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Thread: Toby

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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrettIvo View Post
    This debate is tedious. Liverpool and Spurs are bigger clubs by any objective measure you care to use.
    More importantly, they have a bigger percentage of utter **** fans than we have as well.
    Not worth getting worked up over.

    As for Toby I'm hopeful he'll end up here permanently.
    OK. How about pie sales? http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...remier-4131517

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    Liverpool obviously could. Also I never said we were a bigger club than Spurs or Liverpool I don't no why thats even up for debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The9 View Post
    Money and trophies. If we can find a breed of footballer who absolutely doesn't care about maximising their income for the limited career they have, and values loyalty incredibly highly once he's signed for Saints but not beforehand, well that would be just super. If we get success it MIGHT persuade someone to stay. Failing that, vague hopes of players wanting to play regularly and that being something we can offer are as good as it gets. Even the kids we bring through want to leave because they know they're being underpaid by virtue of us having negotiated their first contract when they were nobody.

    Lets not delude ourselves that players at Europa League standard clubs give the remotest crap about the "recruitment process" the second after it has delivered them to (for instance) our club. Once they're here, that process just becomes the thing that replaces them. Why would they even want it to be good?

    Even when Rooney showed a vague interest a few years back and claimed Man U needed to invest in the squad it was only to give him a reason for potentially leaving a club that was in a Champions League Final near the time. Football is a meritocracy, the top players get the most money from the most wealthy clubs with very few exceptions. The best we can do is get ourselves into that discussion and try and make marginal gains year on year until Europe is as expected for us as it is the other 6 sides we shared the top 7 with last season.
    because it makes the first team and the players around them better than the average premier league club, and I'm sure they want to play with better players.

  4. #554

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint IQ View Post
    because it makes the first team and the players around them better than the average premier league club, and I'm sure they want to play with better players.
    the most reliable and controllable way to achieve that is to move to a team with better players.

    in toby's case, moving to tottenham would be making them better, while staying here would not improve us. since they finished above us, that could from a certain point of view make them a better bet.

  5. #555

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    Quote Originally Posted by iansums View Post
    Indeed, why do people get so pre-occupied by the perceived 'size' of a football club. My Mrs is forever telling me it's not important.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head...if you'll pardon the expression.

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    Can we lock this thread and start a new one that might actually be about Toby?

    I could understand it a little bit if Toby was also being linked to Spurs and/or Liverpool...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint IQ View Post
    But not really a better a team about the same if not worse, will they pay more than us with the new stadium and all these high earners all on the books at this current time? I doubt they could pay much more than us.
    They are a better team because CB Fry says that the empyrical evidence conclusively proves they are, because they finished above us. We were the better team than them, Liverpool and Man Utd for much of the season, based on that same empyrical evidence, but they trumped during the last few weeks of the season. Pochettino is also the better manager than Koeman based on this same empyrical evidence according to Fry. The table doesn't lie.

    PS. As far as I can see, nobody is saying that we are a bigger club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sotonist View Post
    the most reliable and controllable way to achieve that is to move to a team with better players.

    in toby's case, moving to tottenham would be making them better, while staying here would not improve us. since they finished above us, that could from a certain point of view make them a better bet.
    What is important to a player considering a move elsewhere isn't all to do with that in the case of us and Spurs. Just because they finished slightly above us last season doesn't mean they will again. Yes, he might improve their defence, which their puny goal difference is testament to, but how much better would they be signing Toby and losing Kane, for example? Toby doesn't have a crystal ball and if he is considering them, the fact that they fluked a narrow advantage over us because of Kane and a handful of late goals from Erikson won't play heavily on his mind. I very much doubt that he even feels that their chances of finishing above us this coming season are greater when he knows Koeman but not Pochettino and he must harbour doubts as to whether he might form as effective a partnership as he did with our defence, even though Clyne might not be there.

    But if he perceives them to be a step up, is attracted to the bright lights of London, will undoubtedly earn more, then they might be a draw for him. But he seems happy here and could probably do much better than spurs if he wanted to move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jez View Post
    Can we lock this thread and start a new one that might actually be about Toby?

    I could understand it a little bit if Toby was also being linked to Spurs and/or Liverpool...
    1000% this.

    I might understand it, had it not been done to death on several threads already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jez View Post
    I could understand it a little bit if Toby was also being linked to Spurs and/or Liverpool...
    So could I.

    A slight improvement (based on last year) in the Premier League

    A slight improvement in European football, which will be huge if we lose our double header this season, and LFC/THFC are more likely to qualify for EL than we are.

    A big improvement in wages.

