Should Saints sack Tonda?

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

The punishment waa clearly way over the top. Far too much self flagelation on here. We've been excessively dealt with so ffs start fighting back instead of meekly submitting and ac epting more pile on.

It what way was it over the top? 
 

The lack of understanding is incredible. The play offs were ruled to be a separate competition, once the first leg was played there was absolutely no other realistic sporting sanction available. 

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It what way was it over the top? 

Maybe ask the ex head of the FA (and many other high profile people in the game), who is/are of the same opinion? Or is that too much "whataboutery" for the forum thought police...?

Edited 2 hours ago by trousers

[Wade Garrett]

13 minutes ago, saintant said:

The punishment waa clearly way over the top. Far too much self flagelation on here. We've been excessively dealt with so ffs start fighting back instead of meekly submitting and ac epting more pile on.

Fight back like cry like a fucking baby over the punishment, that even one of the best lawyers around could do nothing about?

[egg]

29 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

It what way was it over the top? 
 

The lack of understanding is incredible. The play offs were ruled to be a separate competition, once the first leg was played there was absolutely no other realistic sporting sanction available. 

Yep...and the club offered up no credible sanction for the EFL to hit us with...give them the option of expulsion or a fine was inviting expulsion. We had to have a sporting sanction for a sporting offence like that, and the reality is that points wouldn't have hit us, and having not attempted to steer the panel towards something else (EFL cup ban, for example) i can't see that else they could do. It seems like we payed a game of chicken with them, and lost badly. 

[DellBlockH]

40 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

What does "fighting back" actually entail? 

I guess it starts with accepting the punishment we have received but not adding to it unless forced to by the FA.

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep...and the club offered up no credible sanction for the EFL to hit us with...give them the option of expulsion or a fine was inviting expulsion. We had to have a sporting sanction for a sporting offence like that, and the reality is that points wouldn't have hit us, and having not attempted to steer the panel towards something else (EFL cup ban, for example) i can't see that else they could do. It seems like we payed a game of chicken with them, and lost badly. 

That's the key takeaway really. We didn't defend ourselves or offer any form of response to the EFL, we didn't even try to. Some of our antics when we were first charged was school-boy stuff, and the EFL probably made their decision right then.

It's the worst defence ever. 

''Hi Southampton, we've recieved this complaint - care to comment?''

''Hi EFL - This isn't true! Us? No! We're good, we don't have things like that happening! This is not the Southampton Way. Nothing to see here"

''Hi Southampton, we have proof that you have done this''

''Hi EFL - Oh, yeah I think you're right. To help mitigate I'll admit we did it at Oxford and Ipswich too. Can we get a fine and call it a day? I've already had a quiet private chat, outside of this process, with Steve Gibson regarding a financial settlement''

[Nordic Saint]

37 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Fight back like cry like a fucking baby over the punishment, that even one of the best lawyers around could do nothing about?

No, we fight back by not doing what 100% of Pompey and Boro fans want us to and sacking the best manager we've had for years. It's time to stand up to the pressure from those who don't have our best interests at heart.

Edited 2 hours ago by Nordic Saint

[CB Fry]

Honestly insane to me that people can only see sacking Tonda as as submissive act that we'd only do because we're weak and its what Pompey or Boro might want us to do.

His fuck ups have embarrassed the club, damaged the brand of the club in the community and to sponsors and cost us a very good shot at two hundred odd million quid (and keeping some excellent players).

The idea that he could conceivably be manager next season is fucking insane. Every press conference, every i interview, every game is going to be tarnished with this shit. 

We need to start again. Be strong, take responsibility and clean the club up. 

That's how we "fight back" for fucks sake.

Edited 1 hour ago by CB Fry

[LaptopSaint]

So if I’ve got this right, the Tonda Out crowd want to sack him because he broke the rules, not because of the nature of the punishment. He’s brought shame on the club, and we now need to sit in the stocks and have rotten veg and shit thrown at us. 
 

Presumably you’d all think the same if the punishment had been a £2m fine and 6 point penalty, and we’d beaten Hull on Saturday to get promoted. He broke the rules. Fire him. 
 

The argument that there was no other sporting sanction available is bollocks. Plenty of people in football who are nothing to do with Saints think the punishment is way over the top. So do plenty of lawyers. And the legal precedent the EFL have now saddled themselves with is crazy. 
 

There are practical reasons why we may well have to get rid of Tonda anyway - FA ban or players’ revolt. 
 

But we’ve been walked all over once. Let’s not let it happen again. 
 

