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Thread: VAR seems to be a mistake

  1. Default VAR seems to be a mistake

    Watching some of the World cup (for ladies) the VAR system seems to be just as bad as the ref on the day . Contentious results from VAR plus lots of no VAR action when it is needed .
    Leave technology to goal line action and leave ref to decide IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by East Kent Saint View Post
    Watching some of the World cup (for ladies) the VAR system seems to be just as bad as the ref on the day . Contentious results from VAR plus lots of no VAR action when it is needed .
    Leave technology to goal line action and leave ref to decide IMO.
    Referee's in the premier league are shyte.
    As for VAR, it is obviously going to take a while to get it right, but it is not going away.
    If players did not cheat like they try to do and/or if ref's were competent...No VAR required

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    Is it a Doris watching the VAR though? Probably not concentrating if Love Island or whatever is on the other channel.

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    My thoughts on the VAR are:

    1) it shouldn’t be used for subjective matters (should be for offsides, mistaken identity, was it in/out of the box, did the ball go out, check for contact with the arm on handballs etc.). The exception to this is off the ball incidents that the on field officials didn’t see (potential violent conduct at the other end of the pitch, for example)
    2) the decisions should be made by the VAR, not the ref pitchside
    3) I should be called in to do the big matches.

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    I can't wait till the big teams start getting the biased benefit from VAR decisions.

  6. #6

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    It’s the people using VAR making the decisions not VAR as that’s just the actual replaying of footage

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    I can't wait till the big teams start getting the biased benefit from VAR decisions.
    We still won’t get penalties at Old Trafford, that much is certain.......

  8. #8

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    Not a fan.
    Going to be a penalty field day for the big clubs most likely.

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    The problem is going to be attackers chipping the ball up , not to make a good cross , but to try and make contact with the defenders arm . Liverpool in the european final for example .
    Much work to be done to make VAR a success IMO

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baird of the land View Post
    Not a fan.
    Going to be a penalty field day for the big clubs most likely.
    Interesting, that’s what I think it currently is! Think there’s a chance that it could even pens out myself. Will be nonsense for a while no doubt but a good thing in time and when applied properly

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    Dinosaur


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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    I can't wait till the big teams start getting the biased benefit from VAR decisions.
    But you support a small team. Why would you want that?

  13. #13

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    Nothing wrong with VAR, just with some of the morons who currently use it. It's like blaming the Porsche manufacturers for a drunken teenager who crashes one at 180 mph.

  14. #14

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    Over here in the A-League the first couple of months it was a bit dodgy as everyone was working out the best way to use it

    Later on in the season it worked really well

    One thing to remember is we should never let perfection get in the way of better, so whilst var won’t get every decision right, we will have more correct decisions

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    There will be loads of penalties this season
    And i expect zero goals from corners as they will all get disallowed

  16. #16

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    Boufal and Djenepo will be under strict instructions to win as many pennos with their skills as possible. We will resign Lambert and Le Tiss to take them all. The league is ours.

  17. #17

    Default VAR seems to be a mistake

    VAR only works if you have football people involved. I mean proper football people like not Rio Ferdinand and Danny Murphy. Not some nerd that knows the rules or an ordinary (non-proper) football person. Must have played the game to CL level and must frequently say “if you start giving penalties for that you’re going to have 20 penalties a game” (a good thing as we like a goal or two.

    Only problem I see that is we may run out of proper football people

    Also think ticket prices should increase as we are getting entertained for longer. Player”s wages need to increase to also reflect they are having to work longer hours.

  18. Default

    Yes VAR could help get decisions right but it doesn't seem to at the moment . I still think the offside rule needs adjusting to take account of VAR , that way having a part of your body a few millimetres in front of the defender would not be offside . There have been some VAR offsides where a part of a players foot is the the reason given for offside . I want goals to be scored in open play not because of a VAR penalty decision that is debatable !!

  19. #19

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    It was supposed to be brought in for clear and obvious errors/oversights. Watford handball equaliser in Pellegrino's season. If it cancels sh!t like that out then great. A VAR official watching that in real time/replay picks it up immediately alerts ref. Quick conversation. Goal cancelled.

