Watford 2-2 Saints - Match Thread

[trousers]

2 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

He's going go down in the ages as a GK who doesn't make howlers, but also doesn't really make any notable saves.

 

[Viking Saint]

2 hours ago, OttawaSaint said:

The Irakundu yellow looked like the sort of challenge that gets a VAR red in the EPL. Naturally he bagged the equalizer a few minutes later...

Agree. Felt he got away with that very lightly 

[SWLondon Saint]

Btw, did anyone else see Downs chase back on defense and take that yellow and think, 'Bloody hell, can we see some of that pace going forward please?!' Get him running in behind and he'll scare defenders.

[Midfield_General]

1 hour ago, SWLondon Saint said:

For everyone moaning about Bazunu, you could look at the goals we scored today - 1st one, keeper and defenders playing musical statues, 2nd one, keeper's side of the goal, always the likely option from so close, absolutely must be saved - or the goal Johansson gifted WBA to lose that game for Stoke...

Another way of looking at it is the absolute world-class save that Johansson made from THB against us. That was the difference between them getting a point and winning that game.

Johansson is a far-from-perfect Championship level keeper. But he won them that game and Bazunu doesn't make that save in a million, billion years. He just doesn't have the anticipation, the foot movement or the agility. 

Baz's save against Wrexham is the only time I can ever remember him winning a game for us and this will be his fourth season with us. 

Edited 15 hours ago by Midfield_General

[saintant]

2 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Even then I think he’d have been in the net with it. Sometimes the quality of what the opposition does is too good, albeit it happens slightly less at this level. Would have been a good idea to not concede yet another stupid free kick in the first place as well. Conceded far too many and deserved to concede from one.

But the first goal is pure Bazunu and really poor. Defence and midfield stood off, decent strike but should never be going in and at EFL level going around the post for a corner. Even at my other team, Torquay’s level, Be. Hamer would be very disappointed to concede the first as would Paul Wotton his manager.

But Paul doesn’t have untouchables at his club. 

 

This is certainly an issue. We concede far too many free kicks in every game. A lot of our challenges seem to be badly timed and ungainly making it easy for the ref to give free kicks against us. I get that we want to win the ball back or break up attacks but we have to be less wreckless when making tackles.

[saintant]

47 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

AA is another I wouldn't give a stuff about if he was sold before the deadline. Feel like I'm saying this about so many players.

In fact Fernandes and Ramsdale were the only two players I really had any positive feelings towards. The rest, couldn't care less. 

Agree, I think AA has run his course with us now and it would be better for him and the club if he was given a fresh start - maybe a loan although maybe a bit too late in the window.

[SWLondon Saint]

3 minutes ago, saintant said:

This is certainly an issue. We concede far too many free kicks in every game. A lot of our challenges seem to be badly timed and ungainly making it easy for the ref to give free kicks against us. I get that we want to win the ball back or break up attacks but we have to be less wreckless when making tackles.

Said it in another thread somewhere, but too many of our players seem to be in what I'd call the 'lazy attacker' mode, ie go in hard so you either win it or foul someone and don't have to bother fighting for position or running back round. Charles took a yellow today when he didn't need to dive in on the Australian lad, he should have hassled him running back and got goal side. You've got to put in those hard yards against the ball, which Jander has said he enjoys, so I guess a lot is riding on him being a success...

[Galway saint]

12 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

Another way of looking at it is the absolute world-class save that Johansson made from THB against us. That was the difference between them getting a point and winning that game.

Johansson is a far-from-perfect Championship level keeper. But he won them that game and Bazunu doesn't make that save in a million, billion years. He just doesn't have the anticipation, the foot movement or the agility. 

Baz's save against Wrexham is the only time I can ever remember him winning a game for us and this will be his fourth season with us. 

West Brom away 23/24 he made a good save and we won that game.

ultimately if the club want a keeper that is good with his feet, doesn’t make many absolute howlers but rarely makes any saves then they’ve got their man.
 

Personally I like my keeper to make saves and will forgive them the odd error as they will all make howlers even the best 

[skintsaint]

What were the afters about then?

 

https://youtube/oRRcGbIPYf0?si=5XPvL9nfEwlOw7qy

[benjii]

3 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

What were the afters about then?

 

https://youtube/oRRcGbIPYf0?si=5XPvL9nfEwlOw7qy

Their coach called Lallana a spade-faced rat boy.

