Time to Bin VAR

[Manuel]

More VAR chaos, in the Champions League this time.  They need to keep looking at how and when to use the technology and balance it against ruining the flow of the game.

https://www.bt.com/sport/watch/video/clips/2021/march/in-full-bizarre-scenes-as-haaland-finally-gets-the-goal

[Whitey Grandad]

58 minutes ago, Manuel said:

More VAR chaos, in the Champions League this time.  They need to keep looking at how and when to use the technology and balance it against ruining the flow of the game.

https://www.bt.com/sport/watch/video/clips/2021/march/in-full-bizarre-scenes-as-haaland-finally-gets-the-goal

Totally varcical.

[igsey]

1 hour ago, Manuel said:

More VAR chaos, in the Champions League this time.  They need to keep looking at how and when to use the technology and balance it against ruining the flow of the game.

https://www.bt.com/sport/watch/video/clips/2021/march/in-full-bizarre-scenes-as-haaland-finally-gets-the-goal

Bizarre, yes, but the correct decision was reached for each incident surely? Haaland was fouled, refs didn't spot it and VAR can't intervene until the next time the ball goes out of play - which happened to be a long passage of play, and the ball only went out of play when a goal was scored. They looked at the goal first, deemed that to be a foul so overturned the goal (seems harsh to me but that's how the onfield referee saw it), then went back to review the penalty incident.

Penalty given, keeper clearly off his line to save it, rules say it has to be retaken.

 

Yes it interrupted the flow of the game, and it was a very odd series of events to happen in a row, but what's the alternative? Stop the play every time a striker goes down in the box in case it's a penalty? And give a drop ball or something if it's not? Or ignore it completely because of the amount of time passed, and just deny BVB the goal and ignore the penalty?

[aintforever]

The main problem with VAR is the fact that it is used to correct ‘clear and obvious ‘ errors and not being used to actually make the call IMO.

Referees need to accept the fact that VAR is better placed to make the decision than the person on the pitch and accept their judgement. There are a lot of wrong decisions being given because whilst they are wrong, a clear and obvious error hasn’t been made so VAR let it ride. There is rarely anything clear and obvious in these close decisions.

Also the offside need to take into account the margin of error and give the benefit of doubt in favour of the attacker.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, igsey said:

Bizarre, yes, but the correct decision was reached for each incident surely? Haaland was fouled, refs didn't spot it and VAR can't intervene until the next time the ball goes out of play - which happened to be a long passage of play, and the ball only went out of play when a goal was scored. They looked at the goal first, deemed that to be a foul so overturned the goal (seems harsh to me but that's how the onfield referee saw it), then went back to review the penalty incident.

Penalty given, keeper clearly off his line to save it, rules say it has to be retaken.

 

Yes it interrupted the flow of the game, and it was a very odd series of events to happen in a row, but what's the alternative? Stop the play every time a striker goes down in the box in case it's a penalty? And give a drop ball or something if it's not? Or ignore it completely because of the amount of time passed, and just deny BVB the goal and ignore the penalty?

The complications that you describe are exactly why VAR is a bad idea.

[ChrisPY]

Shocking decision from the VAR not to give City a penalty. 

The problem with having a junior as VAR when there’s a more experienced referee is that they’re rarely going to have the bollocks to overrule them.

Another reason to make the VAR independent to those officiating on the pitch? Think a panel of 3 would work; ex lower league ref (qualified enough to be able to make a competent decision but without the conflict of interest of protecting the PGMOL elite), ex manager, ex player - 3-0 or stick with the on-field decision.

[Manuel]

I agree it's good to get the decisions right, there is a lot at stake.  There is a balance though, the reason it's lucrative is because it's enjoyable to watch.  This sort of fiasco makes it difficult to enjoy for me.  VAR still needs some fine tuning.  

[Whitey Grandad]

57 minutes ago, ChrisPY said:

Shocking decision from the VAR not to give City a penalty. 

The problem with having a junior as VAR when there’s a more experienced referee is that they’re rarely going to have the bollocks to overrule them.

Another reason to make the VAR independent to those officiating on the pitch? Think a panel of 3 would work; ex lower league ref (qualified enough to be able to make a competent decision but without the conflict of interest of protecting the PGMOL elite), ex manager, ex player - 3-0 or stick with the on-field decision.

