Norwich 1-1 Saints - Match Thread

[Oldandtired]

After having watched every home match this season live and a few of the streams for the away games what has started to concern me is the amount of space given to opposing teams on their right, our left. I don't think it is necessarily the fault of the players picked to play at left back for instance but they do seem to give the opposing teams an enormous amount of space to attack on that side.

[Wade Garrett]

30 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Because we haven't played Norwich, away from home, earlier in the season?

Hasn’t just done it against Norwich though.

[Lord Duckhunter]

8 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Hasn’t just done it against Norwich though.

Good point. How did we get on in the other games he did it?

Edited January 1 by Lord Duckhunter

[Osvaldorama]

The good thing for me is we continued to mix things up and look threatening the whole game. 

Sometimes, especially in this league, you just can’t break down a low block and the oppo gets lucky. Norwich we’re so deep that it was pretty embarrassing to be honest - they didn’t even try and play.

Concludes a fantastic second half to the year and everyone at the club deserves credit. 
We are now in touching distance of the autos which is all we can ask for. 
Haply new year all 

[Wade Garrett]

6 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Good point. How did we get on in the other games he did it?

That’s a fair point, but I’ve said before, we are a better balanced team with KWP at right-back.

[Chez]

21 minutes ago, Mr X said:

But time and time again we let them attack on the break it was obvious we were going to get punished at some point especially with the addition of Sargent 

They only got out of their own half about twice in the first 45 minutes The only real danger was when KWP went to sleep for a freekick and they could have scored. In general, we are always a little vulnerable on the break, but I have to say in the first half of this game I couldn't have felt more calm. We were completely dominant and they offered almost no threat at all. They had three good attacks towards the end of the second half, scoring one and missing one (I think Baz saved it).  However, "time after time" is a massive exaggeration IMO. 

Put yourself in a Norwich fans' shoes and you'd be saying like "Saints were all over us, waltzed through our midfield and behind our fullbacks, created so many dangerous attacks, got a lot of dangerous crosses in..."

I thought we looked pretty good and were a threat throughout. Disappointed not to win, but we have played much worse than today and won.

Edited January 1 by Chez

[Chez]

4 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

That’s a fair point, but I’ve said before, we are a better balanced team with KWP at right-back.

we are also a team that often gets caught short badly on the break due to fullbacks leaving huge gaps and CBs not being able to fill in. Playing a Cb at fullback, much like Newcastle have done with Burn, and that guy not pushing on provides that little extra solidity/insurance. Norwich dropped very deep and played on the break. RM perhaps predicted it and felt having that three guys defensive defenders (with Manning still pushing on) might be a good idea. 

[Galway saint]

today was frustrating but we look a very good team at the moment and that’s without a recognised number 9 to lead the line 

[Dark Munster]

51 minutes ago, derry said:

The back four were all involved in conceding the goal for a variety of different reasons. It started with Stephens he had an easy out ball to THB who was in acres of space to his right with KWP free outside him yet turned towards the congested area and passed to Manning who then caused the problem by pinging the ball at Fraser who tried a blind pass that hit a Norwich player between two Saints. Armstrong had the chance to take one for the team but didn't. Stephens THB and KWP were ball watching and THB let Sargent rotate off him whilst Stepens was ball watching KWP was the only one to react as he attempted to pick up Sargent but made no challenge. Sargent rolled the ball through KWP's legs and in off the post. Bazunu was nearly on the penalty spot and couldn't get down quickly enough. I felt he shouldn't have been so far out of his goal.

In summary, a lot of blame to go around then!

At the end of the day it was a good finish, so I can't complain too much.

[adrian lord]

I’m going to shoehorn a shoehorn into this post.

[notnowcato]

2 hours ago, saintstowin said:

I've been told off by LD. A saintsweb achievement for me and so early into 2024! 

Not a telling of more of a putting you straight. 
LD does write a lot of pony but he’s spot on with JS. 

[um pahars]

1 hour ago, Harry_SFC said:

Well if that isn't the case then I'm concerned that our manager thinks Stephens is the answer at right back.

Big fan of Martin and the recent run is impressive, but I think he got it wrong on Saturday putting Stephens on the right hand side of the defence when he came on.

And think he got it wrong today. The defence have been settled and doing a decent job, so would not have messed around with it.

Would have taken a point before the game and given Ipswich only drew im certainly not grumpy. 

[trousers]

15 minutes ago, notnowcato said:

Not a telling of more of a putting you straight.

