Saints Expelled from Playoffs

[egg]

26 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Boro can say they think they were cheated out of the same £200m and that's the end of that.

Yep, they can, have, and the panel will have taken the view that they've lost that opportunity, and that we were seeking to gain it unfairly.

A press release whining about our lost opportunity, pre appeal, wasn't wise imo. 

[Mattio]

Out of interest how do the appeals work? Do we plead a case like a court case, or is it more of a discussion round a table?

[bpsaint]

43 minutes ago, mss636 said:

It's already been reported on sky Sports today that this appeal is final and there is no basis for any legal follow up after today from either party

https://www.facebook.com/reel/869204128783546

I get it's all emotional ATM, but it's better to wait to speak than say something that may make this worse.  What's important is getting the appeal done.  We can call the EFL a bunch of Cu*ts after that!

What Sky have referenced is that there can be no further appeal via the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

What Parsons has done is to publicly mention worse crimes that have resulted in a lighter punishment, and then to put a figure on our potential losses and as such attempt to swing the court of public opinion back into our favour the way Boro have. He didn’t need to mention other clubs and punishments, we’ve already speculated on those privately on here for example.

If the appeal doesn’t go our way it won’t be a legal attempt via the C.A.S., it’ll be direct legal action between the EFL and SFC, and that £200 million figure will be the crux of it all.

[sfc4prem]

I like that statement. What else could they say, apart from sacking those involved.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, SNSUN said:

I'm not au fait with the procedures but it sounds like we won't lie down from this without a fight. 

But if we accept that the panel and the appeal is independent and they have recommended expulsion then who is would be the target of litigation?

[egg]

48 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

By that logic you’d be arguing that yellow cards should be red in the playoffs because it’s a more valuable game.

That's just silly. 

[edprice1984]

The statement is basically all the club could say at this point. 

 

I find it incredibly unlikely that they will overturn any part of the decision - particularly expulsion. I don't think we deserve to be reinstated nor should be. 

However, the little devil on my shoulder also thinks for those moaning about not acknowledging Hull City, personally I couldn't give a f*ck. We are bang to rights, deserve to be chucked out, but if there is any sort of possibility that we can salvage this and then somehow win, I will be an angry supporter watching a Premier League team next season. 

What the club have done is morally repugnant and it is incredibly embarrassing for supporters, but as others have said, plenty of other sides have committed sustained cheating on a much larger scale.

Man City, Everton, Leicester, Forest, Chelsea, Pompey, Leeds, Derby etc etc etc. 

I am angry, disappointed, and frankly fed up with the whole situation. We will have to get used to years and years of abuse for this from rival supporters, it's going to be a stick that we will be beaten with for a long time. 

Rambling thoughts from someone who hates that there is even 1% hope that we get reinstated. Bastards.

 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, bpsaint said:

What Sky have referenced is that there can be no further appeal via the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

What Parsons has done is to publicly mention worse crimes that have resulted in a lighter punishment, and then to put a figure on our potential losses and as such attempt to swing the court of public opinion back into our favour the way Boro have. He didn’t need to mention other clubs and punishments, we’ve already speculated on those privately on here for example.

If the appeal doesn’t go our way it won’t be a legal attempt via the C.A.S., it’ll be direct legal action between the EFL and SFC, and that £200 million figure will be the crux of it all.

But the efl didn't decide on the punishment.

[Galway saint]

1 minute ago, Mattio said:

Out of interest how do the appeals work? Do we plead a case like a court case, or is it more of a discussion round a table?

Parties exchange skeleton arguments and then make submissions to the panel 

[DrSuess1979]

They are stating Leicester breaking the FFP rules which enabled them to get promoted.

Only for them to get a disproportionate points deduction.

 

[benjii]

"we will also be writing to the EFL to volunteer our participation in a working group on the practical application and enforcement of Regulation 127 across the Championship"

 

A.k.a. this is rife, so watch it.

[egg]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

What else was he supposed to say at this point? We've admitted the offence, the only card we have is a plea for mitigation based on proportionality.

Not whining about the our lost opportunity when the whole thrust of the penalty is that we sought to gain that unfairly. It was naive at best. 

The apology, yep, the willingness to change, yep, the whining, no. 

What was also conspicuous by it's absence was saying that we've been let down by individuals, and have dealt with them. 

For me, it was misguided and unhelpful. 

[Wade Garrett]

Don't get the vitriol being thrown at Parsons.

