#Spygate

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

They had 31 attempts on goal in the first leg and scored...........0.

That and they were blown after 60 minutes of each leg. That is why they missed out on the final.

The alleged spying had no effect on the matches.

It is very unlikely to have had an effect on the match in fact it probably fired Boro up but it could have had an effect and we broke the rules and it has to be assumed that it had some impact.

[die Mannyschaft]

50 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

What difference does that make? We would have known that he was or was not playing an hour before kick off and could make any amendments to our tactics.

I don't belive any training goes on at Boro training ground. Perhaps the footage evidence will show players missing the goal and falling over.

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

It is very unlikely to have had an effect on the match in fact it probably fired Boro up but it could have had an effect and we broke the rules and it has to be assumed that it had some impact.

But they have not suffered a financial hit from anybody's actions or failures, other than their own.

[CanadaSaint]

9 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

But they have not suffered a financial hit from anybody's actions or failures, other than their own.

Absolutely. They’re looking for someone to blame but they should be looking in the mirror.

They were the ones who missed the chances, not us or William Salt or Tonda.

And they were the ones who hired a coach who had them playing an aggressive, hard press that they weren’t fit enough to sustain. In fact, this is probably why they shit the bed on the run-in. So they were the ones who threw away their auto place. They shouldn’t have needed the playoffs.

Orchestrators of their own misfortune. Cry me a river.

[die Mannyschaft]

Will we get the verdict tomorrow by 4.30pm? 

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

3 minutes ago, CanadaSaint said:

Absolutely. They’re looking for someone to blame but they should be looking in the mirror.

They were the ones who missed the chances, not us or William Salt or Tonda.

And they were the ones who hired a coach who had them playing an aggressive, hard press that they weren’t fit enough to sustain. In fact, this is probably why they shit the bed on the run-in. So they were the ones who threw away their auto place. They shouldn’t have needed the playoffs.

Orchestrators of their own misfortune. Cry me a river.

Think like a lawyer

[Saint Scott]

6 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Will we get the verdict tomorrow by 4.30pm? 

By Tuesday at the latest, I believe

[Whitey Grandad]

7 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Will we get the verdict tomorrow by 4.30pm? 

By Tuesday whatever that means.

[CanadaSaint]

2 minutes ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

Think like a lawyer

Those are citable reasons for them missing out. Your turn. Produce one citable example of how the alleged spying caused them to lose. Not some wild and unprovable assumption.

[Saint Scott]

To clarify; the hearing will take place on or before Tuesday 19th May. 

That doesn't necessarily mean we'll have a verdict the same day

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

1 minute ago, die Mannyschaft said:

I don't belive any training goes on at Boro training ground. Perhaps the footage evidence will show players missing the goal and falling over.

Having checked in on this thread every other hour yesterday, I've given it a rest today until now and see common sense is taking control. We will probably be given a fine. but anything more than a few hundred thousand will be a gross injustice for what is a minor infringement of the rules.

Watching the horse racing on TV yesterday, I seen Gibson was keen to speak to the commentary team. He can't stop himself, can he? The Sunday Times article today puts this story in perspectice. It's a farcical almost comedic story that's been taken far too seriously for it's own good...and it's had absolutely no impact on the result of the matches.

[die Mannyschaft]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

By Tuesday whatever that means.

Its a very strange statement not to set a date and just have this open ended announcement.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

2 minutes ago, CanadaSaint said:

Those are citable reasons for them missing out. Your turn. Produce one citable example of how the alleged spying caused them to lose. Not some wild and unprovable assumption.

The whole point is that it is very easy to say oh it had no impact on the result and of course it probably had no effect. Unfortunately our analyst was caught bang to rights filming their training and breaking the rules. You cannot just say yeah yeah bit it made no difference lets just crack on.

[die Mannyschaft]

5 minutes ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

Having checked in on this thread every other hour yesterday, I've given it a rest today until now and see common sense is taking control. We will probably be given a fine. but anything more than a few hundred thousand will be a gross injustice for what is a minor infringement of the rules.

Watching the horse racing on TV yesterday, I seen Gibson was keen to speak to the commentary team. He can't stop himself, can he? The Sunday Times article today puts this story in perspectice. It's a farcical almost comedic story that's been taken far too seriously for it's own good...and it's had absolutely no impact on the result of the matches.

It will be interesting to see how EFL or PL after the decision will deal with any outside impacts on game results. Incorrect VAR decisions, ineligible players playing in Cup wing games or European qualifiers, over spending etc. If we get something over the top then that's going to set the media frenzy again.

