#Spygate

[Fela]

5 minutes ago, coalman said:

Maybe, maybe not. At this point we're naturally going to interpret everything we see on the basis of how we're feeling and what we want to believe to be true to fill in the many gaps in what we know. The human brain is riddled with blind spots in this kind of situation.

Guess we will find out Tuesday then.

[BotleySaint]

This whole saga is a case study of how society has been changed by social media. You can now create for yourself an echo chamber and have your opinions validated, no matter how insane or ridiculous. You can avoid conflicting voices and in doing so, never be challenged. The validation gives you a stronger determination, sense of righteousness and ends up leading to even more insane or ridiculous thoughts. You can even get celebrity figures backing you up.

Until you've lost touch with reality. And anyone who disagrees with you must burn!

Whereas 20 years ago, you might go down the pub and rant to your mates, or your family, or work colleagues. Some might even agree and rant back. But you'd have to give it a rest at some point whilst you wait for the newspaper or evening news to find out the latest.

A small rule breach has turned into this.

Right.. I'm deleting my account 

[saintant]

7 hours ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Middlesbrough will come out of this worse

Yeah, possibly to the tune of north of £200m 🙂

[egg]

1 hour ago, John B said:

So you think being guilty of cheating is fine I do not believe most responsible people would disagree with you.

I do not know if any cheating was carried out but if there was someone surely has to be responsible if SFC is to be respected club

Indeed. Saints must investigate and deal with them correctly. If he's an employee, it'll have to be a proper disciplinary process, if he's self employed they can just can him. We'll also need to understand how it was allowed to happen, who authorised it, who received any information, etc. All of that stuff is relevant to what's happened, and will happen. 

[Toadhall Saint]

9 hours ago, Draino76 said:

Gibbo, an albino raisin that uses ginger hair-dye. What a cunt.

The lesser known twin of Art Garfunkel (as Art disowned poor old Stevie before they got to 5).

[SNSUN]

Good Morning Everyone. Another beautiful, crisp morning. One week until our glorious return to Wembley.

QUE SERA SERA, WHATEVER WILL BE WILL BE, WE'RE GOING TO WEM-BER-LEY, QUE SERA SERA.

 

(For any Boro fans reading this, the Samaritans number is 116123)

[SW11_Saint]

8 hours ago, MB said:

Should be it proven that Tonda is behind it, do we sack him?

I’d hope not - young coach with a promising future - maybe sanction him, short suspension from duty or something (over the summer😉) -  and have him learn from the episode. Interestingly, this is apparently not ‘illegal’ in Germany so maybe there’s a cultural angle here too? 

The biggest issue, if he is proven to be involved, will be the reaction of the media to Tonda and how they continue to stir things up - which will amplify with other fans on SM and in away grounds. That could be too much of a high pressure environment for him. 

Edited 5 hours ago by SW11_Saint

[StrangelyBrown]

This horrific biased and unbalanced trial by media bollocks is boiling my piss. Just listened to some twat from the Times saying that points deduction or a fine wouldn't be sufficient based on his assumption that Middlesbrough do actually have more evidence than they've already presented.

The only evidence in the public domain is pretty weak and if middlesborough had such a hardon about people watching their super secret training why hasn't anyone in the media mentioned anything about them building a fence around their training ground?

[Willo of Whiteley]

So let’s play a game.

What story are Middlesbrough going to leak to the media today to prolong this saga?

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

So let’s play a game.

What story are Middlesbrough going to leak to the media today to prolong this saga?

Tonda murders puppies with his X-Ray vision eyes.

Oh and Spores is really a lizard.

[coalman]

Just now, Willo of Whiteley said:

So let’s play a game.

What story are Middlesbrough going to leak to the media today to prolong this saga?

Pretty sure that at some point they're going to imply we're in cahoots with the EFL which is why they've been frozen out of the hearing as to why any judgement from it couldn't be trusted.

[lambtiss]

8 hours ago, MB said:

Should be it proven that Tonda is behind it, do we sack him?

No, he's taken a relegation fighting team to the edge of the Premiership, uniting the team and the fan base in the process.

Back him and hopefully get his loyalty in return. 

[obelisk]

6 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

Interestingly, this is apparently not ‘illegal’ in Germany

Are there any other leagues where it is specifically against the rules? Apparently it goes on all the time but the trick is not to get caught, especially against teams that are run by bad losers with a grievance.