The club are just trying their best to deal with the shitty hand that cheating Tonda has given them.

[sfc4prem]

3 minutes ago, edprice1984 said:

The statement is basically all the club could say at this point. 

 

I find it incredibly unlikely that they will overturn any part of the decision - particularly expulsion. I don't think we deserve to be reinstated nor should be. 

However, the little devil on my shoulder also thinks for those moaning about not acknowledging Hull City, personally I couldn't give a f*ck. We are bang to rights, deserve to be chucked out, but if there is any sort of possibility that we can salvage this and then somehow win, I will be an angry supporter watching a Premier League team next season. 

What the club have done is morally repugnant and it is incredibly embarrassing for supporters, but as others have said, plenty of other sides have committed sustained cheating on a much larger scale.

Man City, Everton, Leicester, Forest, Chelsea, Pompey, Leeds, Derby etc etc etc. 

I am angry, disappointed, and frankly fed up with the whole situation. We will have to get used to years and years of abuse for this from rival supporters, it's going to be a stick that we will be beaten with for a long time. 

Rambling thoughts from someone who hates that there is even 1% hope that we get reinstated. Bastards.

 

You've neatly summarised my thoughts on the matter 

[Farmer Saint]

8 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Well I wouldn’t have spied on other teams in such an obvious way. 
Nor would I have admitted to the charges to the opposition’s CEO. 

Then I would have delayed all the hearings for as long as possible.

 

But failing all that, and with everything that’s gone on, I don’t have a fucking clue because I’m not a dinlo like parsons. 

But you said the following -

That statement… Jesus.
 

We are absolutely cooked

 

 

What's the above got to do with the statement?

[bpsaint]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

But the efl didn't decide on the punishment.

But conversely they never had a set punishment in place for the offence. Saints will likely argue that the punishment is too dynamic depending on the circumstances.

[SNSUN]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

But if we accept that the panel and the appeal is independent and they have recommended expulsion then who is would be the target of litigation?

Ah i see what you mean now. Then I'm not sure.

When I want to blame someone I usually just pick the wife.

[sfc4prem]

Just now, egg said:

Not whining about the our lost opportunity when the whole thrust of the penalty is that we sought to gain that unfairly. It was naive at best. 

The apology, yep, the willingness to change, yep, the whining, no. 

What was also conspicuous by it's absence was saying that we've been let down by individuals, and have dealt with them. 

For me, it was misguided and unhelpful. 

I can see that.

I don't think it will affect our appeal either way, but at last we've heard something from the club.

Im not sure they can say 'we've dealt with them' when they likely haven't, pending the appeal and pending an unlikely return to Wembley.

[Zorba]

2 minutes ago, benjii said:

"we will also be writing to the EFL to volunteer our participation in a working group on the practical application and enforcement of Regulation 127 across the Championship"

 

A.k.a. this is rife, so watch it.

..And we're going after Boro!

[Saint86]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

But the efl didn't decide on the punishment.

I don't accept that its just complete a fluke that Boro's CEO is the championship rep on the efl board, that the punishment we've been given is exactly the punishment Boro called for, that that punishment has been met with almost universal stunned amazement, and that boro have been given the nonsensical and grossly unfair reward of being reinstated and given a final date vs an unprepared hull on Saturday. Its all come from Boro via the EFL.

[Sheaf Saint]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

A press release whining about our lost opportunity, pre appeal, wasn't wise imo. 

It worked for Boro.

[Sunglasses Ron]

1 minute ago, edprice1984 said:

The statement is basically all the club could say at this point. 

 

I find it incredibly unlikely that they will overturn any part of the decision - particularly expulsion. I don't think we deserve to be reinstated nor should be. 

However, the little devil on my shoulder also thinks for those moaning about not acknowledging Hull City, personally I couldn't give a f*ck. We are bang to rights, deserve to be chucked out, but if there is any sort of possibility that we can salvage this and then somehow win, I will be an angry supporter watching a Premier League team next season. 

What the club have done is morally repugnant and it is incredibly embarrassing for supporters, but as others have said, plenty of other sides have committed sustained cheating on a much larger scale.

Man City, Everton, Leicester, Forest, Chelsea, Pompey, Leeds, Derby etc etc etc. 

I am angry, disappointed, and frankly fed up with the whole situation. We will have to get used to years and years of abuse for this from rival supporters, it's going to be a stick that we will be beaten with for a long time. 

Rambling thoughts from someone who hates that there is even 1% hope that we get reinstated. Bastards.