[Whitey Grandad]

5 minutes ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

The whole point is that it is very easy to say oh it had no impact on the result and of course it probably had no effect. Unfortunately our analyst was caught bang to rights filming their training and breaking the rules. You cannot just say yeah yeah bit it made no difference lets just crack on.

The regulation just penalises the act of observing another team's training (within 72 hours). There is no mention of any impact, effect or otherwise.

"our analyst  was caught bang to rights" 

Oh dear. There are two things wrong with that statement.

Think like a lawyer

Edited yesterday at 22:20 by Whitey Grandad

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I reckon a two point deduction in the Premier League or a six point deduction in the Championship might just about be fair. Anything more is disproportionate to the offence committed

[CanadaSaint]

2 minutes ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

The whole point is that it is very easy to say oh it had no impact on the result and of course it probably had no effect. Unfortunately our analyst was caught bang to rights filming their training and breaking the rules. You cannot just say yeah yeah bit it made no difference lets just crack on.

When you said “Think like a lawyer” I assumed you were referring to Boro’s supposed financial loss, for which they will doubtless pursue compensation. That’s separate to the disciplinary issue, in which they are not involved, and my argument is that they can’t prove any.

[MB]

Apparently hearing is done and we will hear tomorrow. Could be bollocks though. Hope this helps. 

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, MB said:

Apparently hearing is done and we will hear tomorrow. Could be bollocks though. Hope this helps. 

Surely the person who told you that gave an indication about how it has gone. 

[MB]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Surely the person who told you that gave an indication about how it has gone. 

Tonda is in the shit mainly, stuff coming out recently about him potentially getting a lenghy ban I don’t think is that far off the mark.
 

As I said though could be bollocks, stuff I have been told recently I’ve taken with a pinch of Salt

Edited yesterday at 22:42 by MB

[CylonKing]

12 minutes ago, MB said:

Tonda is in the shit mainly, stuff coming out recently about him potentially getting a lenghy ban I don’t think is that far off the mark.

A lengthy ban from what though? Managing Saints? Don't think the EFL can tell the club who to employ. The touchline? So what? If it is Tondas orders, think it more likely he would be fired by the club. EFL will only be interested in punishment for the club...if any of it is true (not proven guilty yet).

Think someone is telling you porkies! 

[DrSuess1979]

A touchline ban isnt so far fetched, could the club fire him in an effort to distance them self's from the bad publicity ? who knows 

Depends on if this is a one off 

[CanadaSaint]

It would probably be a straight suspension, not just a touchline ban.

But I’m sure the club would have prepared for that outcome. It might start with an injunction seeking a delay in the ban until after Saturday, on the grounds that the removal of Tonda so soon before the final places Saints at an extreme disadvantage. Far more so than an intern with a cell phone spying illegally on a training session.

[Dark Munster]

1 hour ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

I reckon a two point deduction in the Premier League or a six point deduction in the Championship might just about be fair. Anything more is disproportionate to the offence committed

Sigh. So you think an intern with an iPhone watching a Boro training session less than 72 hours before a match is comparable to what Leicester did?

Jesus wept.

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

I feel too many people are panicking over this! We don't know what is going to be decided and it is far from certain that we will be found guilty of anything, so let's all chill and wait and see what will happen!

I remain hopeful that we will not be found guilty for several reasons:

• I am hoping that it will be shown that he doesn't work for Saints
• I am hoping that it will be shown that Saints did not ask him to spy
• I am hoping that it will be shown that he didn't watch first team training - if he only entered the first little bit of the training pitches he may only have seen the academy training not the first team. He will have had to get to the far end of the training pitches to see the first team training!
• I am hoping there is no evidence that he spied for Saints when he did work for us. Hopefully his presence at other clubs was for legitimate purposes.

Beyond all of this I am also hoping that it will be shown that he was at Rockliffe by invite from MFC to him as an employee of Aston Villa and that it turns out to be a big ruse by MFC to entrap Southampton FC. I hope it is they (MFC) who will end up getting fined for bringing the game into disrepute!

[BARCELONASAINT]

39 minutes ago, SaintJackoInHurworth said:

I feel too many people are panicking over this! We don't know what is going to be decided and it is far from certain that we will be found guilty of anything, so let's all chill and wait and see what will happen!

