Liam Delap

[Chez]

13 minutes ago, Gingeletiss said:

So where does he get this ‘experience’, he has to start somewhere, and if he is good enough he is old enough.

I'm not bothered about experience too much, it's more about having the proof that he can cut it in Premier League football. How do we know he is good enough? I guess that's not for us to establish, and we should just let those in power get on with it, but this is a saints forum, where we look at things in as much detail as we can and it is pretty normal to highlight concerns. 

Even if he is the next Harry Kane - he has that same lack of pace, but eye for goal - took a few years to get going. 

[tajjuk]

7 hours ago, Chez said:

West ham get Scamacca for £30m. 23 year old Italian international, who just scored 16 league goals. 

Perhaps we had no chance of getting him, but if we are considering paying that kind of money for a striker, isnt that the kind of CV we would want?

£35 million to be fair, this Delap deal is reportedly starting around £20 million with add ons, West Ham's deal is starting at £30 million with £5 million add ons.

Also whilst he did score 16 league goals last season, he's not done a huge amount before that. 8 goals the season before and a lot of loans. So he could turn out to be a one season wonder, there are risks with every deal.

Again essentially we have had Shields knowing everything there is to know about Delap, you can't really get much better or thorough scouting than that. 

Also there is the adaptability thing, Delap is used to the weather, culture, speaks the language, and even though he hasn't played PL football he's training with top PL players so will know the pace and power of the league. Scamacca doesn't speak the language, comes from a different culture, different climate and a completely different style of league. 

Edited 24 July, 2022 by tajjuk

[egg]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

I'm not bothered about experience too much, it's more about having the proof that he can cut it in Premier League football. How do we know he is good enough? I guess that's not for us to establish, and we should just let those in power get on with it, but this is a saints forum, where we look at things in as much detail as we can and it is pretty normal to highlight concerns. 

Even if he is the next Harry Kane - he has that same lack of pace, but eye for goal - took a few years to get going. 

Yep, that's more my point. He's done nothing in men's football, and as well as he's done at youth level, he can't make the England under 19 team. For me who looks like a Broja lite - the pace is lacking. If we signed him I'd like to see him as getting exposure gradually with an experienced man coming in and being our main goals hope.

[East Kent Saint]

No deal say ManC , according to the Athletic .

[John B]

6 hours ago, Chez said:

Agreed. He's never gonna to sign for us. 

But when you compare the two, the reported £30m fee seems high for Delap. I guess our head of recruiting has the inside track and can see he could be the next Harry Kane.

If he is going to be the next Harry Kane why would Man City want to sell him  surely if our head of recruiting know that the people at Man City know that too

 

I think they currently want to loan out Delap

[Maggie May]

Delap has massive potential. It would be a mega buy.

[alehouseboys]

You have to consider how a 19 year old would deal with a "£30m" price tag on his head and the pressure that would come with finding the net regularly. And how he'd deal with some of the fuckwits that would quickly get on his back if he wasn't an instant success, or like any top striker, go through a lean spell. That's a lot of weight to carry on the shoulders of a young lad.

[SaintsLoyal]

It doesnt make sense if Man City dont want to sell and hes on a long contract (signed last year) then why has a full transfer offer been made ?

They only seem to be willing to allow him to leave on loan. 

 

[Chez]

1 hour ago, tajjuk said:

£35 million to be fair, this Delap deal is reportedly starting around £20 million with add ons, West Ham's deal is starting at £30 million with £5 million add ons.

Also whilst he did score 16 league goals last season, he's not done a huge amount before that. 8 goals the season before and a lot of loans. So he could turn out to be a one season wonder, there are risks with every deal.

Again essentially we have had Shields knowing everything there is to know about Delap, you can't really get much better or thorough scouting than that. 

Also there is the adaptability thing, Delap is used to the weather, culture, speaks the language, and even though he hasn't played PL football he's training with top PL players so will know the pace and power of the league. Scamacca doesn't speak the language, comes from a different culture, different climate and a completely different style of league. 

All fair points, but the long and short of it is that Scamacca actually scored 16 league goals in 36 games in the Italian top flight - and looked bloody good doing it. Delap, well, your guess is as good as mine if he is the next Harry Kane or Freddie Atu.

As for Shields providing the 'best and most thorough scouting possible', sure, at youth level, but what insight can he provide as to how he will perform at senior level?

Spending £30m on a guy that hasn't really played senior football is as big a risk as you're gonna get, isn't it?

Just to point out that I've no qualms about signing him. But £30m though? Blimey. That's a lot of wedge (I struggle to accept it's real). Not even the big boys dont gamble like that.