    It is being used to microscopically examine marginal offsides taking minutes to do so (England Holland; Us Derby) leaving a celebrating set of fans in limbo not knowing if they are about to be let down and an opposite set of fans with the opposite feeling. Its **** and it will ruin/already is ruining the game if its used like this. If you have to look at it more than once its not clear and obvious. Leave it, move on. Goal. On the flip side where it is clear and obvious (Gabbiadini in the final) it's CLEAR AND OBVIOUS therefore easily picked up and goal stands. Don't examine the evidence 20 fecking times playing it back and forth to conclude that the scorer's big toenail looked fractionally offside from one of the angles so no goal and let's restart the game with a ****ing free kick 5 minutes after the 'goal' was scored and forget the fact we've destroyed all rhythm, spontaneity
    and ultimately enjoyment of the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whelk View Post
    VAR only works if you have football people involved. I mean proper football people like not Rio Ferdinand and Danny Murphy. Not some nerd that knows the Laws or an ordinary (non-proper) football person. Must have played the game to CL level and must frequently say “if you start giving penalties for that you’re going to have 20 penalties a game” (a good thing as we like a goal or two.

    Only problem I see that is we may run out of proper football people

    Also think ticket prices should increase as we are getting entertained for longer. Player”s wages need to increase to also reflect they are having to work longer hours.
    Hth's

  21. #21

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    It's ****e. If you can't celebrate a goal in the stadium with compete abandon because you have to wait for VAR to rubber stamp it, then what's the point of attending live matches?

  22. #22

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    These are all very good points. I have never been a fan of it because it destroys the flow of the game. It should never be used for subjective decisions such as handball, except perhaps for incidents such as that ‘handball goal’ away at Watford.

    I don’t like the way that it distorts the decisions taken, or rather not taken, by the officials at the game. The assistant referees on the line are instructed to keep their flags down for offside and wait to see what happens in the belief that VAR will take a decision later. As East Kent Saint says above, the offside law is not suited to VAR. Without a gridiron pattern on the pitch the camera images are not accurate enough to judge whether or not a toe is offside for a fraction of a second.

    Slow motion replays should never be used for any penalty decisions because they give a false impression of the incident. There is also a lot more information that the referee sees such as where the players’ eyes are looking, what they might have said previously and sometimes the sounds that may occur.

    Whenever the pitch referee is advised to go and look at a replay he is then under pressure to change his decision because usually in such situations he would be overruling his bosses.

    I’m not a fan of it.

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    There's still a lot to be sorted out. It's still open to potential bias if, for example, a possible offside goal is allowed but neither the ref nor VAR officials decide to check it. Or the opposite where the run-up to a goal could be examined in minute detail to try to find a reason to disallow.

    I agree with the "clear and obvious" criterion. The VAR officials should instigate a check if they see something that looks obvious. The VAR decision should be notified to the ref: get rid of the ref checking a pitchside monitor. If the ref wants a check, make the question as in RU: goal or no goal? where he didn't see/doesn't know, or is there any reason that wasn't a goal? where the starting presumption is goal.

    But I would give each team, via captain or manager, one or two appeals per half, retained if upheld.

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  24. #24

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    I agree with Whitey. The headline which got most people supporting it was broadly “this will turn subjectivity into black and white facts”. But as folk can now see, that is not true. It simply moves subjectivity somewhere else, ie the bloke doing VAR. There are numerous situations where you think “why wasn’t that referred to VAR”.

    I agree with the comment re keeping it to factual things, to build on the goal line technology which has been good (and also does not rely on a delay with everyone hanging around). So ball out of play or mistaken identity perhaps. It’s awful when you are at the ground and everyone is stood around waiting and I suspect when many paying fans experience that first hand they will be less enthusiastic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chez View Post
    It's ****e. If you can't celebrate a goal in the stadium with compete abandon because you have to wait for VAR to rubber stamp it, then what's the point of attending live matches?
    I think you would know 99% of the time whether you can go nuts or whether there's a dubious foul in the build up. It's not perfect but it will cut out many of the ridiculous decisions we've seen recently. With VAR we'd have a League Cup trophy in our cabinet.

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    I technology is there to help get things right then use iot, but not in the way it's being used now.

    I'd have the same technology as they are currently using but implement it in the following ways.

    VAR can only ask ref to review if they see a) missed violent conduct or b) mistaken identity in red/yellow card.

    Ref not allowed to consult VAR (if he's not sure he can't give it) EXCEPT

    Each captain can ask ref to refer any goal, penalty, red card to VAR. Limit one appeal per half per side whether upheld or not. It's very rare that a team could claim more than 2 bad decisions in a match have cost them the game

    That way referrals are going to be limited in number. Added advantage of players no longer harassing a referee, they'll need to harass their own .
    captain as only he can ask the ref for the referral.