Maybe if EFL teams were so worried about it they'd stop doing it themselves and maybe invest in a fence.

[Stud mark of doom]

Cheated is a very emotive word.

It sounds like we might have broken a rule which is unique in the world of football, in the EFL only, for which no punishment is specified. And which might well be widely flouted. 
 

This is like driving slightly over 70mph on the motorway territory - and not for very long, as we spotted a police car.

Boro want to bring back hanging as the punishment. 

[Sunglasses Ron]

46 minutes ago, BotleySaint said:

This whole saga is a case study of how society has been changed by social media. You can now create for yourself an echo chamber and have your opinions validated, no matter how insane or ridiculous. You can avoid conflicting voices and in doing so, never be challenged. The validation gives you a stronger determination, sense of righteousness and ends up leading to even more insane or ridiculous thoughts. You can even get celebrity figures backing you up.

Until you've lost touch with reality. And anyone who disagrees with you must burn!

Whereas 20 years ago, you might go down the pub and rant to your mates, or your family, or work colleagues. Some might even agree and rant back. But you'd have to give it a rest at some point whilst you wait for the newspaper or evening news to find out the latest.

A small rule breach has turned into this.

Right.. I'm deleting my account 

This is very true.

And the one thing they all seem to be missing is PERSPECTIVE!

Currently, it’s like someone nicking a bag of sweets and demanding the death penalty in return.

[Cuddles]

16 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Tonda murders puppies with his X-Ray vision eyes.

Oh and Spores is really a lizard.

Needs to be something made up 

[AlexLaw76]

Whilst we have been called the Zionist club, I have yet to see a Boro linked post calling Tonda a Nazi

[offsidetrap]

10 minutes ago, lambtiss said:

Back him and hopefully get his loyalty in return. 

In the worst case scenario, do a deal with rangers (who may have had three ex Saints in the manager seat in recent years if you include SD) to swap with Danny (who needs a break) for the duration of the ban. Nobody will be able to tell the difference with a bit of a haircut.

[Badger]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Just looked online, yep, still chatter from the Boro side that this was the worst crime ever. 
 

 

Will Salt has already overtaken Ian Huntley, Fred & Rose West, and is now only a few votes behind Myra Hindley in a Teeside poll on Britains worst criminal.
 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Badger

[AlexLaw76]

Loads of posts online with a preamble like “you can’t tone down the severity of what Southampton have done”

you would have thought we are the biggest baddest cheats ever to grace the game

fucking unreal

[St Chalet]

Was Bielsa sacked for doing this?

[Saint Billy]

Whatever the outcome I do worry that it might contribute to Tonda leaving especially with interest in Germany. He might not fancy the prospect of continually being scrutinized in the future until it eventually all calms down.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, St Chalet said:

Was Bielsa sacked for doing this?

Nope, and the Sycophant Henry Winter thought a touch line ban was way too harsh at the time

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Stud mark of doom said:

Cheated is a very emotive word.

It sounds like we might have broken a rule which is unique in the world of football, in the EFL only, for which no punishment is specified. And which might well be widely flouted. 
 

This is like driving slightly over 70mph on the motorway territory - and not for very long, as we spotted a police car.

Boro want to bring back hanging as the punishment. 

Yep. I'd describe it as us doing 78mph for a very short time, seeing a cop car and slowing down. Boro are making out that we were doing 178mph whilst pissed up, coked up, with no insurance or licence, were weaving over the road, and did it every week. 

[Badger]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Whilst we have been called the Zionist club, I have yet to see a Boro linked post calling Tonda a Nazi

What the fuck ??? 

[St Chalet]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

Loads of posts online with a preamble like “you can’t tone down the severity of what Southampton have done”

you would have thought we are the biggest baddest cheats ever to grace the game

fucking unreal

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/cqjd1p98l4jo
 

Someone comparing what we did to this 😂

A systematic pre-planned operation to cheat on the field with associated cover up.

Aussies and their sandpaper etc. 

This is a football Badger on an iPhone 2 days before a game FFS. 

[St Chalet]

3 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

Whatever the outcome I do worry that it might contribute to Tonda leaving especially with interest in Germany. He might not fancy the prospect of continually being scrutinized in the future until it eventually all calms down.