[The Kraken]

2 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

What were the afters about then?

https://youtube/oRRcGbIPYf0?si=5XPvL9nfEwlOw7qy

I guess there were plenty of verbals during the game. Their manager got booked for waving an imaginary yellow to try and get our player booked, got booked himself for that. Maybe things just kicked on from then. Looked like Still wasn’t having a kiss and make up and handbags ensued.

[skintsaint]

Just now, benjii said:

Their coach called Lallana a spade-faced rat boy.

Maybe a Nivea based insult was involved somehow.

[Pamplemousse]

I thought the ref had a good game overall, he let a lot of challenges go. Best ref we've had so far this season but that wasn't difficult because the other 3 have been total shit.

[saintant]

4 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

What were the afters about then?

 

https://youtube/oRRcGbIPYf0?si=5XPvL9nfEwlOw7qy

First time I've seen the goals. Bazunu may or may not have been able to stop one or either but he seems to have a real problem with positioning. For the first he is too close to his near post and gives the striker a lot to shoot at. For the second he leaves a huge gap on one side of his goal and, unsurprisingly, the player goes for it - it was a great strike but Baz really invited him to put it where he did. One of a professional goalkeeper's basic requirements is excellent positional sense and I think Baz lacks this key attribute.

[Harry_SFC]

2 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

I thought the ref had a good game overall, he let a lot of challenges go. Best ref we've had so far this season but that wasn't difficult because the other 3 have been total shit.

They mentioned on the commentary that the referee today had played football to a decent standard.

Think that always helps. 

[Channons Windmill]

Interesting game - I watched from the side with one of the non-playing Watford squad so got an insight throughout from a pro.. Thought Watford were all over the place in the first half and our full-backs, Manning especially, had plenty of freedom to roam. We should really have had the job done in the first 45, it was only our weak finishing that let Watford off the hook. We then didn’t adapt the tactical changes Watford made at HT quick enough which was a little worrying. Thought we played well enough, we actually have quite a lot of quality, just lacked concentration at times giving the ball away too often and just not being ruthless enough.

 

 

[StrangelyBrown]

2 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

AA is another I wouldn't give a stuff about if he was sold before the deadline. Feel like I'm saying this about so many players.

In fact Fernandes and Ramsdale were the only two players I really had any positive feelings towards. The rest, couldn't care less. 

We really need to move on from the players who have been ever present through our demise - AA, Stephens, McCarthy - they've been here too long and don't offer much either. Moving on all three would give us space to address our three biggest problems: GK, Striker and leadership at the back

[VectisSaint]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

Their coach called Lallana a spade-faced rat boy.

But what was the insult? 😉

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

Another way of looking at it is the absolute world-class save that Johansson made from THB against us. That was the difference between them getting a point and winning that game.

Johansson is a far-from-perfect Championship level keeper. But he won them that game and Bazunu doesn't make that save in a million, billion years. He just doesn't have the anticipation, the foot movement or the agility. 

Baz's save against Wrexham is the only time I can ever remember him winning a game for us and this will be his fourth season with us. 

That was a dolly drop. The sort that Bazunu deals with comfortably. If Stephens hadn't been so close in he might now be our top scorer.

Edited 13 hours ago by Whitey Grandad

[Colinjb]

1 hour ago, benjii said:

Their coach called Lallana a spade-faced rat boy.

Fair comment really.

[SW11_Saint]

Seemed foolhardy to play Sesay in the U21s today. Surely you’d take him even if both Flynn & Shea were fit as backup? Could have done with another body defending in MF later in second half. 

[BarberSaint]

3 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Somebody got it at last.

[SW11_Saint]

4 hours ago, Dr Who? said:

Disappointing management from the dugout and on the pitch

Disappointing defending

Disappointing Goalkeeping

Disappointing Finishing from open play again. 

Disappointing 5 at the back. 

I think we still need at number 1, a real ball winner midfielder, hard man, as we are very lightweight still. Probably need a proper centre back and main striker. 

In other words we are still very short of a promotion ‘team’. We have brought in some more flair players, but we need to toughen up through the middle of the team, as our core is very weak and that is worrying. You should have these players in place to be successful. 

I fear we will be bullied into defeat in 2 weeks, unless we action these weak areas. 

I have done my coaching badge. You need a strong keeper, centre defender, central midfielder ball winner and centre forward who is going to bag you 15 goal upwards. We just like trying to fix things with fancy players. We have no excuses, we have the money and we need to fix these shortcoming now! 

when does the window close? 

