The Spygate Saga - 6 Week ban suspended for Eckert

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

It also makes it much more complicated for FA  to give City a soft punishment. 

It’s the PL who will punish them

[Football Special]

25 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Twats at the FA seeking three months. Quite a few in here purporting to be itk have ruined their reputations.

Not just the ITK ones but some absolute bull-shitters who bathed in the catastrophising panick amongst each other "we all know he's definitely going to be banned" "obviously, we all know that" 

None of them had a bloody clue 

Anyway I'm sure some are disappointed but its great news and sets us up nicely for Sunday 

[St Louis]

10 minutes ago, maysie said:

So much redacted in the full PDF from FA. Hurting my small brain trying to make sense of it.

That's where ChatGPT comes in useful 😁

The FA wanted a substantially tougher punishment, and Eckert’s lawyers successfully argued for a much lighter outcome. But he wasn’t cleared: he admitted all three charges. The panel’s favourable view of his evidence and remorse was central, alongside the argument that an immediate ban would further punish Saints and its supporters.
 

Stage	Punishment
FA’s proposed starting point	At least nine months banned, before reductions
FA’s requested final punishment	At least three months banned from all football activity, plus a fine
Panel’s starting point	16-week ban and £75,000 fine
After mitigation	Ban reduced to nine weeks
After credit for admitting the charges	Ban reduced to six weeks, fine reduced to £28,000
Final outcome	Six-week ban fully suspended until 30 June 2028, £28,000 fine and reprimands

So he serves no immediate ban. The suspended ban can be activated if he commits another rules breach involving observing another club’s training or using information from such observation. It isn’t triggered by just any unrelated misconduct.

 

His representation was Paul Harris KC and Natalie Nguyen, instructed by Centrefield LLP. Their key successes were:

• The panel accepted that he didn’t know the observations breached the rules or were considered morally wrong, based partly on his previous experience in Germany and Italy. That reduced his culpability; it didn’t excuse the breaches.
• It rejected the FA’s attempt to hold him personally responsible for the pressure junior staff felt.
• It rejected the suggestion that these incidents proved a systematic, organised spying operation.
• It accepted substantial mitigation, particularly his genuine remorse.
• Crucially, it suspended the ban because removing Saints’ head coach would effectively impose another punishment on the club, supporters and stakeholders, after the play-off expulsion and four-point deduction.

 

The interesting snippets

• A striking difference between panels: the earlier EFL proceedings were unimpressed with aspects of his evidence. This panel found him exceptionally impressive, particularly when giving evidence in person. His credibility plainly mattered.
• The FA called no live witnesses. Eckert was the only person to give live evidence, although the panel had extensive written evidence and earlier transcripts. Where accounts conflicted, that helped his lawyers challenge allegations based on what others had been told.
• Staff really did feel pressure. The panel accepted that, including fears linked to a previous analyst’s dismissal. It simply found insufficient evidence to attribute that pressure personally to Eckert.
• The Middlesbrough preparation meeting lasted around eight hours. He said the request about Hackney took only minutes within it.
• The earlier appeal ruling said the Ipswich footage allowed Saints to predict the exact starting XI. This panel made clear that whether information was useful didn’t reduce the seriousness of the offences.
• Saints disclosed the Oxford and Ipswich incidents themselves during the investigation prompted by Middlesbrough.
• The “he’ll lose his job” argument was fairly firmly rebuffed. The panel said the owner’s public comments were ambiguous and the club hadn’t supplied definitive evidence that it would dismiss him.

Edited 2 hours ago by St Louis

[VectisSaint]

3 hours ago, egg said:

I've only skimmed it, but it's pretty staggering how differently the EFL and FA panels assessed Tonda. 

Para 127..."Mindful of the findings below, we nonetheless found Mr Eckert to be a particularly impressive witness. That another Commission, on another day, were unimpressed with some of his evidence is a matter we have considered, but it does not alter our impression of him as a very impressive witness in the evidence he gave 
to us, both in writing but particularly during the hearing".

A degree of vindication. 

Agreed. Underlying the document is a feeling that the FA  consider the EFL to have wildly overstepped the mark and that their commission was somewhat amateurish. Dragon's statement seems to have the same view.