 

[BILLYDO1948]

My reaction to the findings was that the man responsible, Tonda, should carry the can, which would have been a huge loss to us. I thought that, together with fine and points deduction would be enough. The severe penalty of removal from the play off final, in my mind, removed that as an option. If he is sanctioned that’s going to make it very difficult when an FA sweetheart team is found guilty of a similar misdemeanour and, say, sits on top of the league 10 points clear. What would they do?

[Ken Tone]

Regardless of whether we should sack eckert, it seems to me that the club don't want to. They could easily have done so by now, citing misconduct, damage to the club's public image etc.

Feels like they're waiting to see if he suspended by the  FA and if not .....   

[Harry_SFC]

https://www.thetimes.com/sport/football/article/tonda-eckert-southampton-spygate-play-offs-dn722kv26

Interesting article in the the times regarding how spying is seen as "the norm" in Germany. 

[LiberalCommunist]

Weather the storm. Fuck the EFL. Fuck the FA.

Lets drop the son in law tag. Fuck 'em.

[Harry_SFC]

20 minutes ago, LaptopSaint said:

So if I’ve got this right, the Tonda Out crowd want to sack him because he broke the rules, not because of the nature of the punishment. He’s brought shame on the club, and we now need to sit in the stocks and have rotten veg and shit thrown at us. 
 

Presumably you’d all think the same if the punishment had been a £2m fine and 6 point penalty, and we’d beaten Hull on Saturday to get promoted. He broke the rules. Fire him. 
 

The argument that there was no other sporting sanction available is bollocks. Plenty of people in football who are nothing to do with Saints think the punishment is way over the top. So do plenty of lawyers. And the legal precedent the EFL have now saddled themselves with is crazy. 
 

There are practical reasons why we may well have to get rid of Tonda anyway - FA ban or players’ revolt. 
 

But we’ve been walked all over once. Let’s not let it happen again. 
 

 

I've not yet spoken to one non Saints fan who thinks we deserved to be kicked out.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

I reckon the key factor with all this is going to be how the FA interpret and deal with the "bullying" allegations.

In the eyes of the FA, this is essentially what differentiates Eckert's case and Bielsa's (and, I repeat for the umpteenth time... no, it shouldn't matter to the FA that one of the governing body's they oversee have a 72 hour rule on spying and others don't...)

So if they sanction Eckert, it'll be due to the additional "bullying" aspect.

Regarding that, whilst not wishing to underplay bullying (it's an awful thing to partake in), I do wonder if there's a cultural element at play here. We deal with customers from many nations at my company and when you're dealing with Germans (and the Dutch, and South Africans, to name a few), they typically come across as very terse and even 'rude' in their conversations. But you get used to it because it's 'just the way they are' culturally. 

Could it be that Tonda's "bullying" is a misinterpretation of him being 'matter of fact' and un-nuanced (a 'lost in translation' kinda thing?) Maybe, maybe not, but it *could* be a mitigating factor, if only partially....

"you vill obey orders"

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

I reckon the key factor with all this is going to be how the FA interpret and deal with the "bullying" allegations.

In the eyes of the FA, this is essentially what differentiates Eckert's case and Bielsa's (and, I repeat for the umpteenth time... no, it shouldn't matter to the FA that one of the governing body's they oversee have a 72 hour rule on spying and others don't...)

So if they sanction Eckert, it'll be due to the additional "bullying" aspect.

Regarding that, whilst not wishing to underplay bullying (it's an awful thing to partake in), I do wonder if there's a cultural element at play here. We deal with customers from many nations at my company and when you're dealing with Germans (and the Dutch, and South Africans, to name a few), they typically come across as very terse and even 'rude' in their conversations. But you get used to it because it's 'just the way they are' culturally. 

Could it be that Tonda's "bullying" is a misinterpretation of him being 'matter of fact' and un-nuanced (a 'lost in translation' kinda thing?) Maybe, maybe not, but it *could* be a mitigating factor, if only partially....

We have all seen his pressers and his demeanour on the touchline. He is not a touch feely guy and tends to keep his emotions in check. As I have said before, texts can come across as a bit full on, hence emojis. Eckert doesn’t strike me as an emoji guy either, so imagine that this has more to do with how he comes across rather than bullying.

[Forester]

47 minutes ago, LaptopSaint said:

So if I’ve got this right, the Tonda Out crowd want to sack him because he broke the rules, not because of the nature of the punishment. He’s brought shame on the club, and we now need to sit in the stocks and have rotten veg and shit thrown at us. 
 

Presumably you’d all think the same if the punishment had been a £2m fine and 6 point penalty, and we’d beaten Hull on Saturday to get promoted. He broke the rules. Fire him. 
 

The argument that there was no other sporting sanction available is bollocks. Plenty of people in football who are nothing to do with Saints think the punishment is way over the top. So do plenty of lawyers. And the legal precedent the EFL have now saddled themselves with is crazy. 
 