I remain hopeful that we will not be found guilty for several reasons:

• I am hoping that it will be shown that he doesn't work for Saints
• I am hoping that it will be shown that Saints did not ask him to spy
• I am hoping that it will be shown that he didn't watch first team training - if he only entered the first little bit of the training pitches he may only have seen the academy training not the first team. He will have had to get to the far end of the training pitches to see the first team training!
• I am hoping there is no evidence that he spied for Saints when he did work for us. Hopefully his presence at other clubs was for legitimate purposes.

Beyond all of this I am also hoping that it will be shown that he was at Rockliffe by invite from MFC to him as an employee of Aston Villa and that it turns out to be a big ruse by MFC to entrap Southampton FC. I hope it is they (MFC) who will end up getting fined for bringing the game into disrepute!

you know what they say.......its the hope that kills you!

[Farmer Saint]

6 hours ago, MB said:

Tonda is in the shit mainly, stuff coming out recently about him potentially getting a lenghy ban I don’t think is that far off the mark.
 

As I said though could be bollocks, stuff I have been told recently I’ve taken with a pinch of Salt

A link has to be shown between Salt and Tonda for that to be true. Have Salt and/or Tonda been questioned as part of this? 

[Toussaint]

At the end of this process can we have a Saintsweb tribunal. Every poster who has made something up, repeated something as fact that is speculation or just generally added fuel to the fire, will be fined and suffer a ban? 
 

or at the very least have a laughing emoji added to every serious thing they say for evermore?

Edited 14 hours ago by Toussaint

[SW11_Saint]

2 hours ago, SaintJackoInHurworth said:

I feel too many people are panicking over this! We don't know what is going to be decided and it is far from certain that we will be found guilty of anything, so let's all chill and wait and see what will happen!

I remain hopeful that we will not be found guilty for several reasons:

• I am hoping that it will be shown that he doesn't work for Saints
• I am hoping that it will be shown that Saints did not ask him to spy
• I am hoping that it will be shown that he didn't watch first team training - if he only entered the first little bit of the training pitches he may only have seen the academy training not the first team. He will have had to get to the far end of the training pitches to see the first team training!
• I am hoping there is no evidence that he spied for Saints when he did work for us. Hopefully his presence at other clubs was for legitimate purposes.

Beyond all of this I am also hoping that it will be shown that he was at Rockliffe by invite from MFC to him as an employee of Aston Villa and that it turns out to be a big ruse by MFC to entrap Southampton FC. I hope it is they (MFC) who will end up getting fined for bringing the game into disrepute!

I think you’d best brace yourself for some significant disappointment…

[RedArmy]

2 hours ago, SaintJackoInHurworth said:

 

Beyond all of this I am also hoping that it will be shown that he was at Rockliffe by invite from MFC to him as an employee of Aston Villa 

You are mental. 
 

 

FFS 

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Morning Everybody.

If the Echo had anyone with the finger on the pulse today's headline would be

...A CITY HOLDS IT BREATH

I think the announcement will come today and although i have no inside info I think you can start planning for Saturday.

[SW11_Saint]

8 hours ago, CanadaSaint said:

When you said “Think like a lawyer” I assumed you were referring to Boro’s supposed financial loss, for which they will doubtless pursue compensation. That’s separate to the disciplinary issue, in which they are not involved, and my argument is that they can’t prove any.

They would need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this (spying) action directly resulted in their failure to progress over two matches and 215 minutes. Bottom line, they can’t. 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

At the end of this process can we have a Saintsweb tribunal. Every poster who has made something up, repeated something as fact that is speculation or just generally added fuel to the fire, will be fined and suffer a ban? 
 

or at the very least hats laughing emoji added to every serious thing they say for evermore?

Some posters get that already. 

2 minutes ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

Morning Everybody.

If the Echo had anyone with the finger on the pulse today's headline would be

...A CITY HOLDS IT BREATH

I think the announcement will come today and although i have no inside info I think you can start planning for Saturday.

Is this true though? 

[AlexLaw76]

7 hours ago, MB said:

Tonda is in the shit mainly, stuff coming out recently about him potentially getting a lenghy ban I don’t think is that far off the mark.
 

As I said though could be bollocks, stuff I have been told recently I’ve taken with a pinch of Salt

A few journos made the point that Tonda might face a ban. Boro lot are outwardly convinced this is more than a random turning up on his own 

[St Louis]

Just now, SW11_Saint said:

They would need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this (spying) action directly resulted in their failure to progress over two matches and 215 minutes. Bottom line, they can’t. 

No, they don’t. 

They have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that we were attempting to cheat (on that occasion and potentially more).