Depends how much he knew. Also what league we are in next year. 

[AlexLaw76]

4 minutes ago, St Chalet said:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/cqjd1p98l4jo
 

Someone comparing what we did to this 😂

A systematic pre-planned operation to cheat on the field with associated cover up.

Aussies and their sandpaper etc. 

This is a football Badger on an iPhone 2 days before a game FFS. 

As for many of the pundits weighing in, we are simply a bit of low hanging fruit for them to manifest their moral outrage at the wider failings of the game’s integrity, whilst  they all champion some of the greatest serial cheaters ever in English football

Edited 5 hours ago by AlexLaw76

[Badger]

18 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Maybe if EFL teams were so worried about it they'd stop doing it themselves and maybe invest in a fence.

They might need to upgrade with a fence, but tired of reading the comment about their fence, security arrangements, and being visible from a public place. It’s irrelevant. 
 

If Saints were training on Southampton Common other teams are still prohibited from spying on us. 

[egg]

Just now, Badger said:

They might need to upgrade with a fence, but tired of reading the comment about their fence, security arrangements, and being visible from a public place. It’s irrelevant. 
 

If Saints were training on Southampton Common other teams are still prohibited from spying on us. 

Yep. It's a daft argument. We can't control what they don't do, but needed to have controlled what we did. 

[st john moor]

https://www.stewartslaw.com/news/spy-games-what-are-the-possible-repercussions-of-the-southampton-v-middlesbrough-play-off-spying-allegations/

 

A bit worrying when you read this.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

36 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

So let’s play a game.

What story are Middlesbrough going to leak to the media today to prolong this saga?

 

33 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Tonda murders puppies with his X-Ray vision eyes.

Oh and Spores is really a lizard.

Summer signings Stalin and Genghis Khan will no longer be joining, as Tonda is a meanie.

Edited 4 hours ago by Holmes_and_Watson

[Hawkswood]

10 hours ago, Turkish said:

They’ve got a manager who cries on tv and a team that gets bullied by ball boys, you can’t expect them to be laurel and hardy pal

Woke up and read that. Now that's  funny. 

Good work, probably not good enough to catch @miltonaggro  but always worth a bash. Sorry dude 😉

[Holmes_and_Watson]

13 minutes ago, St Chalet said:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/cqjd1p98l4jo
 

Someone comparing what we did to this 😂

A systematic pre-planned operation to cheat on the field with associated cover up.

Aussies and their sandpaper etc. 

This is a football Badger on an iPhone 2 days before a game FFS. 

@Badger or/and @badgerx16 are involved?!

Just how many on SaintsWeb are paid club operatives, across the country, and how much did the mods know and organise it?

#forumgate

 

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

1 hour ago, BotleySaint said:

This whole saga is a case study of how society has been changed by social media. You can now create for yourself an echo chamber and have your opinions validated, no matter how insane or ridiculous. You can avoid conflicting voices and in doing so, never be challenged. The validation gives you a stronger determination, sense of righteousness and ends up leading to even more insane or ridiculous thoughts. You can even get celebrity figures backing you up.

Until you've lost touch with reality. And anyone who disagrees with you must burn!

Whereas 20 years ago, you might go down the pub and rant to your mates, or your family, or work colleagues. Some might even agree and rant back. But you'd have to give it a rest at some point whilst you wait for the newspaper or evening news to find out the latest.

A small rule breach has turned into this.

Right.. I'm deleting my account 

Given the north east is so stuck in the past, is this where they finally have an edge on us?

[skintsaint]

10 minutes ago, st john moor said:

https://www.stewartslaw.com/news/spy-games-what-are-the-possible-repercussions-of-the-southampton-v-middlesbrough-play-off-spying-allegations/

 

A bit worrying when you read this.

As said before if that happens we will appeal and still play the final.

[Sheaf Saint]

12 minutes ago, st john moor said:

https://www.stewartslaw.com/news/spy-games-what-are-the-possible-repercussions-of-the-southampton-v-middlesbrough-play-off-spying-allegations/

 

A bit worrying when you read this.

Interesting first post from someone who only joined the forum on Monday.

And this linked article is just pure speculation that doesn't say anything that hasn't already been suggested elsewhere.

Edited 4 hours ago by Sheaf Saint

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, John B said:

So you think being guilty of cheating is fine I do not believe most responsible people would disagree with you.