It looked a clear penalty to me but the camera views don’t show whether or not McCarthy got a faint touch on the ball.

Television doesn’t give the best views.

[aintforever]

18 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It looked a clear penalty to me but the camera views don’t show whether or not McCarthy got a faint touch on the ball.

Television doesn’t give the best views.

Seriously? 

TV gives a miles better view than some fat middle-aged bloke catching a glimpse whilst desperately trying to keep up with play.

The problem is the fact that VAR can’t make the call, they can just over-rule if there is a clear and obvious error.

Edited 10 March, 2021 by aintforever

[ChrisPY]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It looked a clear penalty to me but the camera views don’t show whether or not McCarthy got a faint touch on the ball.

Television doesn’t give the best views.

Far too much emphasis is put on ‘a faint touch on the ball’.

A faint touch on the ball doesn’t mean it’s not a foul. 
No touch on the ball also shouldn’t automatically result in a foul (plenty of examples of neither players being near the ball and just a coming together).

Idiots who don’t understand the game are ruining football with their implementation of the laws.

[stevy777_x]

For god sake, VAR is not the issue.

It s the crappy rules behind it and the inept referees that are the problem including those who look at the monitor.

once common sense is used when they review actions, we won t be talking about VAR.

I sure do not want to go back to the time where referees were even worse on the pitch because they would be implementing the same rules that exist today and get it even more wrong

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

Seriously? 

TV gives a miles better view than some fat middle-aged bloke catching a glimpse whilst desperately trying to keep up with play.

The problem is the fact that VAR can’t make the call, they can just over-rule if there is a clear and obvious error.

You might very well think that but the picture that you think you see is not what actually happens.

In an earlier life I did a lot of research into television signal processing and transmission and was a representative on international technical committees and have several papers published at international conferences.

These referees are not ‘ some fat middle aged bloke’, they are as fit as the players and are regularly tested for their performance levels.

[maysie]

25 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You might very well think that but the picture that you think you see is not what actually happens.

In an earlier life I did a lot of research into television signal processing and transmission and was a representative on international technical committees and have several papers published at international conferences.

These referees are not ‘ some fat middle aged bloke’, they are as fit as the players and are regularly tested for their performance levels.

Sorry Whitey can you explain what this means?

Are we actually being beamed pictures of a load of lookalikes?

Is it like a dodgy crimewatch reconstruction?

[Noodles34]

8 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You might very well think that but the picture that you think you see is not what actually happens.

In an earlier life I did a lot of research into television signal processing and transmission and was a representative on international technical committees and have several papers published at international conferences.

These referees are not ‘ some fat middle aged bloke’, they are as fit as the players and are regularly tested for their performance levels.

They are as fit as the players? Is that a joke?

that fat cunt Mason, is as fit as JWP?

seriously . 

[Turkish]

8 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You might very well think that but the picture that you think you see is not what actually happens.

In an earlier life I did a lot of research into television signal processing and transmission and was a representative on international technical committees and have several papers published at international conferences.

These referees are not ‘ some fat middle aged bloke’, they are as fit as the players and are regularly tested for their performance levels.

Obviously 

[SKD]

10 hours ago, ChrisPY said:

Far too much emphasis is put on ‘a faint touch on the ball’.

A faint touch on the ball doesn’t mean it’s not a foul. 
No touch on the ball also shouldn’t automatically result in a foul (plenty of examples of neither players being near the ball and just a coming together).

Idiots who don’t understand the game are ruining football with their implementation of the laws.

You’re absolutely spot on with this. 
 

There seems to be so much emphasis on ‘did he touch the ball’ and none on ‘is there enough contact for him to go down’. 
 

Either way, last night was about as clear a penalty as you’ll see. It’s not ‘VAR’s fault’ it’s is idiots watching the reply’s. 

[Heisenberg]

These things tend to even out.

We got lucky yesterday, but feel we are still owed 1-2 more

I prefer games where we can blame VAR/REFS

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, Noodles34 said:

They are as fit as the players? Is that a joke?

that fat cunt Mason, is as fit as JWP?

seriously . 