    So, on footballing reasons alone it is quite close this season, but financially it is chalk and cheese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    is this what it has come to? Analysing the guesses from the likes of MLG?
    JWP's wages are way too low for a start, that kid's amaaaaaazing in FM15 (and totally overrated, just like all the England U21s always are).

    Tbf they have lots of different methods and sources for wage deals which aren't just unabomber shut-in stinky bedroom crusty tissue kids' guesswork. I just don't know what they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint IQ View Post
    because it makes the first team and the players around them better than the average premier league club, and I'm sure they want to play with better players.
    Which is why they sign for the top teams and not us.

  13. #563

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    If we sign Toby, Austin and two keepers this summer with only Clyne and Schneiderlin out it'll officially be the GOAT transfer window. Got a feeling £18mill would eat into any money for a striker though which should be priority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The9 View Post
    JWP's wages are way too low for a start.
    Really? How much do you think he is on then?

    Quote Originally Posted by The9 View Post
    that kid's amaaaaaazing in FM15 (and totally overrated)
    His CA makes him the 15th best Saints player in the current FM15 database. 18th if you include Osvaldo, Ramirez and Boruc.

    Is that unreasonable?
    Last edited by Matthew Le God; 22-06-2015 at 02:03 PM.

  15. #565

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    So, any news on Toby?

  16. #566

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-Clarke View Post
    So, any news on Toby?
    In a nutshell, the weekends news that Atletico have sold some players (including a central defender) means they must be confident their transfer ban won't come to fruition and that increases our chances of signing Alderweireld, as does the news that suggests he wants to sign for us.

    I feel more positive but am still doubtful.

  17. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S-Clarke View Post
    So, any news on Toby?
    Don't try & take the recent discussion off topic

    Get the feeling this Toby thing is going to run & run. Feels like Atletico are doing to Toby what Paul Ince does with Tom Ince every window.

  18. #568

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    From SkyBet

    "Tottenham have been backed from 5/1 into even money to sign Toby Alderweireld from Atletico Madrid. After strengthening their defence with Kieran Trippier, the London club look to be closing in on another target. Southampton are second in the betting at 5/1."

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    Quote Originally Posted by teacher View Post
    From SkyBet

    "Tottenham have been backed from 5/1 into even money to sign Toby Alderweireld from Atletico Madrid. After strengthening their defence with Kieran Trippier, the London club look to be closing in on another target. Southampton are second in the betting at 5/1."
    Betting companies aren't really worth listening to in terms of transfers, just means Spurs fans have seen the rumours and lumped on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Appy View Post
    Betting companies aren't really worth listening to in terms of transfers, just means Spurs fans have seen the rumours and lumped on.
    seems that way. only worth listening to if they suspend the betting

  21. #571

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    Quote Originally Posted by Appy View Post
    Betting companies aren't really worth listening to in terms of transfers, just means Spurs fans have seen the rumours and lumped on.
    Thats true, you only have to look at Morgan's odds on SkyBet. Nailed on to go to Arsenal, then nailed on to go to United, they only react to where the money goes like in horse racing.

  22. Default

    Mirror saying we are going to offer £18 million for him. - http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...ng-18m-5923265

    I'd say based on last year and at 26 soon to move into peak years as a defender so could get even better its worth it.

    After last year AM were never going to let him go for £6 million.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beatlesaint View Post
    Thats true, you only have to look at Morgan's odds on SkyBet. Nailed on to go to Arsenal, then nailed on to go to United, they only react to where the money goes like in horse racing.
    Whilst Sky themselves are never shy to propagate or even amplify the wildest rumours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tajjuk View Post
    Mirror saying we are going to offer £18 million for him. - http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...ng-18m-5923265

    I'd say based on last year and at 26 soon to move into peak years as a defender so could get even better its worth it.

    After last year AM were never going to let him go for £6 million.
    It's worth the investment, not just because he's quality, but he's already part of our team and already has a partnership. It's a no brainer for anything up to 20 mill in my opinion.

  25. #575

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    The bookies are as clueless as to what's going on as most other people, hence the constantly shifting odds as soon as someone has a tenner on in these player markets

    Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

  26. #576

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    I definitely want to sign him, but does anyone else worry slightly about his injury proneness? He picked up a few last season and losing your best centre back for key games can be season-defining.

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    Toby's worth the investment, not just because he's quality, but because he's so damn versatile too.

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    Toby's just total class, I just hope that we pay whatever we need to pay to get his services (18 million rumoured offer). He is so versatile too. He clearly wants to stay and play for RK. Hopefully Les Reed can get this deal done soon. COYR

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSAINT View Post
    Toby's worth the investment, not just because he's quality, but because he's so damn versatile too.
    Exactly this. A great CB but also very useful in DCM and RB. I wouldn't complain if he cost 15-20m.