Maybe give Spors a call On Monday morning and talk him through the issues and provide your list of who to buy before 7pm? Sounds like you’ve nailed it… 

[SW11_Saint]

3 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

Another way of looking at it is the absolute world-class save that Johansson made from THB against us. That was the difference between them getting a point and winning that game.

Johansson is a far-from-perfect Championship level keeper. But he won them that game and Bazunu doesn't make that save in a million, billion years. He just doesn't have the anticipation, the foot movement or the agility. 

Baz's save against Wrexham is the only time I can ever remember him winning a game for us and this will be his fourth season with us. 

Johansson lost them their game today by spilling it… 

Swings & roundabouts. 

Edited 12 hours ago by SW11_Saint
Typo

[Ex Lion Tamer]

2 hours ago, saintant said:

First time I've seen the goals. Bazunu may or may not have been able to stop one or either but he seems to have a real problem with positioning. For the first he is too close to his near post and gives the striker a lot to shoot at. For the second he leaves a huge gap on one side of his goal and, unsurprisingly, the player goes for it - it was a great strike but Baz really invited him to put it where he did. One of a professional goalkeeper's basic requirements is excellent positional sense and I think Baz lacks this key attribute.

The free kick was on the side that the GK would normally leave to the wall, so I'm not sure he should be expected to save it. However, it did seem like he should have got closer to it. It was almost like he misjudged the height. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

The free kick was on the side that the GK would normally leave to the wall, 

Exactly.

Sometimes you have to credit the free kick taker - How many of Prowsey's goals were gifted by GK errors ?

[Appy]

16 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

Johansson lost then their game today by spilling it… 

Swings & roundabouts. 

Yep, if Bazunu conceded the goal he conceded today this place would go mental. Johansson is good, but there’s a reason he went to Stoke and he’s still there. 

[austsaint]

7 hours ago, Midfield_General said:

I'm glad it's over just so I don't have to listen to Tessem anymore. 

He's like an over-excited Arnold Schwarzenegger if he'd just huffed a helium balloon and then had a big fat line of Claus's beak. Unbearable. 

I had to turn the sound down; Tessem’s high pitched blaring was doing my head in.  Wasn’t one of Blackmore’s best days either.

On the pitch, I thought Still should have changed things earlier.   Robinson not at the races today; lost the ball often and ran too far without looking for link up passes.   Matsuki improved the look of the midfield when he came on but the momentum had turned many minutes before.  Stunning free kick by Manning but there were worrying echoes with both he and Bazunu back to the worst days of 23/24.    Azaz looked short of a run; Archer faded out of the game in the second half and there were familiar errors from Stephens.   THB not at his best yet and while Wood was hard working, he lacks a bit of polish.    Uncomfortable game to watch, felt like a defeat.

[Mr X]

A seven point gap already we would have been somewhere up there had we not lost at least four/five points from games we should have won but that's life 

[Sunnyside Saint]

13 hours ago, obelisk said:

Plenty of us twats could see the huge target he'd left for any decent strike before it was taken. There was no we he'd ever get across to cover that side of the goal. Just needed a decent strike. Big error.

Agreed, I think is starting position was too far right. He invited the shot to his left but left himself too much to do to get across to it. It also looked to me that because of this he hard to hurl himself early which meant that he was already on the way down as the ball passed him. Perhaps if he'd had covered a couple of more steps to his left he could have made a better dive at the ball. Not saying he saves it but he certainly gives himself a better chance. It was a misjudgement from him.

[east-stand-nic]

13 hours ago, whelk said:

Probably played the game at a much higher level than majority on here - are you one of those dads that screams at your kids playing cos you haven’t got a clue and not ashamed to show it? 

a bit of an arrogant assumption. Just because you see it a different way, no need to make up stories about how you were a semi pro etc. And before you get angry at my factual comment again, remember you were one of those who crucified me for saying i am probably far more world traveled than most on here. But I am sure you will find a reason to explain how it is different when you say it lol. 

[whelk]

38 minutes ago, east-stand-nic said:

a bit of an arrogant assumption. Just because you see it a different way, no need to make up stories about how you were a semi pro etc. And before you get angry at my factual comment again, remember you were one of those who crucified me for saying i am probably far more world traveled than most on here. But I am sure you will find a reason to explain how it is different when you say it lol. 

It’s sweet that you are so fond of me Nic but don’t you think this obsession is getting a little strange?