I do not know if any cheating was carried out but if there was someone surely has to be responsible if SFC is to be respected club

The word “cheating” is currently doing a lot of heavy lifting. Yes it is wrong but football has been full of cheating forever. Players dive for penalties, roll around to try and get another player booked or sent off, waste time, kick others out of the game etc. Are we going to have an outburst of moral outrage every time these things happen in a game now? Of course not. From what we know a young lad at the beginning of his career has been found to have been in attendance of a rivals training session within 72 hours of a match. Apparently this rule only applies in the EFL, but rules are rules. He was approached and asked to delete any data recorded, which he apparently did. That being the case, no advantage can have been gained. Be honest, is this form of cheating any worse than Ayling taking Leo’s knee out? Frankly I would say it was a lesser offence given how important Scienza is to the club.

We will never know how much that data would have helped us had he not been caught out. My guess is not very much given how much that totally battered us in the first game. 

How much did the “cheating” towards one of key players affect us? Well, we went on to win but Scienza was hobbling for much of the game and was clearly not at his most effective.

There is no perspective in this situation. One incident had been blown up out of all proportion whilst the other forgotten as just part of the game. Well checking out the opposition is also part of the game, and doing so at 71 hours rather than 73 hours does not suddenly make Southampton FC guilty of the biggest cheating scam in football.
 

[Andy Hill]

Whatever way this goes it could get even more “ugly” after Tuesday.  Just hope our continued silence means that we are sure that our defence is sound.

[Hawkswood]

1 hour ago, BotleySaint said:

This whole saga is a case study of how society has been changed by social media. You can now create for yourself an echo chamber and have your opinions validated, no matter how insane or ridiculous. You can avoid conflicting voices and in doing so, never be challenged. The validation gives you a stronger determination, sense of righteousness and ends up leading to even more insane or ridiculous thoughts. You can even get celebrity figures backing you up.

Until you've lost touch with reality. And anyone who disagrees with you must burn!

Whereas 20 years ago, you might go down the pub and rant to your mates, or your family, or work colleagues. Some might even agree and rant back. But you'd have to give it a rest at some point whilst you wait for the newspaper or evening news to find out the latest.

A small rule breach has turned into this.

Right.. I'm deleting my account 

Sorry to be a dick but this is only 50% true. Whilst I agree that social media has an AWFUL lot to do with this  - its why I personally dont use social media at all, I think its a cesspit, its a tactic that fox news has been using for a couple of decades. One of my slightly sad passtimes is a passion for American politics  for the past 30 years and what fox news would do is create a headline from something innocuous, then they would get one of their morning shows to run a segment which in turn would be picked up by a later edition of a news programme on fox and so on and on until its been brought into the national consciousness. Its very clever and creates its own headlines depending what   Murdoch ( or Ailes at the time) wants their agenda to be. Thats the first I know of of  creating an echo chamber but I do totally agree with you, social media just ramps it up into overdrive to reach out to many more people.

Okay, Im done.

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, st john moor said:

https://www.stewartslaw.com/news/spy-games-what-are-the-possible-repercussions-of-the-southampton-v-middlesbrough-play-off-spying-allegations/

 

A bit worrying when you read this.

Not really. The issue is that the EFL regulations, unlike the Law, fail to stipulate what level of sanction applies to any particular breach of their rules. Therefore technically "all options" are available for ANY transgression: it's like a Judge telling a shoplifter that he faces a penalty ranging from 10 hours of community service all the way up to a life sentence without parole.

There is an argument for following precedent, however in this case there is none; Swindon committed a serious financial breach, and Leeds admitted they were "spying" all season. We are the first to be charged under this rule so we simply have to wait to see if the club's pleas on mitigation are successful. Any noise coming from Teesside SHOULD be irrelevant.

 

[Matthew Le God]

25 minutes ago, Badger said:

They might need to upgrade with a fence, but tired of reading the comment about their fence, security arrangements, and being visible from a public place. It’s irrelevant. 
 

If Saints were training on Southampton Common other teams are still prohibited from spying on us. 

It isn't irrelevant. Clubs would still be guilty of spying and warrant punishment for that. But it is relevant to the servity of the offence. Clubs that make no effort to enclose their training ground from public view can't then justify that the training sessions were highly secretive as any member of the public could view them and then publish them online (even if just in written notes rather than videos) for the world to see. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Matthew Le God

[badgerx16]

9 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

@Badger or/and @badgerx16 are involved?!

