leeds, our chances of beating them in the play-off final, if we reach it, will be reduced.

Excellent point. I remember that game as I was there ( for both) and felt we lost the Final before we even arrived - by that league game line up and performance. 

The final itself seemed a strangely subdued ( by wgs standards) exercise in not getting humiliated again rather than us laying any serious blows on Arsenal. It felt like the manager primarily and thus the players had no real deep belief they could actually win - but rather wanted it to be a respectable score line and competitive. Still love WGS but that match was not his high point! 

My view for Saturday is : Fuck cotton wool our best players , reasonable score line and “ being competitive”. 

My view is to play our best team of fighters - the team most likely to tear a Leeds players leg off to get the ball*.  Not to play safe. Playing safe invariably gets you injured anyway and you win nothing.
Play hard play strong play properly not at 90% and give everything you have - and may the best team win. 

Same for play off matches. Same if we get to a Final. With whatever players we got left still able to stand. We got a squad. At this stage it’s not so much about skill it’s more about bottle and a winning attitude. 
 

* and yes that does mean I start with Jack Stephens 100% of the last three matches. My starting eleven is the eleven most willing to sacrifice everything for the team. 

Edited May 3 by gio1saints

[Fabrice29]

Hope all the people advocating a rotated/weakened side aren’t the first ones to bemoan the result if we lose. 

[Gingeletiss]

And I hope those wishing a full strength side, don’t bemoan the fact that key players got injured and we should of played a weakened side.

[Badger]

11 hours ago, Chez said:

Did Downes look rusty on Saturday? Getting and keeping him right is extremely important. not sure if that means he gets some time on the pitch or not.

By his own standards perhaps, but still improved us. More damning of the rest perhaps 

[trousers]

Russ intimating at the pre match press conference this morning that certain key players won't be in the squad and some will be but won't play 90 minutes. Good to see logic and common sense prevailing. Mara out injured so I reckon Dibling should see some action at long last (?)

P.s. he confirmed Ross Stewart will  definitely be on the bench with the hope that he can play a key role in the playoffs....

Edited May 3 by trousers

[trousers]

33 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Hope all the people advocating a rotated/weakened side aren’t the first ones to bemoan the result if we lose. 

Why would they do that given the result of this game doesn't matter?

Edited May 3 by trousers

[saintant]

37 minutes ago, gio1saints said:

Excellent point. I remember that game as I was there ( for both) and felt we lost the Final before we even arrived - by that league game line up and performance. 

The final itself seemed a strangely subdued ( by wgs standards) exercise in not getting humiliated again rather than us laying any serious blows on Arsenal. It felt like the manager primarily and thus the players had no real deep belief they could actually win - but rather wanted it to be a respectable score line and competitive. Still love WGS but that match was not his high point! 

My view for Saturday is : Fuck cotton wool our best players , reasonable score line and “ being competitive”. 

My view is to play our best team of fighters - the team most likely to tear a Leeds players leg off to get the ball*.  Not to play safe. Playing safe invariably gets you injured anyway and you win nothing.
Play hard play strong play properly not at 90% and give everything you have - and may the best team win. 

Same for play off matches. Same if we get to a Final. With whatever players we got left still able to stand. We got a squad. At this stage it’s not so much about skill it’s more about bottle and a winning attitude. 
 

* and yes that does mean I start with Jack Stephens 100% of the last three matches. My starting eleven is the eleven most willing to sacrifice everything for the team. 

Well at a guess I would imagine WGS was slightly concerned about the firepower of Arsenal's team which included Bergkamp, Henry, Pires and Ljundberg. They would have torn us to shreds in an open game.