#Spygate

[coalman]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

“Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive”

Which applies equally to what has been briefed to the press against us as much as it does to our own case.

[Pip]

People keep saying we haven't contested the charge and therefore we have accepted it.  Is there actually a mechanism to contest the charge before the hearing?

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, scumbag said:

BBC News - Josef Mengele: Switzerland finally to open secret files on Nazis' Auschwitz 'Angel of Death' - BBC News

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgjpyqjj8y4o

Might take some of the heat off Salty for a few hours at least.

 

Until it comes out that one of Eckerts grandparents was best mates with Mengele.

[scumbag]

.

Edited 8 hours ago by scumbag
Poor language

[Saint_clark]

Just now, Pip said:

People keep saying we haven't contested the charge and therefore we have accepted it.  Is there actually a mechanism to contest the charge before the hearing?

Talksport keep saying because we haven't denied it publicly that means we're admitting our guilt. 

 

I think we WILL admit our guilt, but that line of thinking is just utter nonsense.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, Pip said:

People keep saying we haven't contested the charge and therefore we have accepted it.  Is there actually a mechanism to contest the charge before the hearing?

Only in the court of public opinion. 

[bpsaint]

2 minutes ago, Pip said:

People keep saying we haven't contested the charge and therefore we have accepted it.  Is there actually a mechanism to contest the charge before the hearing?

I thought we had only acknowledged the charge, and were working with the EFL on the matter.

[hypochondriac]

13 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

As said, I am changing my mind by the hour.

There must be a fairly compelling case for it to get to this point. 

I have always maintained that timing could play a big factor for us, given the game is next week

Once it was clear it was out intern it was always going to get to this point regardless. We may be kicked out or we may not but the timing of the hearing will have nothing to do with it. 

[coalman]

Just now, bpsaint said:

I thought we had only acknowledged the charge, and were working with the EFL on the matter.

As I see it - the only way we wouldn't contest the charge would be if we didn't have someone watching the train in the 72 hours leading up to the game. And if we have evidence of that the hearing would have been over already.

[sadoldgit]

I know it is easy to be glib about this whole situation as we won, but wonder how we would have reacted if in the same position as Boro?

I’d like to think that we would slag off the manager, his tactics, the substitutions, the lack of fitness and the dreadful finishing. We’d have a laugh at Boro’s pathetic attempt at espionage and say that everyone knows our players can’t hit a cow’s arse with a banjo anyway so why bother? We’d understand that we lost due to our own shortcomings and find people to blame for not being able to hang on the second place. There would be much swearing and falling out between posters about who was responsible and who should be binned off. The club would issue a statement thanking the fans for their support, stating an intent to go again next year, We March On etc.

Perhaps I am just old and senile, but I find it hard to imagine that we would kick off at Middlesbrough in the same way that they have done to us.

As I say, easy enough to say now, but I just don’t think that we are that twattish.

I just can’t imagine how a bloke with a phone standing by a tree hundreds of yards away from anything of interest could possible be so important that it shares a BBC News programme that led with Trump meeting Xi in China.

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, Pip said:

People keep saying we haven't contested the charge and therefore we have accepted it.  Is there actually a mechanism to contest the charge before the hearing?

If we were investigating who knew what and when how could we contest the charge if we didn't know the facts? 

[Ken Tone]

9 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Just trying to understand the perspectives of this picture

 

what is the green pole there doing?

I thought the club house/hotel was virtually behind him?

the picture is taken from virtually in front of the subject  -appreciate it could of been from a distance but still.

not trying to start a conspiracy theory just honestly think it looks a bit weird 

 

Quite. Must have been  taken from fairly close to be that quality. Surely he'd have seen he was being photographed, and reacted. Not just stood there holding his phone up.

[do i not like fizzy pop]

30 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Like a Monty Python sketch...

 

Things would be very different if Will Salt watched this video before his trip...

 

 

Posted the How Not to be Seen sketch days ago, keep up 🙄

[coalman]

1 minute ago, Ken Tone said:

Quite. Must have been  taken from fairly close to be that quality. Surely he'd have seen he was being photographed, and reacted. Not just stood there holding his phone up.

If it's taken by a club photographer it's likely to have been a long lens. Could've been a long way away.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, Ken Tone said:

Quite. Must have been  taken from fairly close to be that quality. Surely he'd have seen he was being photographed, and reacted. Not just stood there holding his phone up.

I'd be interested to know how many young lads standing by that tree and holding a phone would have been subjected to the same investigate treatment. 

[Ken Tone]

Just now, coalman said:

If it's taken by a club photographer it's likely to have been a long lens. Could've been a long way away.