I said all along that the FA would be very interested in the matter of bullying/coersion. If they had found any evidence of this they would have been serious aggravating factors for the sanctions. That they didn't find any evidence largely enabled them to give out a fairly minimal sanction. It was clearly bad form of the EFL to make this a matter of concern with no substantive evidence (and indeed to issue reprimands against SFC specifically for this). I won't say told you so.

Edited 4 minutes ago by VectisSaint
I meant consider not insider

[VectisSaint]

41 minutes ago, musesaint said:

Apologies if this question has been posted elsewhere but does this impact Tonda if we end up in the Playoffs? As we all know from the saga he and Saints have already been put through, tge Championship League and the Playoffs are apparently separate competitions. In other words does the ban become effective when the league season ends???

No the ban ends end of June 27/28 (which is the FA definition of end of season). Besides we will be in the PL by then so the playoffs would be irrelevant.

[trousers]

20 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

I believe it is these 3?

O'Dowd used to be Head of Football Administration at Leeds United... Her time there pre-dated Bielsa's tenure by several years, but might have come into her thinking...

#tenouslink

[Suhari]

Fuck me I bet everyone around the club, and in particular TE are feeling 10 feet tall right now.

Really hope we can build from this and put together another amazing unbeaten run.

Let's go and win the fucking league chaps.

Edited 2 hours ago by Suhari

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Piss take. 

The club got kicked out of the playoffs and a four point deduction because of his actions. The fans missed out on a day at Wembley and possible promotion because of this cheating twat, and all he gets is a £28k fine (the equivalent of asking most of us to pay £28) and a suspended sentence. 

The game is fucked. 

[Strangely Brown]

On 27th November any thoughts on a playlist for the game; 

My offering is INXS “Bitter Tears” but I am sure there will be better ones outhere😉

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, MB said:

my last post for a while. Over and out folks 

Haven’t we suffered enough, the repercussions of spygate keep coming. Another  blow for us long suffering supporters…

[SNSUN]

Brilliant news. Off to the Boro forums...

[Wade Garrett]

28 minutes ago, Paul Chuckle said:

Sky Sports News reporter just said he'd spoken to a number of managers in the EFL who felt exclusion from the Playoffs was a harsh punishment. I thought Neil Harris said all 71 managers in the EFL wanted Tonda banned? 

Neil Harris should stick to putting his arm up Orville’s arsehole.

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

Tonda was the only witness who actually gave evidence in person, and he was cross-examined by the FA's barrister. The FA called no live witnesses. It relied on written statements from the earlier EFL case, mainly from the junior analysts and staff.

That made a big difference. Where Tonda's version clashed with those written statements (for example, who picked who went to Oxford, or whether anyone objected to him directly), the panel mostly sided with Tonda. Their reasoning was that they'd heard him answer questions under pressure, while they couldn't question the other people at all. They were careful to say this wasn't calling the staff liars, just that untested written evidence carries less weight.

And because Tonda had already admitted all three charges, the panel's main job wasn't deciding guilty or not guilty. It was deciding how bad it was and what the punishment should be.

One caveat: The ruling says either side can challenge it, so if the FA thinks it was too soft, they could try to get an actual ban imposed.

[sockeye]

The squad surely have renewed confidence with this news. Time to tear the rest of the league to shreds

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

Haven’t we suffered enough, the repercussions of spygate keep coming. Another  blow for us long suffering supporters…

The only blow is that the cheating twat still has a job and seems to have got off lighter than anyone else. 

I honestly can't understand how the fans can think that it's acceptable that he's still at the club. He let us all down massively and yet people think he's some kind of hero. 

[bpsaint]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Feck me, we've just had the best possible result on this, and the focus is on MB. Daft cretins, get a grip. 

There’s been lot of emotion involved in this spygate saga, and MB claiming to be ITK posting shit and whipping up a frenzy about Tonda being banned creates a whole lot of anxiety about the short term and long term future of this team. It’s completely justified he’s getting called out for chatting bollocks.

[whelk]

1 minute ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

The only blow is that the cheating twat still has a job and seems to have got off lighter than anyone else. 

I honestly can't understand how the fans can think that it's acceptable that he's still at the club. He let us all down massively and yet people think he's some kind of hero. 