Edited 24 July, 2022 by Chez

[Chez]

39 minutes ago, John B said:

If he is going to be the next Harry Kane why would Man City want to sell him  surely if our head of recruiting know that the people at Man City know that too

 

I think they currently want to loan out Delap

Agreed.

I guess the more city don't want him to go the more confidence I have that he's mustard.

 

[coalman]

This all reminds me when we were on the verge of signing Harry Kane from Tottenham for £10million when Poch moved to Spurs.

The trouble with Saints transfers is the more they are talked about in the press the less likely they are to happen. So this one feels dead in the water to me (sadly).

[The Kraken]

9 hours ago, revolution saint said:

On a slightly related note, does Pep actually have a record of playing kids from the academy? Apart from Foden I can’t think of any. Appreciate why he wouldn’t as they play at a higher stakes game but kind of undermines a stance on keeping players you’re unlikely to use.

Perhaps not always in the premier league, but Cole Palmer in particular last season springs to mind. Checking in wiki, he played in a total of 11 games last season in all competitions (I remember him doing well in an FA cup tie on TV). Talk is that, particularly with Sterling gone, Palmer is lined up for more minutes this season.  James McAtee also featured in 6 games. Most other youth got 1-2 games each.

[Toadhall Saint]

Where has £30 m come from?

[Saint Billy]

4 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Where has £30 m come from?

20 mil plus 10 mil add ons presumably rejected. Crazy money for an unproven lad. 

[Saint86]

5 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

20 mil plus 10 mil add ons presumably rejected. Crazy money for an unproven lad. 

And summarily rejected outright by City. 

I cannot see that we're getting him. He's got a long contract and we surely aren't going north of £30m for an unproven player, would be a huge risk for us. 

Edited 24 July, 2022 by Saint86

[Matthew Le God]

13 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

I cannot see that we're getting him. He's got a long contract and we surely aren't going north of £30m for an unproven player, would be a huge risk for us. 

The risk is reduced by it being £20m plus extras. Those extras are paid if he does well and aren't paid if he doesn't perform.

[S-Clarke]

5 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

The risk is reduced by it being £20m plus extras. Those extras are paid if he does well and aren't paid if he doesn't perform.

They've rejected that bid though (supposedly), so we'd have to go even higher with the guaranteed fee and any deal would be north of £30m, which is ridiculous money for a player who has never played mens football, let's be honest.

If we've got north of £30m to spend on a striker, let's go and get someone who has scored goals in a professional league and is able to hit the ground running. a £30m+ deal on a player who is a 'development' project is crazy for us, given that we have no one to get the goals today.

[saint1977]

3 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

They've rejected that bid though (supposedly), so we'd have to go even higher with the guaranteed fee and any deal would be north of £30m, which is ridiculous money for a player who has never played mens football, let's be honest.

If we've got north of £30m to spend on a striker, let's go and get someone who has scored goals in a professional league and is able to hit the ground running. a £30m+ deal on a player who is a 'development' project is crazy for us, given that we have no one to get the goals today.

100% agree with this, but have a bit more faith in SR than I’ve had in the club for a few years that they are actively working on alternatives with more league experience at similar values eg where Reed just focused on Promes or Walcott and nothing happened.

[Charlie Wayman]

13 hours ago, Badger said:

Poor little sod did well to make it to adult life with his limbs intact and without serious brain damage if his old man was using him for throw in practice as that photo suggests.

Post of the Year

[tajjuk]

30 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

He's got a long contract

Might be wrong but I am sure I read that he signed a 3 year contract last year, so in theory only has two years left on his deal. 

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, tajjuk said:

Might be wrong but I am sure I read that he signed a 3 year contract last year, so in theory only has two years left on his deal. 

Expires in 4 years time...

https://www.mancity.com/news/mens/liam-delap-manchester-city-contract-extension-63765063

[Charlie Wayman]

2 hours ago, Maggie May said:

Delap has massive potential. 😍  It would be a mega buy 😂

Where have we heard this claptrap before? At best this would be a speculative punt

As for the alleged £30m bid.... why on earth are the wise old heads on here swallowing this rubbish without question? Use your common sense lads.

Edited 24 July, 2022 by Charlie Wayman

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Where have we heard this claptrap before? 

Livramento... and it was correct

[AlexLaw76]

5 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Livramento... and it was correct

Livramento was good for a period in the season.  We need someone to lead the line all season (or immune to Ralph in many ways), otherwise we are in deep shit

Edited 24 July, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[beatlesaint]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Livramento was good for a period in the season.  We need someone to lead the line all season, otherwise we are in deep shit

Tbf it was Ralph who ran the boy into the ground by not giving him a break then still playing him all the time when he'd had an injury instead of letting him recover properly. 