Oh, you mean with sophisticated surveillance equipment? 😉

[Whitey Grandad]

3 minutes ago, Ken Tone said:

Quite. Must have been  taken from fairly close to be that quality. Surely he'd have seen he was being photographed, and reacted. Not just stood there holding his phone up.

Was anyone training actually taking place at the time of that photo?

[Divergent]

4 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

 

Perhaps I am just old and senile, but I find it hard to imagine that we would kick off at Middlesbrough in the same way that they have done to us.

I don’t believe we’d have reported it to the EFL. A phone call to Mboro saying how pleased we were that they were so concerned about the coming game that they’d decided to have an early look at us would be enough. 

[Miltonaggro]

17 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It isn't dragging on. The deadline is Tuesday at the latest it's dragging on the exact amount of time it was yesterday. 

Lots of people will be involved in this process at different points - comings and goings - so likely to use the three days to absorb logistics. I would think we will get the press release either midday Tuesday after decision on Monday, or late afternoon (to avoid immediate reaction from either club). Saints will have been very firm on their response to a disproportionate sanction. Still think it will be a fine and ‘something else’ and SFC may well appeal the something else. Any notion of expulsion and Solak will go to law immediately and the EFL may well have to delay their Wembley final or promotion announcements as a result. No point in panicking or doomsaying at this point. 

[Midfield_General]

Personally I’m just looking forward to the FA Cup final coverage today, and the BBC, press and pundits talking non stop about Man City’s 115 much more serious charges and how they should be thrown out of all competitions. 

Because they’ll definitely do that, right? 

[Ted Bates Statue]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

I know it is easy to be glib about this whole situation as we won, but wonder how we would have reacted if in the same position as Boro?

 

Pretty much the same as you, we'd cringe at Cortese or Lowe if they did anything like what Steve Karen Gibson is up to, knowing that if we got reinstated we'd still have the same problems. It wasn't too long ago we had Armstrong up front and Tonda couldn't get us playing for more than 45 minutes, so we know what it's like. The media are mostly baying for blood because Southampton won't play their stupid games.

Then when the 'evidence' got released we'd become the EFL's laughing stock.

There would probably be a good deal of frustration at the idea of someone coming to watch us, but the idea that we've been violated would be played down.

Not looking forward to a potential points deduction which I still think would be incredibly excessive, although if it were the other round perhaps I would think it was deserved but not give it much more thought. 

I've heard Boro's experience being equated to that of a rape victim (even by some dolts on our side), which is a truly ludicrous and appalling comparison to make.

[do i not like fizzy pop]

7 minutes ago, coalman said:

As I see it - the only way we wouldn't contest the charge would be if we didn't have someone watching the train in the 72 hours leading up to the game. And if we have evidence of that the hearing would have been over already.

I dunno, maybe we've a whole dossier of intel of occasions during the season when other club analysts have been spotted trying to view training sessions at Staplewood (including those from Borough) during the 72 hour period, complete with shonky photos and IDs gained from LinkedIn? 

SFC "Yes, we're guilty, but EFL before you pass judgement and sanction you may want to look through this, because if you make an example of us and bow to Gibbos attempts to interfere with the process then we're going public with the whole thing" 

EFL "Shit." 

🤣🤣🤣

[LegalEagle]

15 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Talksport keep saying because we haven't denied it publicly that means we're admitting our guilt. 

 

I think we WILL admit our guilt, but that line of thinking is just utter nonsense.

The media are taking the approach they are here because we’ve pissed them off by not talking about it or giving interviews or making statements whilst it is being decided. The correct and proper approach by a professional outfit. Whereas the Boro lot cannot keep their mouths shut and are providing the media with material. The gutter press in this country love that. Boro are acting like a bunch of desperate amateurs.

[CB Fry]

51 minutes ago, Zorba said:

Where does it say that? We haven’t admitted anything.

Show me where we have denied anything.

[bolo]

If Boro win this, will they go after the refs for the last minute pen against Ipswich, sack their strikers and fitness coach for being shit. They might as well sure everything that didn't go their way. That's the message I would be getting

[coalman]

8 minutes ago, do i not like fizzy pop said:

I dunno, maybe we've a whole dossier of intel of occasions during the season when other club analysts have been spotted trying to view training sessions at Staplewood (including those from Borough) during the 72 hour period, complete with shonky photos and IDs gained from LinkedIn? 

SFC "Yes, we're guilty, but EFL before you pass judgement and sanction you may want to look through this, because if you make an example of us and bow to Gibbos attempts to interfere with the process then we're going public with the whole thing" 

EFL "Shit." 

🤣🤣🤣

That wouldn't alter the fact that we'd breached the rules as they stand but it would offer substantial mitigation of what happens next.