Just fuck off you pathetic attention seeking twat. 

[Totton Saint]

let us all move on now and put it all behind us please!!

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Feck me, we've just had the best possible result on this, and the focus is on MB. Daft cretins, get a grip. 

It's on both tbf. Let's not forget you need to have a word with whoever your source was giving you duff information about long bans

[BARCELONASAINT]

7 minutes ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

Piss take. 

The club got kicked out of the playoffs and a four point deduction because of his actions. The fans missed out on a day at Wembley and possible promotion because of this cheating twat, and all he gets is a £28k fine (the equivalent of asking most of us to pay £28) and a suspended sentence. 

The game is fucked. 

you alright dear? need your medication?

[Saint-Reece]

4 minutes ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

The only blow is that the cheating twat still has a job and seems to have got off lighter than anyone else. 

I honestly can't understand how the fans can think that it's acceptable that he's still at the club. He let us all down massively and yet people think he's some kind of hero. 

Fuck off bellend 😆

[Totton Saint]

1 minute ago, Totton Saint said:

let us all move on now and put it all behind us please!!

Let he who isn without sin throw the first stone

[skintsaint]

4 minutes ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

The only blow is that the cheating twat still has a job and seems to have got off lighter than anyone else. 

I honestly can't understand how the fans can think that it's acceptable that he's still at the club. He let us all down massively and yet people think he's some kind of hero. 

[Scully]

Big result, well played by the Saints lawyers to get this with most of the EFL clubs baying for blood

[Harry_SFC]

1 minute ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

The only blow is that the cheating twat still has a job and seems to have got off lighter than anyone else. 

I honestly can't understand how the fans can think that it's acceptable that he's still at the club. He let us all down massively and yet people think he's some kind of hero. 

Has Tonda shagged your Mrs or something?

I think everyone was a bit pissed off for various reasons, including with Tonda for what happened. 

However, sacking him or wanting him to be punished further would be clear self sabotage. Why would anyone want that?

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 minute ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

I honestly can't understand how the fans can think that it's acceptable that he's still at the club. He let us all down massively and yet people think he's some kind of hero. 

I certainly don’t think he’s a hero. He let himself and the club down massively, and it cost us a fantastic opportunity. That said, he’s a young man who made a mistake, that coupled with his performance in the role, means he’s being given the chance to make amends. The players seem to have forgiven him, why can’t you? 

[Saint NL]

I hope the tickets for the Boro game says "£40 admission price, with £15 of this ticket being used to pay Tondas fine" for away fans.

Edited 2 hours ago by Saint NL

[egg]

42 minutes ago, ant said:

Having skimmed the FA's written reasons, it appears Tonda played a blinder throughout proceedings - ably supported by competent legal counsel. 

Time to look forward rather than back, but it does make me wonder whether Paul Harris KC could've had the EFL on toast...

Possibly.

The Times, 6 November 2024: “… the word from within the walls of the Premier league’s [disciplinary] case against Manchester City is that the man doing much of the work for the team in blue is Paul Harris KC… this makes Harris their Rodri…”

 

[Miltonaggro]

[Jimmy_D]

Written reasons from a genuinely independent panel shows just how much of an utter farce the Boro influenced EFL panel was.

[egg]

30 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Not just the ITK ones but some absolute bull-shitters who bathed in the catastrophising panick amongst each other "we all know he's definitely going to be banned" "obviously, we all know that" 

None of them had a bloody clue 

Anyway I'm sure some are disappointed but its great news and sets us up nicely for Sunday 

I was told by someone I trusted that the club feared up to 2 years. Where that came from is anyone's guess given that the decision refers to a starting point of weeks. I don't doubt there have been idiots just making nonsense up, but duff info has been out there.

[Ted Bates Statue]

10 minutes ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

The only blow is that the cheating twat still has a job and seems to have got off lighter than anyone else. 

I honestly can't understand how the fans can think that it's acceptable that he's still at the club. He let us all down massively and yet people think he's some kind of hero. 

GTFO with your sanctimony and support Corinthian if you're so upset

[Stud mark of doom]

So to summarise the FA statement 

They were satisfied Tonda didn’t know about the rule and accepted this sort of thing was normal practice elsewhere, and noted that the 72 hour rule implied it was also acceptable earlier in EFL.
 