 Doubt if he’d duck out of the way of a free kick, and you never know, he might a actually stop the opposition playing through our midfield once in a while. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, SKD said:

 

Either way, last night was about as clear a penalty as you’ll see. It’s not ‘VAR’s fault’ it’s is idiots watching the reply’s. 

VAR is the idiot watching the reply. 

 

[redkeith]

I think we got away with it last night because the both had black boots on.

Any contact was foot to foot, which wasn't  so clear as if orange boots had connected with Alan Ball White boots

[LiberalCommunist]

I don't think we got away with it. I think we just been gifted the one mistake we didn't need. I have never seen so much media coverage of a var mistake. I thought it was over the top last night, starting at the HT interlude, but now we are the flag ship of var's beneficial decisions today. Peps statement was damning, considering they won at a canter. Someone else piped up that we seem to complain a lot about decisions recently, but also get the lions share. A dozen games with seemingly nothing going for us, and now we get this one stapled to our bloody forehead. Unbelievable. I thought Moss had a pretty decent game, but today has made me feel the conspiracy is amplified. Can see us getting shafted on Sunday, just to add fuel to this madness. Tin hat at the ready. 

[East Kent Saint]

VAR has slowed the game , spoiled celebrating and caused more controversy than the on field refs so far . Failed to solve penalty decisions and turned offsides into a ridiculous lottery based on parts of the body.

Goal line tech works , no dispute .

[Chapel End]

8 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 Doubt if he’d duck out of the way of a free kick, and you never know, he might a actually stop the opposition playing through our midfield once in a while. 

My god you do talk some utter crap, tell us your problem with JWP or just your problem 

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, Chapel End said:

My god you do talk some utter crap, tell us your problem with JWP or just your problem 

I’ve a problem with a player bottling it and ducking out of the way of a free kick. Sums up the mentality of the club and a large section of the fan base that people accept it. 

[saintwbu]

6 hours ago, LiberalCommunist said:

I don't think we got away with it. I think we just been gifted the one mistake we didn't need. I have never seen so much media coverage of a var mistake. I thought it was over the top last night, starting at the HT interlude, but now we are the flag ship of var's beneficial decisions today. Peps statement was damning, considering they won at a canter. Someone else piped up that we seem to complain a lot about decisions recently, but also get the lions share. A dozen games with seemingly nothing going for us, and now we get this one stapled to our bloody forehead. Unbelievable. I thought Moss had a pretty decent game, but today has made me feel the conspiracy is amplified. Can see us getting shafted on Sunday, just to add fuel to this madness. Tin hat at the ready. 

Came on to see if anyone was saying things like this. Just seen it come on SSN about ‘what next for VAR’ with a focus on a penalty that wasn’t given to the Champions elect in a game they went on to win 5-2. Where was this coverage when Matt Cash did his best David De Gea impression against us? Or when Dendoncker thought he was playing basketball. I don’t remember other Premier League managers getting questions in press conferences about those decisions.

Edited 12 March, 2021 by saintwbu

[Turkish]

Interestingly we’re net neutral when it comes to VAR this season 

altbough it doesn’t take into account obvious errors like the penalties in the wolves and villa games or the offside in the home game v villa which although weren’t given were impacted by VAR. it also doesn’t include the cock up at Leeds with goal Disallowed 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.espn.com/soccer/english-premier-league/story/4182135/how-var-decisions-affected-every-premier-league-club-in-2020-21%3fplatform=amp

Edited 8 April, 2021 by Turkish

[Whitey Grandad]

10 hours ago, Turkish said:

Interestingly we’re net neutral when it comes to VAR this season 

altbough it doesn’t take into account obvious errors like the penalties in the wolves and villa games or the offside in the home game v villa which although weren’t given were impacted by VAR. it also doesn’t include the cock up at Leeds with goal Disallowed 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.espn.com/soccer/english-premier-league/story/4182135/how-var-decisions-affected-every-premier-league-club-in-2020-21%3fplatform=amp

Interesting, but doesn’t take into account the net effect of these decisions in terms of points won or lost during the games.