*Off 

[derry]

1 hour ago, Oldandtired said:

After having watched every home match this season live and a few of the streams for the away games what has started to concern me is the amount of space given to opposing teams on their right, our left. I don't think it is necessarily the fault of the players picked to play at left back for instance but they do seem to give the opposing teams an enormous amount of space to attack on that side.

It also causes another problem as the central defenders are pulled across leaving room down our right as we try to plug the gaps, Norwich's goal today. Manning bypassed and KWP ending up as the last defender. Personally I think Manning is careless, his ball to Fraser was almost impossible to do anything. I think he is an appalling defender and allowed far too much freedom by the manager. We need to bring in a proper left back now.

[Tommy Mulgrew]

1 hour ago, Oldandtired said:

After having watched every home match this season live and a few of the streams for the away games what has started to concern me is the amount of space given to opposing teams on their right, our left. I don't think it is necessarily the fault of the players picked to play at left back for instance but they do seem to give the opposing teams an enormous amount of space to attack on that side.

IIRC, the only others to have played LB are Bree and KWP.  Bree gave space only occasionally, KWP a bit more often because he ventured further forward a lot.  Manning does it every game he plays.  I do not like the risk calculation RM has obviously made; it seems to me that only the opposing team’s failure to score repeatedly after having had the benefit of such a large amount of frequent open space delivered on a plate to them has stopped us dropping plenty more points than we have done.  Better teams will give us a deserved thrashing if we go on like this.  Fortunately, not many such teams play in the Championship.  But it could be a real problem for us in our remaining fixtures this season.  I prefer not to call out individual players but I shall be happy if Manning does not play again.

Certainly, if we gain promotion, we shall have to correct our glaring deficiency at LB.  I note that Walsall scored six away from home today against Grimsby, who I seem to recall beat us comfortably the last time we played them.  Fingers crossed for this coming Saturday.

🙂

[SaintTex]

31 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

At the end of the day it was a good finish, so I can't complain too much.

pretty much this.. tip the cap. A lot had to go right for them to get that in.

Other than that i thought we managed the risk of a Norwich breakaway pretty well. We knew that would be their gameplan by the first minute on.

all in all.. 4 matches in 10 days and a 10 point return is pretty good.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, adrian lord said:

I’m going to shoehorn a shoehorn into this post.

You heel 🙂

[eurosaint]

Norwich were dirty and the ref lacked balls to punish them 🥲

[woodsaint1]

1 hour ago, um pahars said:

Big fan of Martin and the recent run is impressive, but I think he got it wrong on Saturday putting Stephens on the right hand side of the defence when he came on.

And think he got it wrong today. The defence have been settled and doing a decent job, so would not have messed around with it.

Would have taken a point before the game and given Ipswich only drew im certainly not grumpy. 

We've had 4 games in 9 days so changes were always likely, even in defence. Playing Stephens and making changes to the backline wasnt what cost us today, it was at the other end.

Would prefer KWP or Bree at RB obviously, but Jack is a solid option. Hopefully we add a RW in the window which means that KWP returns to his default position however

[JRM]

2 hours ago, Chez said:

They only got out of their own half about twice in the first 45 minutes The only real danger was when KWP went to sleep for a freekick and they could have scored. In general, we are always a little vulnerable on the break, but I have to say in the first half of this game I couldn't have felt more calm. We were completely dominant and they offered almost no threat at all. They had three good attacks towards the end of the second half, scoring one and missing one (I think Baz saved it).  However, "time after time" is a massive exaggeration IMO. 

Put yourself in a Norwich fans' shoes and you'd be saying like "Saints were all over us, waltzed through our midfield and behind our fullbacks, created so many dangerous attacks, got a lot of dangerous crosses in..."

I thought we looked pretty good and were a threat throughout. Disappointed not to win, but we have played much worse than today and won.

Agree, Norwich - what a horrible side to watch, dull anti-football, flat 5 across the back with a line of 4 deep in front of them, purely set up to try to frustrate us and create nothing themselves other than the occasional break. Also left studs in for quite a few late challenges which they got away with. 

Would have taken a point before the game but having taken the lead very disappointing not to win. 

Hope the injuries aren't too bad, couple of weeks break now for most of the first team. 

[Paulwantsapint81]

With all the negativity around today who would take replicating all our previous results possibly with better score lines   in return fixtures giving a total on 90 points?

[um pahars]

29 minutes ago, woodsaint1 said:

We've had 4 games in 9 days so changes were always likely, even in defence. Playing Stephens and making changes to the backline wasnt what cost us today, it was at the other end.

Would prefer KWP or Bree at RB obviously, but Jack is a solid option. Hopefully we add a RW in the window which means that KWP returns to his default position however

Fair point, but if you are going to make changes then I would have preferred a like for like. 