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Livramento was good for a period in the season.  We need someone to lead the line all season (or immune to Ralph in many ways), otherwise we are in deep shit

We need and immense signing to rival the insane and colossal ones we’ve already had

[S-Clarke]

7 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Livramento... and it was correct

The massive difference with Livramento is that he was a fairly cheap punt, at £5m.

We also didn't run the risk of him needing to hit the ground running from day 1, as we already had KWP to play that role. Fair enough, he did come in and play from the start but as we had KWP already there, moving him out for a period (or losing him to injury) wasn't as big a problem.

[AlexLaw76]

6 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

Tbf it was Ralph who ran the boy into the ground by not giving him a break then still playing him all the time when he'd had an injury instead of letting him recover properly. 

As you say, he needed dropping way before that.  Which is no bad thing at all, he is just a young'un

Edited 24 July, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[Turkish]

Be very surprised if this one happens given Guardiola seems to be personally blocking any permanent move. Loan or nothing by the looks of it

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Turkish said:

Be very surprised if this one happens given Guardiola seems to be personally blocking any permanent move. Loan or nothing by the looks of it

Get him in on Loan and actually buy a Left Back who can start from the off.

[Maggie May]

16 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Where have we heard this claptrap before? At best this would be a speculative punt

As for the alleged £30m bid.... why on earth are the wise old heads on here swallowing this rubbish without question? Use your common sense lads.

Did you not see his dad play? 

[jimmer42]

Much as I hope I'm wrong, Delap won't be coming here in all liklihood. Pep is personally blocking a transfer and I reckon a loan will mean him going to Burnley 

As for the lack of experience comments, if Pep wants to keep him and the City scouting and youth setup want him and we want him with the former close  links to City youth setup and scouting  its probably a fair assumption that he's not going to be a lemon

[The Cat]

15 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

Tbf it was Ralph who ran the boy into the ground by not giving him a break then still playing him all the time when he'd had an injury instead of letting him recover properly. 

The medical team would have had to say he was match fit to play or he wouldn't have been picked, so your beef really falls with them rather than Hasenhuttl.

The only way I'd agree that he was being overplayed would be the games when he tired with 20 minutes to go and could maybe have been subbed off earlier. Other than that I don't see where the issue is.

The bad injury at Brighton was just one of those unfortunate ones. Nothing anyone could have done about that.

[The Cat]

17 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Get him in on Loan and actually buy a Left Back who can start from the off.

Do we need to buy a LB when we have KWP and Perraud who can play there?

I would imagine we'll loan a full back to cover the injuries.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, The Cat said:

Do we need to buy a LB when we have KWP and Perraud who can play there?

I would imagine we'll loan a full back to cover the injuries.

KwP can probably RB, yes?

Edited 24 July, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[Sarisbury Saint]

20 minutes ago, The Cat said:

The medical team would have had to say he was match fit to play or he wouldn't have been picked, so your beef really falls with them rather than Hasenhuttl.

The only way I'd agree that he was being overplayed would be the games when he tired with 20 minutes to go and could maybe have been subbed off earlier. Other than that I don't see where the issue is.

The bad injury at Brighton was just one of those unfortunate ones. Nothing anyone could have done about that.

You could see he was tiring earlier each game, at that point he should have been given a break. Ralph should have seen it if everyone else did.

Edited 24 July, 2022 by Sarisbury Saint

[S-Clarke]

45 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

Tbf it was Ralph who ran the boy into the ground by not giving him a break then still playing him all the time when he'd had an injury instead of letting him recover properly. 

Wasn't he sidelined for quite a few weeks with a meniscus injury? I don't remember him playing with an injury.

You can't blame an ACL due to overplaying or being run into the ground, they are freak injuries which can happen to anyone at anytime if you twist wrong when you fall. 

[FarehamSaintJames]

If we’ve bid £30m (total) on an unproven player and it’s been rejected, I see that as being our ceiling.

We move on. (Although I’d have liked to see him down here).

[beatlesaint]

12 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Wasn't he sidelined for quite a few weeks with a meniscus injury? I don't remember him playing with an injury.

You can't blame an ACL due to overplaying or being run into the ground, they are freak injuries which can happen to anyone at anytime if you twist wrong when you fall. 