    If you concede a late equalizer in the second half and still have your referral the crowd just know it's going to be used. Emotion wise it'll be like giving away a late penalty, you assume the opposition will score it but there's always that hope. Could even enhance the drama whereas the current system seems to be destroying it.

  27. #27

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    VAR won't reduce the controversy, and in my opinion increases the drama. Looking forward to seeing it in action.

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    Football should learn the lessons from other sports, such as rugby and cricket; the presumption should be that the onfield decision was correct, and the result of the review entirely the remit of the video official. 1 'appeal' per half, per team, retained if upheld, and benefit of the doubt for offside given to the attacking side. A review of the handball rule is also needed, as based on the last few months I can see attackers practicing flicking the ball up at defenders' arms in anticipation of a VAR penalty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    With VAR we'd have a League Cup trophy in our cabinet.
    No we wouldn't, as it was against Man Utd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by East Kent Saint View Post
    Watching some of the World cup (for ladies) the VAR system seems to be just as bad as the ref on the day . Contentious results from VAR plus lots of no VAR action when it is needed .
    Leave technology to goal line action and leave ref to decide IMO.
    The rules are the issue, not VAR.

    Bracing myself for a season of people ****ing and moaning whilst not understanding where the issue actually lies...

  31. #31

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    The womens world cup officials are way too inexperienced at using it. The technologies great but they need to make it quicker. I'm not liking the linesmans intentionally not flagging even when it's clear as day offside. If they're unsure then the rules say give the attacker benefit of the doubt (and let VAR deny it if they're wrong) but otherwise flag up when it's obvious.

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    I love it. Can't wait for the carnage and drama.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimatt View Post
    The womens world cup officials are way too inexperienced at using it. The technologies great but they need to make it quicker. I'm not liking the linesmans intentionally not flagging even when it's clear as day offside. If they're unsure then the rules say give the attacker benefit of the doubt (and let VAR deny it if they're wrong) but otherwise flag up when it's obvious.
    FIFA issued guidance before last year's World Cup, that told linos to delay flagging so that VAR could make the decisions.
    https://www.theguardian.com/football...rluigi-collina

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    With VAR we'd have a League Cup trophy in our cabinet.
    That was a very good case for VAR, but according to that logic we would have got a draw after 90 minutes.

    Leaving aside the fact that if we’d been awarded that goal then the game would have followed a different course subsequently.

  35. Default

    I watch a fair amount of MLS and often games go on really long due to multiple VAR decisions. Not uncommon to see games reach 100 minutes. Could be a pain for those that have trains to catch etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad View Post
    That was a very good case for VAR, but according to that logic we would have got a draw after 90 minutes.

    Leaving aside the fact that if we’d been awarded that goal then the game would have followed a different course subsequently.
    I didn’t mean it quite that literally but we were certainly robbed of the opening goal in a game we went 2-0 down in.

    I think a few minutes here and there checking VAR is worth it for moments like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    I can't wait till the big teams start getting the biased benefit from VAR decisions.
    It will help them. Can think of so many time we or other smaller teams have beaten a top side, and there's usually a few moments of luck, a penalty not given etc.

    Think there'll be loads of pens the first month of the season anyway. It'll favour the attacking sides, not the defensive ones keeping it tight and trying to get away with pushing people around at corners all the time.

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    You would like to think VAR means we will get more decisions in our favour at places like Old Trafford but I have a horrible feeling it will go the other way. Any goal we score is bound to have a tiny shirt pull or something somewhere in the build up. Likewise I expect the big sides to get more penalties for the slightest of things that usually went missed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    You would like to think VAR means we will get more decisions in our favour at places like Old Trafford but I have a horrible feeling it will go the other way. Any goal we score is bound to have a tiny shirt pull or something somewhere in the build up. Likewise I expect the big sides to get more penalties for the slightest of things that usually went missed.
    I don't think so and I believe there will be a lot of scrutiny on refs and the FA not to allow that.

    I'm not convinced there's a deliberate bias towards the big clubs, more of a subconscious intimidation. If Saints have a corner in front of the Kop End, it's easy for a ref to pretend he didn't notice a shirt pull and not have 50,000 Scousers screaming for blood. If he sees two or three replays and another official spots it too, that wont happen.