[Saint86]

10 hours ago, Turkish said:

Interestingly we’re net neutral when it comes to VAR this season 

Although it doesn’t take into account obvious errors like the penalties in the wolves and villa games or the offside in the home game v villa which although weren’t given were impacted by VAR. it also doesn’t include the cock up at Leeds with goal Disallowed 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.espn.com/soccer/english-premier-league/story/4182135/how-var-decisions-affected-every-premier-league-club-in-2020-21%3fplatform=amp

I wouldn't bin of VAR as some are calling for. Any saints fan who says this should be shot imo - you only have to think about incidents like the Docoure handball, Charlie's Park life rant, or Gabbi's Cup Final hattrick.... There is no way you get rid of VAR tO go back to stuff like that 😱

But the whole thing is very arbitrary so whilst the article you shared is interesting, I also agree that it is quite flawed. Just for example take the Chelsea 3-3 game - neither Werner's handball, nor the offside assist were even reviewed by VAR.

Other incidents are numerous this season - even simple things like the Leicester game's opening goal, which was a clear and blatant foul in the build up. And like you've said, vs Villa we were stitched (to the tune of a net 3 goal swing imo), and the Wolves penalty decisions were a farce. Leeds is another good example, and even the United game (where i accept it would have made little material difference) with the offside and red card / penalty etc. (Also, did anyone see the ridiculous penalty united were awarded last night vs Granada?!?!)

To surmise - I reject utterly the notion that saints come out anywhere near "neutral" on refereeing decisions this season. 😅 I would be very interested to see a breakdown per game of major refereeing decisions for/against. Maybe next season we keep one (similar to the match prep time thread).

Edited 9 April, 2021 by Saint86

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

I wouldn't bin of VAR as some are calling for. Any saints fan who says this should be shot imo - you only have to think about incidents like the Docoure handball, Charlie's Park life rant, or Gabbi's Cup Final hattrick.... There is no way you get rid of VAR tO go back to stuff like that 😱

But the whole thing is very arbitrary so whilst the article you shared is interesting, I also agree that it is quite flawed. Just for example take the Chelsea 3-3 game - neither Werner's handball, nor the offside assist were even reviewed by VAR.

Other incidents are numerous this season - even simple things like the Leicester game's opening goal, which was a clear and blatant foul in the build up. And like you've said, vs Villa we were stitched (to the tune of a net 3 goal swing imo), and the Wolves penalty decisions were a farce. Leeds is another good example, and even the United game (where i accept it would have made little material difference) with the offside and red card / penalty etc. (Also, did anyone see the ridiculous penalty united were awarded last night vs Granada?!?!)

To surmise - I reject utterly the notion that saints come out anywhere near "neutral" on refereeing decisions this season. 😅 I would be very interested to see a breakdown per game of major refereeing decisions for/against. Maybe next season we keep one (similar to the match prep time thread).

Yep, would agree with this, we certainly have had a fair few big decisions against us by refs. Maybe we’ll get a big one go for us in a if a big game 😉

I suppose this list is just what VAR decisions have been overturned, it doesn’t include dubious onfield decisions being upheld by VAR such as the wolves And VIlla penalties.

[Dark Munster]

Wolves denied by this "offside". Time to change the rule to use boots only. 

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

Wolves denied by this "offside". Time to change the rule to use boots only. 

How is that offside? It’s insane 

[S-Clarke]

21 minutes ago, Dark Munster said:

Wolves denied by this "offside". Time to change the rule to use boots only. 

Yeah, exactly. It's all getting a little bit ridiculous now.

That's not clear and obvious to me, just let it stand.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Dark Munster said:

Wolves denied by this "offside". Time to change the rule to use boots only. 

Exactly which part of his shirt sleeve are they looking at?

[Kingsland Codger]

There’s nothing wrong with the ‘V’ bit - it’s the ‘AR’ part that is causing all the problems.

[Dark Munster]

1 hour ago, Kingsland Codger said:

There’s nothing wrong with the ‘V’ bit - it’s the ‘AR’ part that is causing all the problems.

'Arsehole'?

[OttawaSaint]

3 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Exactly which part of his shirt sleeve are they looking at?

Even if his sleeve puts him off, look at the ball! They don’t have adequate technology to freeze the action the exact moment the ball was kicked. Makes measuring so precisely at the other end completely pointless.