Basically it seems that all Tonda did was -

a) ask someone to check if Oxford were likely to play with a back 4 or a back 5, in a prep meeting 

B) not request anything for Ipswich, but be shown some recordings he should not have been 

c) ask that someone check if Hacket was fit 

And that warrants being thrown out of the play offs and 4 points! 

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

30 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

Agreed. Underlying the document is a feeling that the FA  insider the EFL to have wildly overstepped the mark and that their commission was somewhat amateurish.

Can't help but think Man City's transgressions and all the recent news surrounding their potential punishments has also come at a good time for us. Appreciate this was against an individual and not the club, but it puts things in to perspective - something the EFL failed to do. 

[31cc]

Has anyone checked on Henry Winter? Poor guy must be devastated.

[egg]

15 minutes ago, bpsaint said:

There’s been lot of emotion involved in this spygate saga, and MB claiming to be ITK posting shit and whipping up a frenzy about Tonda being banned creates a whole lot of anxiety about the short term and long term future of this team. It’s completely justified he’s getting called out for chatting bollocks.

It's a wee bit sad if your first reaction to a result like this is to dig out MB. 

[Osvaldorama]

Get in!!!!

[bpsaint]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

It's a wee bit sad if your first reaction to a result like this is to dig out MB. 

Was it anyone’s first reaction though?

[egg]

25 minutes ago, Golac's Cunning Stunts said:

Tonda was the only witness who actually gave evidence in person, and he was cross-examined by the FA's barrister. The FA called no live witnesses. It relied on written statements from the earlier EFL case, mainly from the junior analysts and staff.

That made a big difference. Where Tonda's version clashed with those written statements (for example, who picked who went to Oxford, or whether anyone objected to him directly), the panel mostly sided with Tonda. Their reasoning was that they'd heard him answer questions under pressure, while they couldn't question the other people at all. They were careful to say this wasn't calling the staff liars, just that untested written evidence carries less weight.

And because Tonda had already admitted all three charges, the panel's main job wasn't deciding guilty or not guilty. It was deciding how bad it was and what the punishment should be.

One caveat: The ruling says either side can challenge it, so if the FA thinks it was too soft, they could try to get an actual ban imposed.

Yep, and this highlights that it was absolutely mental that the club called the kid to give evidence before the EFL. 

[hypochondriac]

Just checking. Can the FA appeal the verdict?

[egg]

1 minute ago, bpsaint said:

Was it anyone’s first reaction though?

I'm not interested in debating it mate. It's all up there. Call me old fashioned, but I'd rather revel in the fact that our season can now get started properly rather than get all upset about MB. 

[egg]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Just checking. Can the FA appeal the verdict?

Oui. 

[davefizzy14]

This is fantastic news. We've got Tonda at the wheel 😊 loved Dragan's statement too. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

Oui. 

So not necessarily over then

[saintwbu]

Spare a thought for AlexLaw24 this evening

[Football Special]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

I was told by someone I trusted that the club feared up to 2 years. Where that came from is anyone's guess given that the decision refers to a starting point of weeks. I don't doubt there have been idiots just making nonsense up, but duff info has been out there.

Lol just admit you were clueless as the rest of us Egg and you were talking bullshit (even if your defence is you were rehashing other people's bullshit) 

[Saint Pete]

Thank goodness it's finally done and surprisingly a pretty sensible outcome from the FA, albeit has taken them a ludicrous amount of time to get there. Vindication also for the Dragan's decision to stick with Tonda, we have had a reasonable if not prefect start to the season given the distractions and now we can look forward again. 

Time to move on now, ensure that lessons have been learned and focus on what really matters starting at the weekend and then on to improving our poor away record. 

[egg]

Just now, Football Special said:

Lol just admit you were clueless as the rest of us Egg and you were talking bullshit (even if your defence is you were rehashing other people's bullshit) 

Ha!! The person who spoke to me is solid. His source was clearly a fuckwit. 

[lumuah]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Just checking. Can the FA appeal the verdict?

Can Middlesborough appeal it?

[coalman]

1 minute ago, lumuah said:

Can Middlesborough appeal it?

Middlesborough are never going to be appealing. Oh, wait you mean the decision....?