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    Question out of curiosity - If we do a deal, would he have to go through a medical? Perhaps to ensure he hasn't contracted Monkeypox whilst on holiday?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSAINT View Post
    Toby's worth the investment, not just because he's quality, but because he's so damn versatile too.
    Well, he's cover, but we lose so much from moving him from CB that I'd never actually want to use him for anything else - maybe push forward late on if we need a goal but that's about it. He's not all that great at RB and he's not a patch on Schneiderlin or Wanyama at DM. He is, however, a bloody tremendous CB who is competent in those other positions if absolutely necessary. Hopefully our business this summer will make those kind of fudges less prevalent in the squad, because they all cost us points, even if it is probably the most efficient way to put together a squad.

    I still can't believe we mostly got away with the GK/CF gambles last season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint_Abroad View Post
    Question out of curiosity - If we do a deal, would he have to go through a medical? Perhaps to ensure he hasn't contracted Monkeypox whilst on holiday?
    He already has a multi-year contract with Saints drawn up as part of last year's loan-to-buy deal because of the option clause. I should think that would still be valid even if they end up renegotiating the transfer fee.

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    It is a valid point about his injuries. To be fair to him he didn't have a proper break over last summer playing CL final and World Cup or a proper pre-season. The prem is a step up in terms of physicality.

    Still, if he does go to the spuds I am quite sure Poch will be snapping his muscles with his double fitness sessions.

  34. #584

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    I hope we sign him. But if we don't and Spurs or Liverpool do, I hope he turns out to be Lovren 2.0.

  35. #585

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    They are a better team because CB Fry says that the empyrical evidence conclusively proves they are, because they finished above us. We were the better team than them, Liverpool and Man Utd for much of the season, based on that same empyrical evidence, but they trumped during the last few weeks of the season. Pochettino is also the better manager than Koeman based on this same empyrical evidence according to Fry. The table doesn't lie.

    PS. As far as I can see, nobody is saying that we are a bigger club.
    You seem to have a problem with how league football works.

    On this I have offered no comment about our manager versus any other manager but carry on extrapolating whatever you like. It's only making you look dumb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The9 View Post
    Well, he's cover, but we lose so much from moving him from CB that I'd never actually want to use him for anything else - maybe push forward late on if we need a goal but that's about it. He's not all that great at RB and he's not a patch on Schneiderlin or Wanyama at DM. He is, however, a bloody tremendous CB who is competent in those other positions if absolutely necessary. Hopefully our business this summer will make those kind of fudges less prevalent in the squad, because they all cost us points, even if it is probably the most efficient way to put together a squad.

    I still can't believe we mostly got away with the GK/CF gambles last season.
    Pretty much this, when he's fit he has to play at CB even if we have other players out. When he played DM a few times towards the end of last season we looked a lot more shaky at the back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    You seem to have a problem with how league football works.

    On this I have offered no comment about our manager versus any other manager but carry on extrapolating whatever you like. It's only making you look dumb.
    Never mind that, what has coal combustion got to do with football ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    You seem to have a problem with how league football works.