[SKD]

9 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Wolves denied by this "offside". Time to change the rule to use boots only. 

It’s beyond a joke, they’re looking for stuff that isn’t there. it seems now that level is considered offside. 
 

Personally, I wouldn’t change the rule but I’d remove the lines. If you can’t see clearly either way without the lines, onside move on. 
 

Yes, they may get some wrong when analysed, but I’d rather that than what’s currently going on. 

 

[John B]

Earlier, Wolves had been denied a goal when the video assistant referee ruled that Daniel Podence's arm was fractionally offside before he crossed for Willian Jose to head in.

 

Seems crazy to me it is football not armball what advantage does the player have in this situation as surely he is not going to score with his arm

 

Like somebody mentioned earlier it should depend where the players feet are and it is not fair on players with large beer guts

[LiberalCommunist]

It feels like time to ask, which made you feel worse? When the Watford player used his hand to score, and nobody saw nothing. Or when multiple officials glare at a monitor, then the goal last night is ruled offside. I prefer the sport before var contaminated it. At least it felt honestly dishonest. 

[John B]

2 minutes ago, LiberalCommunist said:

It feels like time to ask, which made you feel worse? When the Watford player used his hand to score, and nobody saw nothing. Or when multiple officials glare at a monitor, then the goal last night is ruled offside. I prefer the sport before var contaminated it. At least it felt honestly dishonest. 

I don't think it was dishonest it was just like life sometimes things go right sometimes they do not and it is impossible for refs to be right every time

[stknowle]

Like someone said further up the thread it should not be binned off purely because travesties like Doucoure handball and Gabbiadini 'offside' would be enabled to return. It is however so feckin frustrating the way the tw@ts are using it for these interminable offside inquests. Week after week decent goals are scored players celebrate and then it's "hold on, they're just checking......oooh that's close, you know what I think they might be going to overrule that.........they've asked (insert name of fat unfit official) to go and look at that which generally suggests...........oh hold on he's looking at it again...and again.....a-n-d a-g-a-i-n........................(TV mime)..............He's overruled it, free kick" It is utter utter bollocks completely ruins the game to the point it's barely worth watching and it has to change - no fucking lines no wind and rewind, just one look by the VAR and if it looks transparently offside then it gets pulled up, if it doesn't nothing is said and they just carry on.

[Whitey Grandad]

7 hours ago, OttawaSaint said:

Even if his sleeve puts him off, look at the ball! They don’t have adequate technology to freeze the action the exact moment the ball was kicked. Makes measuring so precisely at the other end completely pointless.

This is the point. The television view is not accurate enough to make such hairline decisions. The timing of the pass is never questioned and those lines last night didn’t look truly at right angles to me. I know there’s perspective but I think they favoured the defender.

If there is the slightest doubt they should butt out.

[Patrick Bateman]

12 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Wolves denied by this "offside". Time to change the rule to use boots only. 

Plus the ball is blurred so has it already been kicked? It's stupid. 

[aintforever]

13 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Wolves denied by this "offside". Time to change the rule to use boots only. 

Going from the boots or anywhere else won’t make any difference, they just need to allow for the margin of error of the person pausing the video and give the benefit of doubt to the attacker.

Edited 10 April, 2021 by aintforever

[JustinSFC]

13 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Wolves denied by this "offside". Time to change the rule to use boots only. 

If they're going by that red line then they have to go back to when the ball actually leaves Semedo's foot. imo. 

[Whitey Grandad]

33 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

If they're going by that red line then they have to go back to when the ball actually leaves Semedo's foot. imo. 

But when is the ball ‘kicked’? When it is first touched by the boot or when it has actually left the boot?

[skintsaint]

17 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

Wolves denied by this "offside". Time to change the rule to use boots only. 

Joke

[stknowle]

Yawn, just happened again in Liverpool game. Total load of utter cr@p, as if designed to destroy the game.

[OttawaSaint]

Another one! Liverpool this time. Ruining the game!

[OttawaSaint]

Almost like malicious compliance at this point. We wanted VAR to avoid egregious mistakes like Dacoure etc but they’re coming back with “right! You want everything checked the the mm! You wanted this!”.

There have been some wonderful goals chalked off for this nonsense. Ruining the game.