Just how many on SaintsWeb are paid club operatives, across the country, and how much did the mods know and organise it?

#forumgate

 

I am sworn to secrecy. If I told you I would then be obliged to keeel you.

[Saint_clark]

18 minutes ago, st john moor said:

https://www.stewartslaw.com/news/spy-games-what-are-the-possible-repercussions-of-the-southampton-v-middlesbrough-play-off-spying-allegations/

 

A bit worrying when you read this.

That article fails to acknowledge that in this case, this "knock out competition" follows a league phase and so a points deduction is entirely appropriate. 

 

But I do think a lot of people on here are burying their head in the sands a bit - it's pretty clear at this point that us being kicked out is a very real possibility.

[St Chalet]

36 minutes ago, Stud mark of doom said:

Cheated is a very emotive word.

It sounds like we might have broken a rule which is unique in the world of football, in the EFL only, for which no punishment is specified. And which might well be widely flouted. 
 

This is like driving slightly over 70mph on the motorway territory - and not for very long, as we spotted a police car.

Boro want to bring back hanging as the punishment. 

Great analogy, on any given back road this a non-story.

[Fabrice29]

29 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Nope, and the Sycophant Henry Winter thought a touch line ban was way too harsh at the time

In fairness to Winter (horrible sentence that I’ll never write again), Bielsa didn’t break any rules. That’s the point.

23 minutes ago, Badger said:

They might need to upgrade with a fence, but tired of reading the comment about their fence, security arrangements, and being visible from a public place. It’s irrelevant. 
 

If Saints were training on Southampton Common other teams are still prohibited from spying on us. 

💯 That MLG is obsessed with these details and keeps posting about it anywhere he can. It’s really missing the point.

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

 

💯 That MLG is obsessed with these details and keeps posting about it anywhere he can. It’s really missing the point.

It isn't irrelevant. Clubs would still be guilty of spying and warrant punishment for that. But it is relevant to the servity of the offence. Clubs that make no effort to enclose their training ground from public view can't then justify that the training sessions were highly secretive (like Middlesbrough's manager has) as any member of the public could view them and then publish them online (even if just in written notes rather than videos) for the world to see. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Matthew Le God

[Fabrice29]

3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

It isn't irrelevant. Clubs would still be guilty of spying and warrant punishment for that. But it is relevant to the servity of the offence. Clubs that make no effort to enclose their training ground from public view can't then justify that the training sessions were highly secretive as any member of the public could view them and then publish them online for the world to see. 

Jesus Christ stop with this angle 😂

[egg]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Not really. The issue is that the EFL regulations, unlike the Law, fail to stipulate what level of sanction applies to any particular breach of their rules. Therefore technically "all options" are available for ANY transgression: it's like a Judge telling a shoplifter that he faces a penalty ranging from 10 hours of community service all the way up to a life sentence without parole.

There is an argument for following precedent, however in this case there is none; Swindon committed a serious financial breach, and Leeds admitted they were "spying" all season. We are the first to be charged under this rule so we simply have to wait to see if the club's pleas on mitigation are successful. Any noise coming from Teesside SHOULD be irrelevant.

 

The article is credible, and highlights the issues correctly. Don't be seduced by Miltons piece. Our main issue is deterrent - a chunky fine, and points that don't impact us if we get promoted, don't serve as a deterrent. Leeds were doing it in the regular season, and before it was a specific offence, so it's a false comparison imo. There is no Swindon comparison. 

I still think a fine and deferred points is where we'll end up though, mainly due to our right of appeal, and timing. 

[Zorba]

28 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

It isn't irrelevant. Clubs would still be guilty of spying and warrant punishment for that. But it is relevant to the servity of the offence. Clubs that make no effort to enclose their training ground from public view can't then justify that the training sessions were highly secretive as any member of the public could view them and then publish them online (even if just in written notes rather than videos) for the world to see.

Yep, 

You”re not supposed to look at another bloke’s bird’s tits on the beach, but we all do it.

I don’t mind taking a poke in the eye for it but chopping my balls off would be a bit much!

 

 

..

Edited 4 hours ago by Zorba