[Saint Gifford]

RM will probably already thinking of different ways of approaching teams for the second half of the season. ( I would really like to think so).

Teams are working us out on this long unbeaten run of ours. 
 

Opposition parking the bus flooding there half of the pitch will only get worse as we get to the end of the campaign. 
 

If he is the manager we all hope he can be,  now is the time for a plan a, b, c and d. As well as doing the things that have made us a formidable side currently. 

 

[davefizzy14]

Hope Edozie is all ok. That should have been a straight red for their right back for a horrible tackle. 

[trousers]

25 minutes ago, davefizzy14 said:

Hope Edozie is all ok. That should have been a straight red for their right back for a horrible tackle. 

Yep, agree; it was clearly intentional.

[cambsaint]

From the matches I've seen on TV we are playing against at least 7 defenders packed into the last quarter of the pitch

Martin has to counter these stifling tactics how without changing a very successful run I'm not sure.

Perhaps we should try going for the jugular immediately and try to score very early which effectively negates the point of the opposition just sitting back. Even Man City are feeling the loss of de Bruyne to find the telling pass. of course we can never hope for anyone so good, but we seem to lack midfield creativity except perhaps S Armstrong.Personally Id start him and take him off at half time rather than the reverse

[rooney]

Our midfielders did not have enough quality to get the ball to the strikers regularly and when they did the strikers lacked enough quality to put it away. Angus Gunn had a very easy  afternoon and Norwich are not a very good side. With 12 corners, we still never looked like scoring. It is the same every game.

[david in sweden]

We really should stop complaining about those "lost points " despite the long run undefeated, but the question remains

Where did they go wrong? ..when we dominated games so much yet still dropped points (mostly away b.t.w.) 

These stats. give some interesting answers...

                                % possession          shots           result

Rotherham      (h)          80                   22-4             1-1 

Preston           (a)          72                    13-12           2-2

Huddersfield  (a)          78                    16-10            1-1

Coventry        (a)          72                    12-11            1-1

Norwich         (a)          75                    21 -7             1-1

AVERAGES                    75,5                     84-44                      =     Given the shots/goal stats.  one might call it  10 points lost

Possession does deny the opposition the ball, but we really need to convert more of the chances that come our way.

YES - there were individual errors in some games, and a couple others where the opposition goalie played very well, and

one or two more where the goal should have been 6 inches wider, but the fact remains that without a genuine "second striker"

(on a par with 13 goal Adam Armstrong), we do miss a real attacker who can convert those " missed " chances.

 

Without Ross Stewart's availability, and the likelihood of Ché Adams departing soon, we really do need a proven goalscorer 

to ensure we can overtake Ipswich AND stay in the top two, and thus avoid the pressure of the " play-offs" . 

 

 

 

[david in sweden]

13 hours ago, eurosaint said:

Norwich were dirty and the ref lacked balls to punish them 🥲

Interesting note; when watching the pre-match banter in the tunnel, I saw the ref. was laughing and joking 

with Norwich captain Grant Handley, whilst blatantly ignoring Jack Stephens, who was standing beside him. 

 

One wonders if he was a " neutral ",  or if the FA could only find a well-known local man in the New Year break? 

Certainly some of his decisions were scarcely " neutral" . Without VAR, he still had to dish out 4 yellows to " the Canaries " 

(none against Saints), whilst the "attack" on Edozie would have been a direct red card if watched again. (as we saw on TV).

I always come back to the same argument  (as in this case) that foul was cruel and deliberate and just might put (Edozie) out of 

a number of games whilst " the yellow card " ..is no punishment at all ...when " the offender " will be back in their team next game.

 

Even without VAR there should be a case for "retrospective punishment" . You can't expect to have wrong goals re-instated, but 

just because a foul is missed by the referee doesn't mean it didn't happen and the evidence is obviously clear on TV screens.

I noted have that some media outlets interview referees for their opinions on "doubtful decisions " ( VAR, penalties etc,)  so why not ?

We are at looking at potential  "career-ending " incidents that would considered to be " criminal offences " if committed in the streets.

 

Many of you will surely say this is not feasible, but just a few years back I saw Jamie Vardy go back and stamp on Van Dijk's ankle

(whilst the action was in the other half of the field, and the referee was unsighted).   Nothing accidental about that at all.

VvD was out for 6 months with the resulting injury,  and It didn't change my opinion of Jamie Vardy's character either. 