I think we all know there’s truth in it, just not the severity (and how much it’s been exaggerated hopefully by the sensationalist media).

So we just await what they think is fair punishment for that.

[Sarnia Cherie]

2 minutes ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

Morning Everybody.

If the Echo had anyone with the finger on the pulse today's headline would be

...A CITY HOLDS IT BREATH

I think the announcement will come today and although i have no inside info I think you can start planning for Saturday.

Giving our play-off final place to Middlesborough would be overkill. The punishment will depend on Saturday's result. Lose and we may get a fine and points deduction for next season, win and it's just a fine. After the inquiry we should all know exactly how this whole mess happened and who was involved. 

[Saint_clark]

9 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Of course it's relevant. If I get a 30 year sentence for driving sober with a clean record but 10 mph over the limit and no accident, my solicitor would point out to the judge someone who got the same sentence for manslaughter. 

Not a fan of these analogies but I'll play along...those offences carry pre-defined sentencing guidelines. Our breach of the rules does not. 

[Zorba]

The anticipation.. 😬

[DrSuess1979]

2 hours ago, BARCELONASAINT said:

you know what they say.......its the hope that kills you!

It’s the club’s motto 😇

[Toadhall Saint]

8 hours ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Its a very strange statement not to set a date and just have this open ended announcement.

How is it open ended? By Tuesday hence erm by Tuesday.

[obelisk]

I think I'd rather get this over and done with today rather than having to go through more wild speculation.

[Pamplemousse]

If the next ticket windows proceed as normal then hopefully that's a positive sign.

[rallyboy]

 

Just to clarify, Boro are demanding the biggest financial punishment ever imposed in the history of world sport...

So I believe we're going to Wembley this week, anything else would be insane.

[Toadhall Saint]

8 hours ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

The whole point is that it is very easy to say oh it had no impact on the result and of course it probably had no effect. Unfortunately our analyst was caught bang to rights filming their training and breaking the rules. You cannot just say yeah yeah bit it made no difference lets just crack on.

Show or tell me where it made a provable difference.

[Toadhall Saint]

8 hours ago, MB said:

Tonda is in the shit mainly, stuff coming out recently about him potentially getting a lenghy ban I don’t think is that far off the mark.
 

As I said though could be bollocks, stuff I have been told recently I’ve taken with a pinch of Salt

Tonda being in the shit was a report on how the FA (not EFL) might view it - that would happen after the disciplinary process has happened.

[Lord Duckhunter]

14 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

They would need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this (spying) action directly resulted in their failure to progress over two matches and 215 minutes. Bottom line, they can’t. 

 

10 minutes ago, St Louis said:

No, they don’t. 

They have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that we were attempting to cheat (on that occasion and potentially more).

 

It’s not a criminal case, reasonable doubt won’t come into it. Balance of probabilities will be the measure. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Tonda being in the shit was a report on how the FA (not EFL) might view it - that would happen after the disciplinary process has happened.

Indeed that's my thinking. Southampton FC vs efl isn't Tonda vs efl. I don't think they'll be giving Tonda direct bans following this case unless we admit it all and pin it on him or we sack him ourselves. 

Edited 16 hours ago by hypochondriac

[Mattio]

I have a feeling we’ll have the outcome by the end of today. Whatever it is hopefully we can start to talk about football again. 

[West end Saints]

1 hour ago, St Louis said:

No, they don’t. 

They have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that we were attempting to cheat (on that occasion and potentially more).

I think we all know there’s truth in it, just not the severity (and how much it’s been exaggerated hopefully by the sensationalist media).

So we just await what they think is fair punishment for that.

No they don't, the burden of proof in discipline and civil matters is the balance of probability.

 

interesting that  the game going ahead if a common view here. I really struggle to put my mind around the other way but genuinely feel I wouldn't be outraged - irritated maybe, expecting some punishment etc.

However on their forums, or course like all (here!)  there are extreme views but by far the consensus seems to be relaxed and unable to see a way we are allowed to play.

Can't help feeling I am being too biased in belittling this so  am now pessimistic ( although I have my game ticket, I can't say I am currently excited not have a looked into transport)

Edited 15 hours ago by West end Saints

[Sheaf Saint]

10 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

It’s not a criminal case, reasonable doubt won’t come into it. Balance of probabilities will be the measure. 

OK, on the balance of probabilities, would Boro have likely won the tie if Spygate hadn't happened? 

Given the relative form of both teams in the run-in, the fact that we secured the home second leg advantage for the semi final, and that we were strong favourites with the bookies, you would have to say no.