    On this I have offered no comment about our manager versus any other manager but carry on extrapolating whatever you like. It's only making you look dumb.
    You seem to have a problem in accepting that other posters can disagree with your opinion, as usual. It makes you look arrogant. Others have expressed the opinion that we had a better team than Spurs last season, so presumably you are also looking down your nose at them too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You seem to have a problem in accepting that other posters can disagree with your opinion, as usual. It makes you look arrogant. Others have expressed the opinion that we had a better team than Spurs last season, so presumably you are also looking down your nose at them too.
    it is just a weird, rose tinted opinion.
    I doubt you would accept swansea had a better team than us last season. which is kid of the same sort of the thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    it is just a weird, rose tinted opinion.
    I doubt you would accept swansea had a better team than us last season. which is kid of the same sort of the thing
    It is not exactly the same thing. Goal difference is a real thing. While teams with better goal differences finish behind teams with lesser goal differences regularly, mostly they don't. Given the way the Spurs won many of their games, it is not unreasonable to view them as more lucky than good relative to us, Liverpool, and Swansea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redslo View Post
    It is not exactly the same thing. Goal difference is a real thing. While teams with better goal differences finish behind teams with lesser goal differences regularly, mostly they don't. Given the way the Spurs won many of their games, it is not unreasonable to view them as more lucky than good relative to us, Liverpool, and Swansea.
    all teams have luck.
    I mean, we had what 4 own goals scored for us at home to sunderland? we had numerous penalty shouts given in our favour when we should have conceded one.
    goal difference is great. Final league placing is what matters and they finished 2 places above us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    all teams have luck.
    I mean, we had what 4 own goals scored for us at home to sunderland? we had numerous penalty shouts given in our favour when we should have conceded one.
    goal difference is great. Final league placing is what matters and they finished 2 places above us.
    That's all true. But we also had a lot of shots hitting the woodwork and several games we dominated, but did not win. Final league standing is what matters, but it is not always an accurate reflection of the quality of the team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    it is just a weird, rose tinted opinion.
    I doubt you would accept swansea had a better team than us last season. which is kid of the same sort of the thing
    How is it the same sort of thing? Somebody already commented on that earlier and expressed surprise that you would bring that up as an argument. I'm not going to state that because we finished above them that we must have the better team, because although league position is indicative of the quality of a team, it is not a conclusive measure for the reasons I have given. I just believe that player for player, we had a better team than Swansea did. On the other hand, I am happy to offer the opinion that Swansea arguably had a team which was at least as good as the Spurs team. As has been pointed out already, Spurs' position in the table was over-reliant on one player rather than a team effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You seem to have a problem in accepting that other posters can disagree with your opinion, as usual. It makes you look arrogant. Others have expressed the opinion that we had a better team than Spurs last season, so presumably you are also looking down your nose at them too.
    Only on this forum can people get self righteously offended by someone pointing out that another football team finished above us in the league.

    Really hate to break it to you, but they did. They really, really did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    Only on this forum can people get self righteously offended by someone pointing out that another football team finished above us in the league.

    Really hate to break it to you, but they did. They really, really did.
    Are you trying to tell us that we didn't win the league last season?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    Only on this forum can people get self righteously offended by someone pointing out that another football team finished above us in the league.

    Really hate to break it to you, but they did. They really, really did.
    I expressed no opinion on whether I was offended or not that Spurs finished above us in the league, merely that I disagreed with you that they were the better team, but carry on extrapolating whatever you like. It's only making you look dumb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    Only on this forum can people get self righteously offended by someone pointing out that another football team finished above us in the league.

    Really hate to break it to you, but they did. They really, really did.
    Yes. yes!! But we're more of a seaside town than they'll ever be!

  48. #598

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    I expressed no opinion on whether I was offended or not that Spurs finished above us in the league, merely that I disagreed with you that they were the better team, but carry on extrapolating whatever you like. It's only making you look dumb.
    Your grizzling about people saying Spurs finished above us in the league as "looking down your nose at other fans" is you being offended. To be clear: it's not looking down on anyone. Newsflash: they did finish above us in the league.

    And extrapolation, eh? Here's yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Pochettino is also the better manager than Koeman based on this same empyrical evidence according to Fry. The table doesn't lie.
    Now, I'll give you every single post I have ever made on this forum. Do try and find a single one that says anything like your extrapolation. It's usually at this point you run like hell from discussions with me, because you eventually get exposed for simply making sh it up, like now.

    So I'm not expecting a reply.

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    I think everyone needs to calm down lol. If you had watched Spurs on Bt sport or Sky last year you would of remembered how ridiculously lucky they were, scrapping wins in the last minute by 1 goal margins getting other players sent off unjustly and having many penaltys against them denied (as did we)

    Basically if Toby is level headed which I think he is, IMO he will join us over Spurs

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    Your grizzling about people saying Spurs finished above us in the league as "looking down your nose at other fans" is you being offended. To be clear: it's not looking down on anyone. Newsflash: they did finish above us in the league.

    And extrapolation, eh? Here's yours.

    Now, I'll give you every single post I have ever made on this forum. Do try and find a single one that says anything like your extrapolation. It's usually at this point you run like hell from discussions with me, because you eventually get exposed for simply making sh it up, like now.

    So I'm not expecting a reply.

    I have already stated my case. It is that we had a better team than Spurs last season, even though they finished above us. Try and twist everything like you normally do if it amuses you, or rack your brains, such as they are, to defend your position that a higher league position necessarily equates always to a better team. I don't see you debating that, just as usual taking your normal supercilious position that because you say it, it must be fact. Nice of you to spare the time to respond to me but a pity that you have ignored everybody else who has expressed similar views, like Redslo for example.

    And just to be clear, I am not offended by anything, not even your inane ramblings. After all, it is only a forum of opinions. I accept that you don't like mine and that I don't accept yours, nothing to get all worked up about, is it?

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