Edited January 2 by david in sweden

[Dman]

2 hours ago, david in sweden said:

Interesting note; when watching the pre-match banter in the tunnel, I saw the ref. was laughing and joking 

with Norwich captain Grant Handley, whilst blatantly ignoring Jack Stephens, who was standing beside him. 

 

One wonders if he was a " neutral ",  or if the FA could only find a well-known local man in the New Year break? 

 

Call me crazy, but i'm pretty confident championship referee's don't get to pick and choose the games they offciate 

[Dman]

12 hours ago, trousers said:

Yep, agree; it was clearly intentional.

nah I disagree with this. 

It should have been a Red and with the benefit of VAR it would have been, it wasn't intentional though. Edozie was just too quick for him. 

Nasty tackle, should have been a Red, but he didn't mean it - imo.  

[Dman]

My view on the game... 

Naturally dissapointing not to get the result after being so dominant and Ipswich dropping points. 

However, tricky place to go and on balance, I think a draw is a decent result away from home. 

We badly need more creativity in the side to turn these dominant performances into wins. Its what Leicester do so well and why they're going to win the leauge with a record total. 

[trousers]

55 minutes ago, Dman said:

nah I disagree with this. 

It should have been a Red and with the benefit of VAR it would have been, it wasn't intentional though. Edozie was just too quick for him. 

Nasty tackle, should have been a Red, but he didn't mean it - imo.  

He may not have meant the initial contact but, to me, it's clear that he intentionally leaves his foot planted into Edozie's ankle longer than would naturally be the case. I'm therefore convinced the conscious actions of the player during the course of the incident made the injury worse than it might otherwise have been. Happy to disagree of course

[Galway saint]

50 minutes ago, Dman said:

My view on the game... 

Naturally dissapointing not to get the result after being so dominant and Ipswich dropping points. 

However, tricky place to go and on balance, I think a draw is a decent result away from home. 

We badly need more creativity in the side to turn these dominant performances into wins. Its what Leicester do so well and why they're going to win the leauge with a record total. 

Not sure it’s about creativity more a dominant centre centre to lead the line and create a bit of hovoc in and around the box and get onto crosses ( that are now increasing) . we created lots of openings yesterday. not sure of the stats but after adam armstrong out next highest scorer must be adams with 6 or so.

seems to be more of an achilles heel away from home but you will always be vulnerable being only one up as no matter how good the defence you will always concede some goals 

[Osvaldorama]

6 minutes ago, Galway saint said:

Not sure it’s about creativity more a dominant centre centre to lead the line and create a bit of hovoc in and around the box and get onto crosses ( that are now increasing) . we created lots of openings yesterday. not sure of the stats but after adam armstrong out next highest scorer must be adams with 6 or so.

seems to be more of an achilles heel away from home but you will always be vulnerable being only one up as no matter how good the defence you will always concede some goals 

This season has made me appreciate Sir Rickie even more (if that’s even possible). 
 

His strength, touch, creativity and vision on top of his deadly finishing made the championship seem easy. What a player he was. 

Edited January 2 by Osvaldorama

[Charlie Wayman]

We have to win away matches if we are serious about automatic promotion. Results like this are unacceptable. 

[trousers]

8 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

We have to win away matches if we are serious about automatic promotion. Results like this are unacceptable. 

Ever thought of following your own advice...?

 

[OldNick]

Ive read back quite a way ad have not see Bazunus position for their goal questioned at all.

He was basically on the penalty spot!! Why? Had he bee on his 6 yard line, where he should be he may have saved it, as it wasnt a shot at pace.

Just dont know why he is there

[S-Clarke]

50 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

We have to win away matches if we are serious about automatic promotion. Results like this are unacceptable. 

You're on your other persona today then. Hard to keep up with you.

Who will you be tomorrow?

[iansums]

Disapointing draw after having the lead but when you look at this it makes you realise what a good Xmas period its been

[sfc4prem]

3 minutes ago, iansums said:

Disapointing draw after having the lead but when you look at this it makes you realise what a good Xmas period its been

Absolutely superb.

 

Taken in isolation the result against Norwich was frustrating, perhaps. When put into context, though, we expect the odd draw here and there. It happens. Even Leicester have lost or drawn a game or two.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, OldNick said:

Ive read back quite a way ad have not see Bazunus position for their goal questioned at all.

He was basically on the penalty spot!! Why? Had he bee on his 6 yard line, where he should be he may have saved it, as it wasnt a shot at pace.

Just dont know why he is there

Meh.  I think we have to accept that he is shit at making saves.  Even the ones he does get behind his crisp packet hands flop around and the ball goes in.

But, he's good with his feet, mind.