Until the panel publishes its findings, we hear the sanction (if any) and from Saints it's all just speculation.

Edited 8 hours ago by coalman

[BotleySaint]

What is frustrating me: There are so many in the media and beyond who seem to be spouting moral outrage about the spying aspect. As if the spying was the crime. Yet its perfectly OK if its outside the 72 hour window and not a breach of rules. Right?

Spying or, one could use the word simply watching other teams train, is normal.

The crime was (alledgedly) doing this at the wrong time.

I hope the panel deciding on this can separate these out and look at the actual fault.

We aren't being put on trial for spying. But for the timing of it. At least that is what i understand.. unless they are saying watching another team train, at any time, is wrong.

[Saint NL]

4 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

Personally I’m just looking forward to the FA Cup final coverage today, and the BBC, press and pundits talking non stop about Man City’s 115 much more serious charges and how they should be thrown out of all competitions. 

Because they’ll definitely do that, right? 

Alternatively you can watch the final round of the SPL games and see if Celtic can win the league after that dodgy refereeing decision in midweek.

Or wait until tomorrow and see if West Ham can put aside their legal dispute over the disallowed goal to one side and get a result against the financially doped Newcastle.

Just another weekend in the clean, clean world of professional football 

[coalman]

Just now, bolo said:

If Boro win this, will they go after the refs for the last minute pen against Ipswich, sack their strikers and fitness coach for being shit. They might as well sure everything that didn't go their way. That's the message I would be getting

It reminds me of last season when Martin blamed everything but his own tactics for what went on. That created a culture where people didn't take responsibility that carried over into this season. It meant that when anything went against us on the pitch our heads would drop and we'd give up because we knew it "wasn't our fault". 

Compare that to Hull's response. Which amounts to "we'll beat whoever you put in front of us on the pitch and please stop fucking with our fans". 

[obelisk]

9 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Was anyone training actually taking place at the time of that photo?

Given the evidence in the 2 matches I'd say they'd have been lying on the ground worn out and puffing. Maybe that's what the "spy" discovered.

[LGTL]

27 minutes ago, Saint NL said:

This time last week we were just about to play the first leg of the semi final. It's been a long week

In hindsight, there’s probably no way that game should have been played 😂

Oh well. 

[do i not like fizzy pop]

1 minute ago, coalman said:

That would alter the fact that we'd breached the rules as they stand but it would offer substantial mitigation of what happens next.

Until the panel publishes its findings, we hear the sanction (if any) and from Saints it's all just speculation.

I wasn't being serious, hence the laughing things.

Though in my opinion this whole spying thing is tacitly accepted by clubs and analyst's move from club to club. Gibbo has opened a massive can of worms.

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, Miltonaggro said:

Lots of people will be involved in this process at different points - comings and goings - so likely to use the three days to absorb logistics. I would think we will get the press release either midday Tuesday after decision on Monday, or late afternoon (to avoid immediate reaction from either club). Saints will have been very firm on their response to a disproportionate sanction. Still think it will be a fine and ‘something else’ and SFC may well appeal the something else. Any notion of expulsion and Solak will go to law immediately and the EFL may well have to delay their Wembley final or promotion announcements as a result. No point in panicking or doomsaying at this point. 

Cheers for your posts they are very informative. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

I guess the question I have about the bit in bold is, are the play-offs really part of the league. Or legally speaking are they are completely different entity as a knock out competition?

I assume the former? I which case, I agree with the rest of it...

If the latter, then I guess there's a higher risk of getting kicked out. Still highly unlikely and massively disproportionate to the "crime" (imo) but if it happens there would, and should, be no benefit to Boro in terms of being reinstated. The only logical outcome of that is for Hull be promoted by default. Obviously the EFL will be keen to avoid that though because of money from the final.

I see it as knock out competition after the league itself has finished, although you could see it the other way. However you cut it, a points deduction in this league doesn't punish us if we go up, and a chunky fine won't touch the sides. 

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, Miltonaggro said:

Lots of people will be involved in this process at different points - comings and goings - so likely to use the three days to absorb logistics. I would think we will get the press release either midday Tuesday after decision on Monday, or late afternoon (to avoid immediate reaction from either club). Saints will have been very firm on their response to a disproportionate sanction. Still think it will be a fine and ‘something else’ and SFC may well appeal the something else. Any notion of expulsion and Solak will go to law immediately and the EFL may well have to delay their Wembley final or promotion announcements as a result. No point in panicking or doomsaying at this point. 

Are the panel likely to take into account any of the conduct of Middlesbrough over the past few days including the statement on their website when deciding on sanctions? 