[StrangelyBrown]

2 hours ago, Mr X said:

A seven point gap already we would have been somewhere up there had we not lost at least four/five points from games we should have won but that's life 

I don't think we'll be chasing Middlesbrough (or West Brom for that matter...) come the end of the season. The important points gap is between us and Leicester, which is only 4 points.

[macca155]

16 hours ago, O_Lord_Marian said:

Agenda re Bazunu? Do you really believe that or is it fans with eyes just calling things out as they see it.  

Censure accepted, agenda is the wrong word, perhaps people's view is simply accentuated by previous failings.

Absolutely nothing Baz could do with either of those goals. A world class keeper , maybe on a good day, gets to one of those but it would be a hell of a save. Baz isn't at that level neither is Ramsdale for that matter.

If he had saved it West Ham would buy him Monday 😂

In contrast THB had another average game, constantly pulled out of position, and there is hardly an eyebrow raised. Which is fair enough frankly because he needs to rediscover his game.

[AlexLaw76]

4 minutes ago, macca155 said:

Censure accepted, agenda is the wrong word, perhaps people's view is simply accentuated by previous failings.

Absolutely nothing Baz could do with either of those goals. A world class keeper , maybe on a good day, gets to one of those but it would be a hell of a save. Baz isn't at that level neither is Ramsdale for that matter.

If he had saved it West Ham would buy him Monday 😂

In contrast THB had another average game, constantly pulled out of position, and there is hardly an eyebrow raised. Which is fair enough frankly because he needs to rediscover his game.

THB has to cover left back due to the system, much like why Stephen’s steps into midfield, and we we make so many fouls as we are wide open all over midfield and defence

[macca155]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

THB has to cover left back due to the system, much like why Stephen’s steps into midfield, and we we make so many fouls as we are wide open all over midfield and defence

Totally agree, both constantly drifting out of position. Gifts too much space to the opposition. Partly the system, partly their lack of discipline.

Credit to Wood he commanded the middle pretty resolutely.

[Harry_SFC]

1 minute ago, macca155 said:

Totally agree, both constantly drifting out of position. Gifts too much space to the opposition. Partly the system, partly their lack of discipline.

Credit to Wood he commanded the middle pretty resolutely.

Stephens has always liked to go walkabout. His positional play is terrible. He tends to be the opposite of THB in the sense he's actually worse in a back 4, where as Taylor is better in a back 4. 

[Whitey Grandad]

10 minutes ago, macca155 said:

Censure accepted, agenda is the wrong word, perhaps people's view is simply accentuated by previous failings.

Absolutely nothing Baz could do with either of those goals. A world class keeper , maybe on a good day, gets to one of those but it would be a hell of a save. Baz isn't at that level neither is Ramsdale for that matter.

If he had saved it West Ham would buy him Monday 😂

In contrast THB had another average game, constantly pulled out of position, and there is hardly an eyebrow raised. Which is fair enough frankly because he needs to rediscover his game.

I watched the highlights with an open mind having read all the comments yesterday and I am surprised that anyone would think that their first goal was an easy save. A hard shot to the foot of the far post will beat all but the very best and we are a long way from attracting any of those. Some expectations are beyond realistic. 

[SWLondon Saint]

I think the way to look at the first goal is that about 4v things went wrong and Baz's save or non-save depending on your opinion is just one of them.

- No pressure on cross field ball at all.

- wtf is Manning doing, you can't just wait for fouls off the ball to be given, have to assume they won't be noticed in this league

- Huge gap on left side of mf / defence, too many sucked towards the ball?

- Baz's positioning for save / non save

It's still a great finish right inside the post and if Cam Archer had scored it we'd be saying what a great goal it was, not commenting about the keeper. My first thought when it went in was 'why is there so much space there and who's lying on the ground', not necessarily the save or lack of. While for Manning's goal my first thought is 'keeper's got to get that'.

I'm not a huge Baz fan, but the strategy is clear, just hope he's good enough till we get promoted and Rambo comes back. It's gonna be a long season if everyone's just complaining about Baz the whole time, he's not the only one at fault so far. If he lets a trickler in, then sure.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, Harry_SFC said:

Stephens has always liked to go walkabout. His positional play is terrible. He tends to be the opposite of THB in the sense he's actually worse in a back 4, where as Taylor is better in a back 4. 

Stephens has a knack for sensing danger. And then running away from it.