[fanimal]

Don’t blame the goalie definitely the front 5 collectively needed to perform better 

[saintant]

4 hours ago, trousers said:

He may not have meant the initial contact but, to me, it's clear that he intentionally leaves his foot planted into Edozie's ankle longer than would naturally be the case. I'm therefore convinced the conscious actions of the player during the course of the incident made the injury worse than it might otherwise have been. Happy to disagree of course

Agree, he appeared to make sure he gave himself the best chance to get away with what was a horrendous tackle because he knew he couldn't cope with Edozie.  Took a measured risk that he'd just receive a yellow card and clearly it worked.

[david in sweden]

5 hours ago, Dman said:

Call me crazy, but i'm pretty confident championship referee's don't get to pick and choose the games they offciate 

.... you sound quite sane to me, but my meaning was that.... I wasn't suggesting that referees could choose games, but that

instead of selecting " neutral officials "... from Devon or Durham....and considering it was a public holiday ...in mid winter..

the FA's choice of ref.  may have been made based ....on purely geographical considerations. 

One of the Saints' Christmas games (Swansea)?  was refereed by Keith Stroud who is a well-known Hampshire man .

 

Back to my original comment.. When the TV screening began the camera was centered on the two teams waiting in the tunnel. 

The sequence I watched was  at least  one minute long, during which time the ref. was smiling and joking with Grant Handley

(the Norwich captain) which suggested to me they were already "well-acquainted" , and in fact Handley looked more than a  

little embarrassed that the ref's conversation was so one-sided during the entire time that they were standing there. 

 

Jack Stephens was standing at the ref's side  but was totally ignored - even upto the moment that the teams ran onto the pitch. 

Perhaps they were " long-standing pals " but I would have thought that common courtesy would dictate that the ref. greet both men,

and to his credit Jack Stephens kept a blank expression, but looked thoroughly pi**ed off at being so rudely ignored by the match official.

 

The fact that the ref. could only yellow-card the Norwich player for the dreadful foul on Edozie, and that he later ignored at least one good 

penalty shout from Saints.. might suggest that he wanted to ensure that the wheels were still attached to his car after the game was over.

 

Edited January 2 by david in sweden

[saintant]

3 hours ago, OldNick said:

Ive read back quite a way ad have not see Bazunus position for their goal questioned at all.

He was basically on the penalty spot!! Why? Had he bee on his 6 yard line, where he should be he may have saved it, as it wasnt a shot at pace.

Just dont know why he is there

Agree, it seemed an odd position and didn't give himself enough time to get down and make a save. Not an obvious howler but a more experienced keeper would probably give himself a better chance of keeping the ball out by being closer to his goal.

[Kingsland Codger]

38 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

.... you sound quite sane to me, but my meaning was that.... I wasn't suggesting that referees could choose games, but that

instead of selecting " neutral officials "... from Devon or Durham....and considering it was a public holiday ...in mid winter..

the FA's choice of ref.  may have been made based ....on purely geographical considerations. 

One of the Saints' Christmas games (Swansea)?  was refereed by Keith Stroud who is a well-known Hampshire man .

And the referee for the Plymouth match was from the Isle of Wight. However, aganst this, he officiated the game at Middlesborough on 23rd December.

 

 

 

[Galway saint]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

Agree, it seemed an odd position and didn't give himself enough time to get down and make a save. Not an obvious howler but a more experienced keeper would probably give himself a better chance of keeping the ball out by being closer to his goal.

i’m no defender of bazanu and he was in an odd position for a conventional keeper but as he’s effectively asked to play the sweeper role he will always be more advanced than he might like and he therefore can get caught in no mans land. see the goal against rotherham for another example. however you cannot him blame for that as it’s the role he’s asked to play 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, Galway saint said:

i’m no defender of bazanu and he was in an odd position for a conventional keeper but as he’s effectively asked to play the sweeper role he will always be more advanced than he might like and he therefore can get caught in no mans land. see the goal against rotherham for another example. however you cannot him blame for that as it’s the role he’s asked to play 

 

He shouldn't be in an "advanced" position if his defenders are on the 18yard line!

[saintant]

1 hour ago, Galway saint said:

i’m no defender of bazanu and he was in an odd position for a conventional keeper but as he’s effectively asked to play the sweeper role he will always be more advanced than he might like and he therefore can get caught in no mans land. see the goal against rotherham for another example. however you cannot him blame for that as it’s the role he’s asked to play 

 

I don't think the build up to the goal needed Baz to play his sweeping role - that's more for balls over the top where he starts from a high position. When play builds through the middle he should be working on his angles and, for me, he didn't quite get it right yesterday.