  40. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by stknowle View Post
    It was supposed to be brought in for clear and obvious errors/oversights. Watford handball equaliser in Pellegrino's season. If it cancels sh!t like that out then great. A VAR official watching that in real time/replay picks it up immediately alerts ref. Quick conversation. Goal cancelled.

    It is being used to microscopically examine marginal offsides taking minutes to do so (England Holland; Us Derby) leaving a celebrating set of fans in limbo not knowing if they are about to be let down and an opposite set of fans with the opposite feeling. Its **** and it will ruin/already is ruining the game if its used like this. If you have to look at it more than once its not clear and obvious. Leave it, move on. Goal. On the flip side where it is clear and obvious (Gabbiadini in the final) it's CLEAR AND OBVIOUS therefore easily picked up and goal stands. Don't examine the evidence 20 fecking times playing it back and forth to conclude that the scorer's big toenail looked fractionally offside from one of the angles so no goal and let's restart the game with a ****ing free kick 5 minutes after the 'goal' was scored and forget the fact we've destroyed all rhythm, spontaneity
    and ultimately enjoyment of the game.
    This. Give the VAR ref 30 seconds maximum to rule an offside, etc. If they can't decide by then, then it's not a clear and obvious error and the ref's or assistant ref's original decision holds.

    Simples.

  41. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    You would like to think VAR means we will get more decisions in our favour at places like Old Trafford but I have a horrible feeling it will go the other way. Any goal we score is bound to have a tiny shirt pull or something somewhere in the build up. Likewise I expect the big sides to get more penalties for the slightest of things that usually went missed.
    More likely places where we have less possession will mean opposition are far more likely to be given a soft penalty if there are lots more awarded
    Also I don’t really see it getting rid of hidden bias as it seems you can have too similar incidents one where the ref awards and one where they don’t but you get different outcomes because of blurry ness of clear and obvious in many cases.

  42. #42

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    I fully support VAR. It promotes fairness and reduces referee errors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scully View Post
    I fully support VAR. It promotes fairness and reduces referee errors
    Not all of them though. In last night's game one of the Americans' goals came from a corner that wasn't. The ball was put out of play by an American but a corner was awarded anyway. As the Chileans couldn't defend against centres for toffee it was a gift goal.

  44. #44

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    VAR will just delay games and frustrate fans, manager etc.

    This was given as offside still even after VAR


  45. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scully View Post
    I fully support VAR. It promotes fairness and reduces referee errors
    Of course it won't rdeuce errors. It just pushes the decision onto another referee who isn't at the game and has a much poorer view of the action.

  46. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by skintsaint View Post
    VAR will just delay games and frustrate fans, manager etc.

    This was given as offside still even after VAR

    That's disgraceful and is as good an argument against VAR as you could find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad View Post
    That's disgraceful and is as good an argument against VAR as you could find.
    No it isn't.

    That's like saying Kevin Friend or Lee Mason are arguments against having a referee.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skintsaint View Post
    VAR will just delay games and frustrate fans, manager etc.

    This was given as offside still even after VAR

    Clear example of perspective ****ing things up.
    If the yellow line was parallel with the 6 yard box line he's offside.
    If the yellow line was parallel with the 18 yard line he's miles onside.
    As it is the yellow line they've used shows them dead level.

    If in doubt benefit should always go with the attacker

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    VAR has just turned the Womens World cup into a bit of a farce, French missed a penalty (Var awarded) then blew the whistle again awarded a retake of the penalty because VAR had spotted that the goal keeper had stepped off her line before the ball had been kicked by milliseconds........and she also got booked for stepping off her line by a centimetre.
    We are going to see some funny stuff with this VAR if the rules are applied as they have been in this game where the goalie only just left her line, we could be seeing a few goalies sent off if they commit that crime in a game. you will need a good second goalie because if the shenanigans of flicking the ball at a defenders arm to gain a penalty we are going to see a few more this season and no doubt a few keepers totting up yellows as a result and incurring the 5-10-15 card bans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAY-Z View Post
    Over here in the A-League the first couple of months it was a bit dodgy as everyone was working out the best way to use it

    Later on in the season it worked really well

    One thing to remember is we should never let perfection get in the way of better, so whilst var won’t get every decision right, we will have more correct decisions

    Can't agree with that, still takes half an hour to make a bad decision in A-League. Sick of goals being celebrated, everyone goes back to halfway for the kickoff, THEN the ref indicates VAR looking. Has to be immediate and decision made within (say) 30 seconds or ref's decision stands.

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