 

Good points.

The thing we are battling here (with no chance of winning) is that the act of 'spying' seems to be viewed by the masses as far worse than the act of cheating financially.  James Bond aside, the former seems incredibly un-British even if it probably doesn't come close to someone gaining an advantage through financial foul-play.  It's why we absolutely hate to see diving etc., whereas it's almost celebrated overseas.

 

[LGTL]

Why on earth is Tonda still here? He should have been sacked first thing this morning, appeal or no appeal. 

[sfc4prem]

Just now, LGTL said:

Why on earth is Tonda still here? He should have been sacked first thing this morning, appeal or no appeal. 

Who will lead us out to Wembley?

[Nolan]

1 minute ago, SNSUN said:

Ah i see what you mean now. Then I'm not sure.

When I want to blame someone I usually just pick the wife.

the people who wrote the rules badly, the EFL

[CanadaSaint]

The EFL appeal is focused on the disproportionality of the punishment, and any procedural issues. 

An appeal to the courts would likely involve those matters and others. As I understand it, a disproportional punishment cannot be used to establish a deterrent (Argument 1), and the remedy should seek to restore an aggrieved party to what would rightfully have been theirs if the offence(s) hadn’t been committed. 

We were on a 21-game unbeaten streak when we faced Boro, with zero evidence that any of those games were tainted by spying. Boro, meanwhile, had not been playing well on the run-in. They had clear opportunities to win the first leg but failed to do so for reasons that had nothing to do with the impact of spying. There’s a good argument that Boro were unjustly and unreasonably enriched by the EFL decision (Argument 2).

Boro are not the only club that could claim to have been disadvantaged by our misconduct. Even if our case fails on Argument 1, the EFL is only pursuing Boro’s reinstatement to keep their playoff final alive, and are vulnerable to an accusation of acting in self-interest rather than truly protecting the integrity of the game. There’s a better argument for Hull to be promoted than Boro reinstated.`

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

Not whining about the our lost opportunity when the whole thrust of the penalty is that we sought to gain that unfairly. It was naive at best. 

The apology, yep, the willingness to change, yep, the whining, no. 

What was also conspicuous by it's absence was saying that we've been let down by individuals, and have dealt with them. 

For me, it was misguided and unhelpful. 

That's obviously going to come following the unsuccessful appeal and when we sack a load of people. It's not whining, it's highlighting disproportionately which is clearly what we are going to use to launch legal action when we fail on appeal.

[egg]

Just now, sfc4prem said:

I can see that.

I don't think it will affect our appeal either way, but at last we've heard something from the club.

Im not sure they can say 'we've dealt with them' when they likely haven't, pending the appeal and pending an unlikely return to Wembley.

The point is that they should have. We needed to investigate fully, and be proactive. Instead, we haven't (seemingly) taken any action, and have potentially parked it pending appeal.  Staff behaviour, and the appeal, are separate matters and should be dealt with separately. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Sheaf Saint said:

It worked for Boro.

They weren't facing expulsion. They played the press like a fiddle, but we're the club who broke the rules. 

[ChrisPY]

3 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

Who will lead us out to Wembley?

Neil Warnock.

[Zorba]

Just now, ChrisPY said:

Neil Warnock.

Not bent enough. BFS

[Doctoroncall]

9 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

What Sky have referenced is that there can be no further appeal via the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

What Parsons has done is to publicly mention worse crimes that have resulted in a lighter punishment, and then to put a figure on our potential losses and as such attempt to swing the court of public opinion back into our favour the way Boro have. He didn’t need to mention other clubs and punishments, we’ve already speculated on those privately on here for example.

If the appeal doesn’t go our way it won’t be a legal attempt via the C.A.S., it’ll be direct legal action between the EFL and SFC, and that £200 million figure will be the crux of it all.

Well, we won’t be playing in any EFL competitions next season if that’s the case!  Pretty sure there is an undertaking to abide by the rules which will also include any disciplinary measures. 

[SNSUN]

4 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

Who will lead us out to Wembley?

His time has come. 😬

[tdmickey3]

4 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

Who will lead us out to Wembley?

Jack Stephens

[Jack]

Leeds got a fine
Everton points deduction 
Leicester points deduction 
West Brom points deduction 
Man City nothing after years
Chelsea got a fine 

Southampton expelled within a week

Edited 1 hour ago by Jack

[johnnyboy]

Just now, SNSUN said:

His time has come. 😬

Hope not as that’s going to send @SaintsLoyal over the edge !!