No, I’m not blaming the ACL on anything except bad luck but after he had that meniscus injury he was never quite the same when he came back which suggests to me he should have been given longer to fully recover and was either carrying it slightly or worried about it. I think Ralph had the nerve to criticise England for playing him in an U21 match for the full 90 minutes which is ironic given he could never see he was tiring in the last 25-30 mins of games, esp after that injury.

Edited 24 July, 2022 by beatlesaint

[Saint86]

33 minutes ago, Sarisbury Saint said:

You could see he was tiring earlier each game, at that point he should have been given a break. Ralph should have seen it if everyone else did.

So the saints Web logic now is a player tiring means it's Ralph's fault they do an ACL? 🤣I look forward to that gem getting rolled out on here this season whenever a player looks leggy on 70min 🤣

Granted that may not be specifically what you are saying SS (so this isn't aimed at you), but that is the broader context of this conversation and enough people on here have said it / implied it since it happened. It's a non argument.

Re resting, as Clarke has said, he'd had a break for injury already earlier in the season, and it has already been demonstrated that he was rested in the month prior anyway. Also, as others have said, we have a very well paid medical team who's responsibility is the players fitness. If they say a player is fit, that's it. Tiredness is not your typical cause of ACL's!! 

 

Edited 24 July, 2022 by Saint86

[beatlesaint]

9 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

So a player tiring means it's Ralph's fault he did his ACL? 🤣

Nobody has said that 🙄
If you care to read the posts properly the discussion is about him noticeably tiring in games and not being taken off/given a break.

Edited 24 July, 2022 by beatlesaint

[CB Fry]

3 minutes ago, beatlesaint said:

Nobody has said that 🙄

Except people linked Ralph "over playing" him with his injury. As soon as he got injured people on here were giving it the "see? see? he should have been rested more" stuff.

Edited 24 July, 2022 by CB Fry

[Sarisbury Saint]

49 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

So the saints Web logic now is a player tiring means it's Ralph's fault they do an ACL? 🤣I look forward to that gem getting rolled out on here this season whenever a player looks leggy on 70min 🤣

Granted that may not be specifically what you are saying SS (so this isn't aimed at you), but that is the broader context of this conversation and enough people on here have said it / implied it since it happened. It's a non argument.

Re resting, as Clarke has said, he'd had a break for injury already earlier in the season, and it has already been demonstrated that he was rested in the month prior anyway. Also, as others have said, we have a very well paid medical team who's responsibility is the players fitness. If they say a player is fit, that's it. Tiredness is not your typical cause of ACL's!! 

 

Not implying tiredness was the cause.

Ludicrous to blame anyone for that.

The medical team can declare a player fit to play but it’s then down to the manager to recognise when a player is flagging.

Tinos not the only player that starts to flag near the end, but he is very young and will continue to get stronger.

[Saint Garrett]

Thought it was the £11m with £5m adding that was rejected. Not sure why we’d go from £16m to £30m with next bid. That’s bonkers money for someone with no playing experience. 

A loan with an option to buy at £30m maybe, but straight up seems a huge amount of money. 

[Bad Wolf]

That would take our spending to 80 odd million without selling anyone. Can we now stop with the "This board are as tight as the last lot" and "We can't afford to sack Ralph" crap?

[Saint_clark]

4 hours ago, alehouseboys said:

You have to consider how a 19 year old would deal with a "£30m" price tag on his head and the pressure that would come with finding the net regularly. And how he'd deal with some of the fuckwits that would quickly get on his back if he wasn't an instant success, or like any top striker, go through a lean spell. That's a lot of weight to carry on the shoulders of a young lad.

This is something I've been thinking of as well. David McGoldrick once scored 42 goals in 40 reserve games as an 18 year old. Reserve and youth football for the best/richest team in the world is completely different to the pressure of being a clubs record signing star striker expected to score enough goals to keep them in the Premier League. 

[Chez]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

Livramento... and it was correct

 potential, mega, low risk?

[SambaMaverick]

48 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

This is something I've been thinking of as well. David McGoldrick once scored 42 goals in 40 reserve games as an 18 year old. Reserve and youth football for the best/richest team in the world is completely different to the pressure of being a clubs record signing star striker expected to score enough goals to keep them in the Premier League. 

Exactly, it's rolling the dice in a way - something we had to do when we didn't have a pot to piss in.

If we're going to shop in the £30m market at last, why not go for someone ~22-25 who has a few good seasons behind them in senior football. It's not like they aren't going to have a resale value two or three years down the line.

Edited 24 July, 2022 by SambaMaverick

[AlexLaw76]

 

[saintwbu]

Get him in on loan and spend the cash on Broja 🙏🏻