There are practical reasons why we may well have to get rid of Tonda anyway - FA ban or players’ revolt. 
 

But we’ve been walked all over once. Let’s not let it happen again. 
 

 

This is a powerful argument but I draw the opposite conclusion, precisely because of the point you make in penultimate paragraph.  I fear he will have lost the magic in the eyes of the players (to say the least), and cannot imagine anything other than a long ban coming up from FA.  And so it becomes a bit of a non-choice.

[Wade Garrett]

56 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

No, we fight back by not doing what 100% of Pompey and Boro fans want us to and sacking the best manager we've had for years. It's time to stand up to the pressure from those who don't have our best interests at heart.

Totally disagree.

[Wade Garrett]

58 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

That's the key takeaway really. We didn't defend ourselves or offer any form of response to the EFL, we didn't even try to. Some of our antics when we were first charged was school-boy stuff, and the EFL probably made their decision right then.

It's the worst defence ever. 

''Hi Southampton, we've recieved this complaint - care to comment?''

''Hi EFL - This isn't true! Us? No! We're good, we don't have things like that happening! This is not the Southampton Way. Nothing to see here"

''Hi Southampton, we have proof that you have done this''

''Hi EFL - Oh, yeah I think you're right. To help mitigate I'll admit we did it at Oxford and Ipswich too. Can we get a fine and call it a day? I've already had a quiet private chat, outside of this process, with Steve Gibson regarding a financial settlement''

The evidence against us was overwhelming.  Why can’t people see this?

 

[Whitey Grandad]

Just now, Wade Garrett said:

The evidence against us was overwhelming.  Why can’t people see this?

 

It certainly overwhelmed you.

[Wade Garrett]

53 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Honestly insane to me that people can only see sacking Tonda as as submissive act that we'd only do because we're weak and its what Pompey or Boro might want us to do.

His fuck ups have embarrassed the club, damaged the brand of the club in the community and to sponsors and cost us a very good shot at two hundred odd million quid (and keeping some excellent players).

The idea that he could conceivably be manager next season is fucking insane. Every press conference, every i interview, every game is going to be tarnished with this shit. 

We need to start again. Be strong, take responsibility and clean the club up. 

That's how we "fight back" for fucks sake.

This 100%.

[Wade Garrett]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It certainly overwhelmed you.

Texts, WhatsApps, photos, witnesses, statements and probably more we don’t know about.

So no, it hasn’t fucking overwhelmed me.

[pimpin4rizeal]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

Honestly insane to me that people can only see sacking Tonda as as submissive act that we'd only do because we're weak and its what Pompey or Boro might want us to do.

His fuck ups have embarrassed the club, damaged the brand of the club in the community and to sponsors and cost us a very good shot at two hundred odd million quid (and keeping some excellent players).

The idea that he could conceivably be manager next season is fucking insane. Every press conference, every i interview, every game is going to be tarnished with this shit. 

We need to start again. Be strong, take responsibility and clean the club up. 

That's how we "fight back" for fucks sake.

Getting rid of him does nothing good at all fron a football only perspective though does it ? We where only in the play off positions in the first place because of his amazing results, it’s unlikely any other manager woukd have done as well. 
 

I find it absurd that fans would rather sack someone who had us going into the play offs 20 games unbeaten just to  spin the wheel of fortune on another sports republic managerial decision .. it’s the last year of parachute payments why on earth take that chance when we have a proven man here already ?

Edited 46 minutes ago by pimpin4rizeal

[suewhistle]

What weighs on my mind is the sheer bloody stupidity. Did the manager or anyone at the club conduct a risk analysis and cost benefit analysis or was the idea so normalised in their minds that "everyone does it", which, apart from the EFL does seem to be the case. Did they assume points and a fine? There's plenty of people on here who will know that assuming is fatal to judgement making.

The actual execution of the offence was also incompetent. How about some binoculars and telephoto lenses and a bit of subterfuge? Put on a hi-viz or carry some shears or something!

As for the morality and seriousness of the cheating, it doesn't seem that Gibson was too worried about the offence to the extent of building a fence or growing a hedge. Nor does it seem to concern other leagues. Having only played at a level involving twice a week training do teams only practice secret stuff in the last 72 hours? What about 74 hours? Mind you, this goes back to the benefits, which seem pretty paltry. They've got a season of video to pore over and any change on the pitch needs a reaction. That's where Russell Martin was so crap, stuck in his rut of 'process'..

As said above, the players' opinions matter, and they can't be very pleased with their manager or the club.

 

[Morse]

I dont buy this 'he embarrassed the club' thing. Nobody outside of Southampton and Middlesbrough gives a shit about this. Once next season is underway it will be old news. 