[hypochondriac]

The main question is why do we still concede so many goals? Is it how we are setup? Or personnel? It just seems whatever we do we seem incapable of keeping things tight and racking up clean sheets. I'm not sure we've ever done that tbh since fonte was here.

Edited 1 hour ago by hypochondriac

[Whitey Grandad]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The main question is why do we still concede so many goals? Is it how we are setup? Or personnel? It just seems whatever we do we seem incapable of keeping things tight and racking up clean sheets. I'm not sure we've ever done that tbh since fonte was here.

Both setup and personnel. We're too exposed through the middle and we leave our flanks wide open. We are too easy to play against. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Both setup and personnel. We're too exposed through the middle and we leave our flanks wide open. We are too easy to play against. 

That was our issue even two seasons ago tbh. I look at a team like Burnley in this league and wonder why we can't go multiple games without conceding or even just reducing the amount of times we let goals in. It's really frustrating because actually we play quite well some of the time. I agree with Still, we never put in a 96 minute performance, it's always moments of games where we perform.

[S-Clarke]

11 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

The main question is why do we still concede so many goals? Is it how we are setup? Or personnel? It just seems whatever we do we seem incapable of keeping things tight and racking up clean sheets. I'm not sure we've ever done that tbh since fonte was here.

We're still playing Bazunu, Manning and Stephens, so it's no surprise really. That trio means goals, goals, goals.

If we take yesterday in isolation, we had no midfield. It was Charles and no one. There was too much space on transition and we were just run at, which lead to us conceding free kicks.

I don't think we gave up too many chances in open play generally, it was just a couple of brain farts really which came on the back of us not having any transition cover. I still think some of our players are thick as shit though, which is why they often have those brain farts. A little bit of higher IQ in our group wouldn't go a miss.

Edited 1 hour ago by S-Clarke

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

We're still playing Bazunu, Manning and Stephens, so it's no surprise really. That trio means goals, goals, goals.

If we take yesterday in isolation, we had no midfield. It was Charles and no one. There was too much space on transition and we were just run at, which lead to us conceding free kicks.

I don't think we gave up too many chances in open play generally, it was just a couple of brain farts really which came on the back of us not having any transition cover. I still think some of our players are thick as shit though, which is why they often have those brain farts. A little bit of higher IQ in our group wouldn't go a miss.

Will this improve with the likes of fellows and the youngster at dm do we think? I know people don't want him but Romeu would be absolutely perfect.

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Will this improve with the likes of fellows and the youngster at dm do we think? I know people don't want him but Romeu would be absolutely perfect.

Frisky, we simply have to solidify the midfield

every game we are wide open there, meaning the back 3 are pulled all over the show 

Edited 1 hour ago by AlexLaw76

[S-Clarke]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Will this improve with the likes of fellows and the youngster at dm do we think? I know people don't want him but Romeu would be absolutely perfect.

If we go to a flat 4, with proper wingers, the full backs/wing backs won't need to be so advanced - so the protection on transition will be greater. Charles and Downes 'should' be enough to anchor this level, but in my eyes they're too samey and it makes us a bit slow in there - but we'll see.

At the end of the day we need to stop conceding as much ground as we do in the wide areas, as teams break on us too quickly at the moment. 

[AlexLaw76]

10 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

If we go to a flat 4, with proper wingers, the full backs/wing backs won't need to be so advanced - so the protection on transition will be greater. Charles and Downes 'should' be enough to anchor this level, but in my eyes they're too samey and it makes us a bit slow in there - but we'll see.

At the end of the day we need to stop conceding as much ground as we do in the wide areas, as teams break on us too quickly at the moment. 

We saw it again yesterday, Watford would win the ball and immediately hit us down our LB and RB areas, meaning Stephen’s and THB were contact pulled left and right between them. With only Charles in front of them, a better side than Watford would have seen us off, more so when they chopped to a back 4 and dominated midfield (funny old thing)

 

[sfc4prem]

44 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I watched the highlights with an open mind having read all the comments yesterday and I am surprised that anyone would think that their first goal was an easy save. A hard shot to the foot of the far post will beat all but the very best and we are a long way from attracting any of those. Some expectations are beyond realistic. 

That was an absolutely brilliant finish. Most keepers getting beaten with that. Agreed.

[beatlesaint]

2 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

That was an absolutely brilliant finish. Most keepers getting beaten with that. Agreed.

I watched the goals with an open mind as well and tbf I dont see many saving that free kick. I cant blame Bazunu for that at all.

Edited 40 minutes ago by beatlesaint