[LegalEagle]

13 minutes ago, Miltonaggro said:

Lots of people will be involved in this process at different points - comings and goings - so likely to use the three days to absorb logistics. I would think we will get the press release either midday Tuesday after decision on Monday, or late afternoon (to avoid immediate reaction from either club). Saints will have been very firm on their response to a disproportionate sanction. Still think it will be a fine and ‘something else’ and SFC may well appeal the something else. Any notion of expulsion and Solak will go to law immediately and the EFL may well have to delay their Wembley final or promotion announcements as a result. No point in panicking or doomsaying at this point. 

I think this is pretty much spot on. The longer the decision is announced (not made necessarily) the better it is for us in terms of outcome. If a decision were to come out this weekend then I suspect it will be bad news for us.

[EssEffCee]

1 hour ago, Saint NL said:

When Boro line up against Pompey in the Championship next season, who do you want to win? 

It's a tricky one....

Boro, by about seventeen goals to nil preferably. Daft question.

Honestly this place has turned almost as batshit as the Boro forum the last couple of days.

From the people saying how open their training ground is like that's in any way relevant, to those saying "but if we did it 24 hours before it wouldn't be a problem" as if that's any sort of defence.

Fucking mentalists.

[Toadhall Saint]

Sorry if already asked but Regarding the 72 hours - when does the click start? Is it 72 hours before kick off or 72 hours before the day of the match?

[SNSUN]

1 hour ago, Saint NL said:

When Boro line up against Pompey in the Championship next season, who do you want to win? 

It's a tricky one....

I'm not sure how Premier League Middlesbrough will play Championship Pompey in the League next season, so that's difficult to answer. Our match next season vs Hull though - that will be a cracker.  😁

[Saint In Cornwall]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

I see it as knock out competition after the league itself has finished, although you could see it the other way. However you cut it, a points deduction in this league doesn't punish us if we go up, and a chunky fine won't touch the sides. 

If you go to the EFL site the playoffs are indeed listed as a separate competition.

https://www.efl.com/competitions

[egg]

45 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Im with Lord Duckhunter, I think the longer it pushes to Tuesday the more likely we are getting pushed out. Whether Boro replace us is another matter

 

What about our right to appeal? That's our right, if we go down in flames, and that won't conclude prior to the game. 

[St. Mulv]

35 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Just trying to understand the perspectives of this picture

 

what is the green pole there doing?

I thought the club house/hotel was virtually behind him?

the picture is taken from virtually in front of the subject  -appreciate it could of been from a distance but still.

not trying to start a conspiracy theory just honestly think it looks a bit weird 

 

I’ve wondered about the green post. Does it have cctv on it? If so, surely they caught him very quickly. 

[hypochondriac]

I'd also be interested to know whether the EFL would consider a less harsh sanction if it avoided them having to move the final with all the upheaval that entails. Maybe that wouldn't be a factor I don't know. 

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

What about our right to appeal? That's our right, if we go down in flames, and that won't conclude prior to the game. 

I know, I am just being a melt

[Turkish]

I know there one of the points being argued is that the rules didn’t exist when Leeds got done for it but even so to go from a £200k and a slap on the wrists to kicked out of one of the biggest games ever for the same offence is a huge leap. I just don’t see how one team can get little more than a slap on the wrist and another get absolutely hammered for the same thing and I would expect our defence case to argue this too. The worst I think we’ll get is a heavy fine and suspended points deduction. I still can’t get my head round why we’ve done it so at the back of my mind do wonder if there is something in the honey trap/whistle blower conspiracy theory but i guess we will never know.

[Badger]

35 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Until it comes out that one of Eckerts grandparents was best mates with Mengele.

Don’t forget that Marcus drove a panzer in an SS Division. According to another Portsmyth.

Truly remarkable as this was despite not being born at the time. 
 

(Haven’t researched if the SS had panzer divisions). 

[Challenger]

12 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Given the evidence in the 2 matches I'd say they'd have been lying on the ground worn out and puffing. Maybe that's what the "spy" discovered.

Maybe he discovered that James Corden was taking the Boro fitness sessions ? Makes sense as the fat fucker seems very outspoken on the issue and Boro blow out of their arses after 60 mins.

[egg]

8 minutes ago, Saint In Cornwall said:

If you go to the EFL site the playoffs are indeed listed as a separate competition.

https://www.efl.com/competitions

Thanks, I hadn't seen that, but it makes sense. 

[benjii]

1 hour ago, There when Franny scored said:

While I don’t agree with it, this is not great reading, and is written by sensible people for once:

https://www.stewartslaw.com/news/spy-games-what-are-the-possible-repercussions-of-the-southampton-v-middlesbrough-play-off-spying-allegations/

Some two-bit law firm looking for clicks.

[Saintinnot]

Yes they did have Panzer Divisions