Tonda is our best chance of promotion next season, why change? 

[Eire Saint]

1 hour ago, LaptopSaint said:

So if I’ve got this right, the Tonda Out crowd want to sack him because he broke the rules, not because of the nature of the punishment. He’s brought shame on the club, and we now need to sit in the stocks and have rotten veg and shit thrown at us. 
 

Presumably you’d all think the same if the punishment had been a £2m fine and 6 point penalty, and we’d beaten Hull on Saturday to get promoted. He broke the rules. Fire him. 
 

The argument that there was no other sporting sanction available is bollocks. Plenty of people in football who are nothing to do with Saints think the punishment is way over the top. So do plenty of lawyers. And the legal precedent the EFL have now saddled themselves with is crazy. 
 

There are practical reasons why we may well have to get rid of Tonda anyway - FA ban or players’ revolt. 
 

But we’ve been walked all over once. Let’s not let it happen again. 
 

 

This is it in a nutshell. Before the sanction there was a lot of joking about the situation, including from our own players (THB, prime suspect). Yeah we knew we spied, we heard it wasn't the first time. Anyone calling for Tonda to go then? The EFL make an over the top judgement based on heavy influence and now it's the crime of the century?

Keep him (if we can) and we'll do well this season. Peretz declared his love for him, so players may be still on board. Alternative is rolling the dice on a journeyman manager.

[Midfield_General]

58 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

https://www.thetimes.com/sport/football/article/tonda-eckert-southampton-spygate-play-offs-dn722kv26

Interesting article in the the times regarding how spying is seen as "the norm" in Germany. 

Amazing that no-one at the club realised that we're not in Germany then, really. 

You'd think at least one of them would have noticed. 

[AlexLaw76]

9 minutes ago, Eire Saint said:

This is it in a nutshell. Before the sanction there was a lot of joking about the situation, including from our own players (THB, prime suspect). Yeah we knew we spied, we heard it wasn't the first time. Anyone calling for Tonda to go then? The EFL make an over the top judgement based on heavy influence and now it's the crime of the century?

Keep him (if we can) and we'll do well this season. Peretz declared his love for him, so players may be still on board. Alternative is rolling the dice on a journeyman manager.

They loved him because we were winning most games, they would love Harry Redknapp for the exact same thing

now they have found out that the winning came at a price 

Edited 32 minutes ago by AlexLaw76

[Midfield_General]

Nuno about to become available

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

That's how we "fight back" for fucks sake.

From what I can see. The fight back involves continuing to moan about the punishment, banging on that it’s only the last 72 hours that’s the problem, reminding  everyone it’s legal in a different country, and keeping the bloke whose direct actions have led to us being 4 points behind everyone else before a ball has been kicked. 
 

 

[Simo is back]

As I have said in the Taylor thread imo Tonda's biggest crime was not keeping his circle tight , I like that he tried to use all the tricks he could to get us promoted. 

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, Simo is back said:

As I have said in the Taylor thread imo Tonda's biggest crime was not keeping his circle tight , I like that he tried to use all the tricks he could to get us promoted. 

His biggest crime was systematically break the rules.

[Southner]

https://x.com/i/status/2058858608511582400

[sockeye]

4 minutes ago, Southner said:

https://x.com/i/status/2058858608511582400

Interesting

[Owen The Saints]

1 hour ago, CB Fry said:

Honestly insane to me that people can only see sacking Tonda as as submissive act that we'd only do because we're weak and its what Pompey or Boro might want us to do.

His fuck ups have embarrassed the club, damaged the brand of the club in the community and to sponsors and cost us a very good shot at two hundred odd million quid (and keeping some excellent players).

The idea that he could conceivably be manager next season is fucking insane. Every press conference, every i interview, every game is going to be tarnished with this shit. 

We need to start again. Be strong, take responsibility and clean the club up. 

That's how we "fight back" for fucks sake.

100% agree. Why wait, loads to sort out and be ready for next season. I reckon at least 1 board member was also involved, hence nothing has been done so far. As for the players, we'll have to let those go that don't want to stay and take the money offered. This includes Downes and Archer who wanted a move in the last transfer window and obviously the decent players like THB. I'm led to believe that trying to keep a player could lead to him terminating the contract in-line with a contract clause and move on as an un-attached player. This is real hurt, over and above the punishment handed out.

[Teamsaint1]

2 minutes ago, sockeye said:

Interesting

Wrong thread I suppose, but I wonder if there is a PL or top European first choice slot likely to be available ?
i don’t think he’ll want to be on the bench ( though a massive salary always helps) so it could just be that when it all shakes down we may be his best option or at least one to consider.However, the reported option fee is high for a team that may be struggling to raise cash.