[egg]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That's obviously going to come following the unsuccessful appeal and when we sack a load of people. It's not whining, it's highlighting disproportionately which is clearly what we are going to use to launch legal action when we fail on appeal.

 I'm sure it will, but that doesn't serve as mitigation in the decision, and we can't then argue on appeal that sufficient weight wasn't given to our proactive stance.  I see how fans see it, I am one, but I also see it through legal eyes. 

[Andy Hill]

The question is “is spying worse than breaking the FFP rules” ?? Apparently yes.

[MB]

For what it’s worth I think there is a reasonable chance we could get reinstated. Just doesn’t add up from a legal perspective. I’d say it’s probably 50/50, would not write it off. As I have said previously it’s down to the argument we put forward, if it’s strong enough I would struggle to see how they can impose the original decision

Like it or not the statement is bang on. The punishment doesn’t fit the crime. Our sanction is way out of line in comparison to others. People slagging it off what on earth did you expect him to say. 

 

Tonda is a dead man walking and even if Wembley happens he will not lead us out, however I think perspective is important here. As the statement suggests what we did is rife, we were just stupid enough to get caught 

 

 

 

[sfc4prem]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

The point is that they should have. We needed to investigate fully, and be proactive. Instead, we haven't (seemingly) taken any action, and have potentially parked it pending appeal.  Staff behaviour, and the appeal, are separate matters and should be dealt with separately. 

I guess the club see it as a problem, an issue, but not one that warrants sacking? Interesting point of view. Very European.

[skintsaint]

1 minute ago, Andy Hill said:

The question is “is spying worse than breaking the FFP rules” ?? Apparently yes.

Not if its 73 hours before a game though. Thats ok.

[Ldnsaint]

I can't believe some fans think there's a genuine chance of us being reinstated into a game where we could earn £200m+ 😂

Tonda & Spors etc have got to go. Also not a chance we only did it three times and no point in keep comparing it to Leeds in terms of the expulsion, it wasn't a knock out game!

[Midfield_General]

24 minutes ago, DrSuess1979 said:

Sorry if already said 

Appeal set for 1800 this evening  

Parsons set to be fired at 18.03 once they return the verdict

[SNSUN]

Just now, Ldnsaint said:

I can't believe some fans think there's a genuine chance of us being reinstated into a game where we could earn £200m+ 😂

Tonda & Spors etc have got to go. Also not a chance we only did it three times and no point in keep comparing it to Leeds in terms of the expulsion, it wasn't a knock out game!

I don't think there's many. Boro will be in the final and we'll be left cheering on Hull.

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

 I'm sure it will, but that doesn't serve as mitigation in the decision, and we can't then argue on appeal that sufficient weight wasn't given to our proactive stance.  I see how fans see it, I am one, but I also see it through legal eyes. 

I don't think it really matters. We aren't getting back in and at that point subsequent legal action isn't as interesting to fans. I'm going to enjoy the summer with a few world Cup games and then I'll watch the cricket and ignore football for a while.

[Dr Who?]

Are the bookies giving any odds on us, or are they completely baffled by it all as well? 

[Challenger]

" If it isn't broke, consider breaking it ".

Well it's truly smashed to fuck now, so I'm all ears on what these data-driven, stato nerds are now going to do about it.

They took so long earlier in the season to see that their data picked manager was useless, keeper a liability and the football ineffective without a proper CF. They then stumble upon a winning formula only to then piss it away trying to gain marginal advantages.

They're like an Olympic sprinter wearing wellington boots taking a banned substance to try to improve his time.

Naive as fuck outfit.

[sadoldgit]

4 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Not if its 73 hours before a game though. Thats ok.

Which makes the whole thing a farce.

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

11 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

It worked for Boro.

I'd be going further.

How can it be perfectly within the rules to watch, film, video a team 73 hours before matchday and then if it's 71 hours you're the vilest cheat on earth. Does a bell go off to say teams you can all do your secret stuff now.

The rule is an ass and we need to be making it known in public that we're the ones being cheated. Only one of my mates has texted me to say we were in the wrong, the rest are all saying we have been wronged.

[trousers]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

It also fails to account for the possibility of us losing the final, in which case the financial hit is £0.

One assumes that also applies to any player's claim against the club for financial losses? 

"Sorry lads, you can't say you missed out on promotion bonuses, etc, because you might have lost in the final"